For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (IGN)

[Junior Moe]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Not being soft on them. I just understand that the "sim" player is a dying breed, and the casuals are the new flow of income. Maybe it is and maybe it's not within their ability to make the game a simulation, but that's not where the money is at anymore nor is there some untapped pool of simheads ready to buy this by truckloads. However, someone stated it perfectly...you can't play in a mode with created players using boosted attributes/ratings and expect realistic results. To me, the whole MyCareer, Park, JRC, and MyTeam modes are more for the players who believe basketball is what they see on SportsCenter. If people want a more "sim" experience, then you're basically forced to play offline with custom rosters/sliders, or play with friends.

If it were up to me, I would completely do away with badges and shot meters, but I know that's an unrealistic expectation. Therefore, I have to "deal" with the new meta of online basketball. New meta of basketball is selling and breaking records for Take Two every year so far, so to them...it's not going downhill.

I wouldn't even say that "sim" (however you want to define it) players are a dying breed. It's just that the game is played by so many more people now. Back when 2K was selling 2 million copies, maybe more people fit into the "sim" mold. Now 2K is selling 10 million copies and those much maligned people on twitter/Facebook spend money all the same. Probably more.

I get murdered playing on HOF against the CPU. So I don't. However, when I play a PNO game against my brother or friends we only play on HOF. HOF online against a person not adamant about cheesing the game provides as "sim" an experience as you can get today, IMO.

I've always wondered what the baseline for the online Park stuff should be. Is it the NBA? Is it street ball? Is it NBA players playing street ball? Would Steph shoot 75% from 3 playing street ball? Is it some NBA Street hybrid? Is it just some fantasy mode where you create your God-mode basketball self and go up against others? I honestly don't know.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I wouldn't even say that "sim" (however you want to define it) players are a dying breed. It's just that the game is played by so many more people now. Back when 2K was selling 2 million copies, maybe more people fit into the "sim" mold. Now 2K is selling 10 million copies and those much maligned people on twitter/Facebook spend money all the same. Probably more.

I get murdered playing on HOF against the CPU. So I don't. However, when I play a PNO game against my brother or friends we only play on HOF. HOF online against a person not adamant about cheesing the game provides as "sim" an experience as you can get today, IMO.

I've always wondered what the baseline for the online Park stuff should be. Is it the NBA? Is it street ball? Is it NBA players playing street ball? Would Steph shoot 75% from 3 playing street ball? Is it some NBA Street hybrid? Is it just some fantasy mode where you create your God-mode basketball self and go up against others? I honestly don't know.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

Personally, I feel that Park, JRC, and MyTeam should never be the barometer as to what is realistic or not realistic when it comes to basketball.

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Not being soft on them. I just understand that the "sim" player is a dying breed, and the casuals are the new flow of income. Maybe it is and maybe it's not within their ability to make the game a simulation, but that's not where the money is at anymore nor is there some untapped pool of simheads ready to buy this game by the truckloads. However, someone stated it perfectly...you can't play in a mode with created players using boosted attributes/ratings and expect realistic results. To me, the whole MyCareer, Park, JRC, and MyTeam modes are more for the players who believe basketball is what they see on SportsCenter. If people want a more "sim" experience, then you're basically forced to play offline with custom rosters/sliders, or play with friends.

If it were up to me, I would completely do away with badges and shot meters, but I know that's an unrealistic expectation. Therefore, I have to "deal" with the new meta of online basketball. New meta of basketball is selling and breaking records for Take Two every year so far, so to them...it's not going downhill.

..."yet." Like I've said before, NBA Live was king of the hill at one point, selling their soul for the Arcade Baller and $$$$. Becoming all about gimmicks. They lost respect and credibility year after year, and look at them now. NBA LIVE was a GIANT. What market share for basketball games did they take? I'm sure it was a lot. I think everyone over-estimates success and gets too arrogant. 2K isn't Apple, 2K isn't Google, 2K isn't a needed commodity like PG&E water food (ok it is to some lol). Point is, a company should never get too arrogant.

NBA 2K blew up because of marketing and substance, but A LOT of the reason they continued to thrive was the RESPECT & CREDIBILITY they earned from the Sim community, who became their brand ambassadors, who convinced their friends to drop NBA Live for this 'better game'. Can we honestly say that still exists re: expecting realistic gameplay?

Can we honestly say that if NBA Live replicated the Park/Pro Am/ MyCareer experience with
1) Balanced gameplay (not these pure demigod sharpshooters)
2) Cheap upgrades (no 100000 hrs of grinding or $200 in VC)

2K wouldn't start to lose customers?
2K would lose customers just if there was a basketball game that didn't require an extra $50 or $100 to be spent on it in VC alone.


