For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (IGN)

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

That was a nice "I have a dream" speech. At the end of day, you still represent a very, very small minority of gaming base while the majority is generating record profits.

LOL well hey I can dream right? lol

Maybe the sim/realistic basketball community is smaller than the casuals, but which one is more important to basketball respect and credibility -- something that does have a trickle down marketing effect. Think about it - NBA Live fell off not because of lack of options, but because GAMEPLAY was/is so unrealistic and didn't feel like basketball. The fall off didn't happen at once, it was gradual from year to year. But the force behind the fall off directly correlated with users losing respect for the gameplay, the company, and the company's ability to produce quality/realistic basketball gameplay. 2K is showing the same colors -- a disregard for the sim community and the elements that made the game great, an ego that's grown too big, and a disbelief that the status quo can ever change. This is how dynasties fall -- by losing their way. Also according to ya'll and the dynamics of business, I guess Mike Wang is just a "yes man" with zero say, so why should we even have faith in his ability to produce quality gameplay at this point?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

But the force behind the fall off directly correlated with users losing respect for the gameplay, the company, and the company's ability to produce quality/realistic basketball gameplay. 2K is showing the same colors -- a disregard for the sim community and the elements that made the game great, an ego that's grown too big, and a disbelief that the status quo can ever change. This is how dynasties fall -- by losing their way.

Go ask Madden, FIFA and NHL fans if they'd like sim offline modes as deep as Myleague/MMyGM, and all the settings, and sim gameplay features like ACE.

[4xChamp]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Exactly, people need to take responsibility for why some of these things continue to exist in games. Micro-transactions exist because people complained that grinding was too time consuming and that they would be open to paying a small fee to upgrade faster, that's how it started in 2k, gamers now want to be a 99 a week after a game release.

we did pay 20 bucks to become 99's though

[DJ]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

He doesn't post here much (and totally understand why), but it's pretty dang cool that Mike is still connected to OS after all these years. I still remember the pre-developer days of Beluba.

The interview was awesome and Mike does come across as very personable and likeable, which isn't surprising. I always appreciate the work he, OG and Czar put into 2K, even if there's times (like 2K19) I'm not in love with the gameplay, I know how hard those guys are working to put forth the best product possible.

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Go ask Madden, FIFA and NHL fans if they'd like sim offline modes as deep as Myleague/MMyGM, and all the settings, and sim gameplay features like ACE.

I didn't mean "dynasties" as in dynasty mode...

MyLEAGUE/MyGM is one mode of many.... Pro Am & Park gameplay has become a joke due to godlike shooters.

[jk31]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I didn't mean "dynasties" as in dynasty mode...

MyLEAGUE/MyGM is one mode of many.... Pro Am & Park gameplay has become a joke due to godlike shooters.

Also myleague has Lots of problems. Play 2 or more years of it and then you See that this Mode is flawed... you need to control All 30 Teams or else you cannot have any Good experience.

[splashmountain]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

That was a nice "I have a dream" speech. At the end of day, you still represent a very, very small minority of gaming base while the majority is generating record profits.

This is the exact same thing that nba Live's team thought until...... the only reason that 2k isnt being challenged is because no one else is even trying to make a legit basketball game. Live had to weather the storm of not just 2k, but 2 or 3 other basketball games all going at the same time. 2k has no comp, and this era of thinking suggests that we do whatever the Hype tells us to do. since 2k is still the hyped product. we do that. if that ever starts to die off. 2k will have some serious issues since they have all but left their core fans behind for the money casual fanbase. when things get rough its easier to hunker down with your sim fan base because the arcade lovers wont be there for you. they will be on to the next one.

[splashmountain]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I thought the same thing. Don't get me wrong, people should be able to voice their opinion or expertise on the subject with their corporate heads and not be "yes" men. However, if my boss tells me "This is how we're going to do it, and we appreciate your input.", to me...that's the end of the conversation. I'm going to create the best product that I can while maintaining the company's goals and vision. You think I'm going to give up my good paying job for a small minority of people? Nope...not going to happen. ESPECIALLY if I love what I'm doing, and I enjoy working for the company.

And I'm talking from experience....

you messed up. you just said "ESPECIALLY If I Love what I'm doing"

how can you love what you're doing when what you're doing is counter to what you actually love to do?

if you actually Loved creating a sim basketball game. you wont be in love with creating an arcadeish basketball game. especially when your overheads have told you to shut up and do your job. nothing about that entire setup says creativity.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

you messed up. you just said "ESPECIALLY If I Love what I'm doing"

how can you love what you're doing when what you're doing is counter to what you actually love to do?

if you actually Loved creating a sim basketball game. you wont be in love with creating an arcadeish basketball game. especially when your overheads have told you to shut up and do your job. nothing about that entire setup says creativity.

Let's be real for a moment. People have been complaining about NBA 2k not being a "true simulation" for years and BEFORE the introduction of VC. You know what makes NBA 2K an arcade game? Your bum *** scrubs and cheesers are the ones who make this game arcadish in nature. The people who literally try to find any and all exploits in every single game in order to gain an advantage over their opponents. NBA 2K, at its core, is a solid NBA simulation. When you remove all stupid badges, use custom rosters and sliders, it's currently THE best basketball game on the market when you have "Sim" minded people play the game against each other.

Mike Wang is producing a solid game most years than not, but it's all those crybabies who break the game year after year after year looking for the path of least resistance. Mike has NOTHING to be ashame of when it comes to NBA 2K from a gameplay perspective. Are there technical and/or longevity problems? Sure, but to say he don't have a creative influence on a sport that's pretty much been the same since its creation is a ridiculous comment.

At the end of the day, the bottom line is to turn a profit on their game. Period. Unfortunately, those bums and cheesers that I spoke of earlier are keeping Take Two paid. The "Sim" crowd that wants to play "pure" basketball, run plays, and have realistic stats are not putting Lamborghinis in the CEO's driveway.

[ph33]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

True, and I'm going to put a good portion of the blame on the consumer.When it comes down to it, we're the ones who allow companies to get away with continually being sold an increasingly monetized product without a corresponding increase in quality.Until something happens to change that situation(i.e. strong enough competition to force a rethink, a major industry downturn,etc.) it will be more of the same.

It would be nice if the media helped out a bit. There's some outlets who talk about it, but a lot of the major ones clearly are really casual and don't care to or just don't dig deep enough.

But yeah, the consumer is to blame, there's quite a large silent majority that looks past the micros. Unfortunately there's nothing others can do about it. Protest all they want by not buying it, but it's not stopping the guy next door from casually dropping $20 once in a while.

[roadman]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Job creativity is the #1 reason for staying at a company?

I know plenty of people who put family first(if they have spouse plus kids) over creativity at their present position.

If you accur 3 to 4 weeks vacation time, 401K, kids education, spouses employment, no relocation, these are all factors to stay at a company over creativity. If you are fortunate enough to have another opportunity in your geographical area that is similar in nature to your field, then, yeah, go for it, but then we are getting into personables.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

It would be nice if the media helped out a bit. There's some outlets who talk about it, but a lot of the major ones clearly are really casual and don't care to or just don't dig deep enough.

But yeah, the consumer is to blame, there's quite a large silent majority that looks past the micros. Unfortunately there's nothing others can do about it. Protest all they want by not buying it, but it's not stopping the guy next door from casually dropping $20 once in a while.

Yep, right now with 2K's share in the market, most people will elect to simply deal with it.It will continue until people find something else to invest their time and money in (ex. a new popular game that is less demanding or more fun) or the market crashes hard enough that products can no longer simply get by on name value or hype.

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Let's be real for a moment. People have been complaining about NBA 2k not being a "true simulation" for years and BEFORE the introduction of VC. You know what makes NBA 2K an arcade game? Your bum *** scrubs and cheesers are the ones who make this game arcadish in nature. The people who literally try to find any and all exploits in every single game in order to gain an advantage over their opponents. NBA 2K, at its core, is a solid NBA simulation. When you remove all stupid badges, use custom rosters and sliders, it's currently THE best basketball game on the market when you have "Sim" minded people play the game against each other.

Mike Wang is producing a solid game most years than not, but it's all those crybabies who break the game year after year after year looking for the path of least resistance. Mike has NOTHING to be ashame of when it comes to NBA 2K from a gameplay perspective. Are there technical and/or longevity problems? Sure, but to say he don't have a creative influence on a sport that's pretty much been the same since its creation is a ridiculous comment.

At the end of the day, the bottom line is to turn a profit on their game. Period. Unfortunately, those bums and cheesers that I spoke of earlier are keeping Take Two paid. The "Sim" crowd that wants to play "pure" basketball, run plays, and have realistic stats are not putting Lamborghinis in the CEO's driveway.

I think you're being too soft on 2K. Bums and cheesers will always exist, but it's 100% within their ability and it's their responsibility (if they choose to) to make it a simulation, and it's not that hard. Things like HOF shooting badges should be completely removed, deadeye badges should be removed, zigzag was *supposed* to be removed, but sharps still ziggyzag around screens all day. How about inbound 3 bs in park. Basic stuff.

Mike Wang has plenty to be questioned about. Things like 'why are you letting twitter bums determine what gameplay directions you go in (or at least that's the perception). Why have pure shooters been OP for 3+ years. Honestly people overhype 2K. Do you know how many would people would play a basketball game just if things "made sense" and happened like real basketball? You don't need all the flash, plenty would play just if they thought their skill was being rewarded realistically. Gameplay is huge part of the appeal.

I used to play that 3on3 freestyle game with CRAAAPPY graphics. Ok the gameplay wasn't great, but the appeal was the dynamics of having "online multiplayer". Point being, simple dynamics, even without flash, does sell games. 2K has sold 'cause of decent gameplay, but once it keeps devolving to arcade gameplay, it's downhill.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I think you're being too soft on 2K. Bums and cheesers will always exist, but it's 100% within their ability and it's their responsibility (if they choose to) to make it a simulation, and it's not that hard. Things like HOF shooting badges should be completely removed, deadeye badges should be removed, zigzag was *supposed* to be removed, but sharps still ziggyzag around screens all day. How about inbound 3 bs in park. Basic stuff.

Mike Wang has plenty to be questioned about. Things like 'why are you letting twitter bums determine what gameplay directions you go in (or at least that's the perception). Why have pure shooters been OP for 3+ years. Honestly people overhype 2K. Do you know how many would people would play a basketball game just if things "made sense" and happened like real basketball? You don't need all the flash, plenty would play just if they thought their skill was being rewarded realistically. Gameplay is huge part of the appeal.

I used to play that 3on3 freestyle game with CRAAAPPY graphics. Ok the gameplay wasn't great, but the appeal was the dynamics of having "online multiplayer". Point being, simple dynamics, even without flash, does sell games. 2K has sold 'cause of decent gameplay, but once it keeps devolving to arcade gameplay, it's downhill.

Not being soft on them. I just understand that the "sim" player is a dying breed, and the casuals are the new flow of income. Maybe it is and maybe it's not within their ability to make the game a simulation, but that's not where the money is at anymore nor is there some untapped pool of simheads ready to buy this game by the truckloads. However, someone stated it perfectly...you can't play in a mode with created players using boosted attributes/ratings and expect realistic results. To me, the whole MyCareer, Park, JRC, and MyTeam modes are more for the players who believe basketball is what they see on SportsCenter. If people want a more "sim" experience, then you're basically forced to play offline with custom rosters/sliders, or play with friends.

If it were up to me, I would completely do away with badges and shot meters, but I know that's an unrealistic expectation. Therefore, I have to "deal" with the new meta of online basketball. New meta of basketball is selling and breaking records for Take Two every year so far, so to them...it's not going downhill.

[youALREADYknow]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I learned a long time ago that it's far easier to criticize on the outside looking in than to be accountable for results every day on the inside.

None of us sitting on the forums know if any individual person is doing a great job or not within Visual Concepts. There are too many dynamics at play (corporate hierarchy, office politics, personalities, legacy technical debt, budget, shareholders).

There are obviously areas of the game that could be improved upon greatly given the technology available today, but I'd rather spend time making the most out of what we get every year than focusing on the negative. I'm more encouraged when the development team is engaging the community (Mike, Czar, OG, etc) and that's only going to continue if the feedback is constructive on forums like OS instead of a constant wave of criticism of the end product. There's more to be gained from collaboration and feedback than tearing down the people who have chosen to make this their livelihood.

I can't think of many long-running game franchises that have maintained this level of activity in the community. That's my takeaway from the Mike Wang story. I'm happy to see someone living their dream and giving back to those who were in his same situation before.

Now if you want to make a difference then here's a good place to start... a thread to provide feedback to developers that could actually get into 2K20 and beyond.

LINK: SIMNATION DEVELOPER FEEDBACK PROJECT