Your opinion is "catering to the casuals will continue to bring in record profits". My opinion is catering to casuals exclusively (the direction they seem to be going) will eventually bite them in the A by losing credibility and respect throughout the basketball community and media.

If I wanted to play NBA Jam, I'd play NBA Jam.

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Personally, I feel that Park, JRC, and MyTeam should never be the barometer as to what is realistic or not realistic when it comes to basketball.

Even esports Pro Am is arcade.

[jfsolo]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I don't even play online, but the the evolution of the game as primarily a social experience, with the accompanying shrewd and effective marketing style, has make NBA 2K IMO pretty much immune to all but the most catastrophic drop in game play quality.

The Czar has said it more succinctly on the podcast, "Gameplay doesn't sell the game anymore" That sobering reality make me somewhat skeptical about the sim future of the game especially in the online space.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

..."yet." Like I've said before, NBA Live was king of the hill at one point, selling their soul for the Arcade Baller and $$$$. Becoming all about gimmicks. They lost respect and credibility year after year, and look at them now. NBA LIVE was a GIANT. What market share for basketball games did they take? I'm sure it was a lot. I think everyone over-estimates success and gets too arrogant. 2K isn't Apple, 2K isn't Google, 2K isn't a needed commodity like PG&E water food (ok it is to some lol). Point is, a company should never get too arrogant.

NBA 2K blew up because of marketing and substance, but A LOT of the reason they continued to thrive was the RESPECT & CREDIBILITY they earned from the Sim community, who became their brand ambassadors, who convinced their friends to drop NBA Live for this 'better game'. Can we honestly say that still exists re: expecting realistic gameplay?

Can we honestly say that if NBA Live replicated the Park/Pro Am/ MyCareer experience with
1) Balanced gameplay (not these pure demigod sharpshooters)
2) Cheap upgrades (no 100000 hrs of grinding or $200 in VC)

2K wouldn't start to lose customers?
2K would lose customers just if there was a basketball game that didn't require an extra $50 or $100 to be spent on it in VC alone.


Your opinion is "catering to the casuals will continue to bring in record profits". My opinion is catering to casuals exclusively (the direction they seem to be going) will eventually bite them in the A by losing credibility and respect throughout the basketball community and media.

If I wanted to play NBA Jam, I'd play NBA Jam.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't see any apocalyptic downfall unless they drastically change the gameplay/engine where it becomes a foreign game even to the vets.

The problem that you run into is that the MyCareer and MyTeam modes is their bread and butter. Those modes are basically fantasy modes. There's really not a "requirement" to be realistic in an environment that's traditionally about showboating and flashiness. Plus, they no longer have to rely on the success of just only producing a basketball game based on the real life NBA teams.

Before the introduction of MyCareer, NBA 2K was just the better the experience over Live. If you want the honest-to-god truth, I think NBA 2K was going to overtake Live at some point even if Live never took off years. Live taking off years just sped up the takeover.

NBA 2K is in a good spot. They have a "fantasy" modes for the "younger" crowd, and the offline modes for the old heads who probably don't care about the fantasy modes anyways. The old heads are a very small minority who Da Czar, Wang, and Scott take care of behind the scenes. Take Two is about the crowd who don't care about spending money to create a player who can shoot a ungodly amount of 3's or dunk on every possession, because all they care about is winning. It's obvious when people walk beside you, then open your phone to review your resume.

Live is not catching up to NBA 2K, and NBA 2K is too far ahead for any other company to even dare to challenge their product. The sheer volume of available modes is enough to scare off most competition. The only way that NBA 2K can lose is if the fanbase suddenly decides that traditional basketball is the best way to play the game.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I don't even play online, but the the evolution of the game as primarily a social experience, with the accompanying shrewd and effective marketing style, has make NBA 2K IMO pretty much immune to all but the most catastrophic drop in game play quality.

The Czar has said it more succinctly on the podcast, "Gameplay doesn't sell the game anymore" That sobering reality make me somewhat skeptical about the sim future of the game especially in the online space.

Good observation, I've been saying the same for a while of almost the entire AAA video games industry.

I don't think it will last forever though; the trend of AAA developers to "play it (relatively)safe, stick with what's working" will eventually stagnate the market enough to leave it open to other companies that were willing to take a risk on a product which caught on breaking through, forcing others to either rethink their game design philosophies or be left behind.

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I learned a long time ago that it's far easier to criticize on the outside looking in than to be accountable for results every day on the inside.

None of us sitting on the forums know if any individual person is doing a great job or not within Visual Concepts. There are too many dynamics at play (corporate hierarchy, office politics, personalities, legacy technical debt, budget, shareholders).

There are obviously areas of the game that could be improved upon greatly given the technology available today, but I'd rather spend time making the most out of what we get every year than focusing on the negative. I'm more encouraged when the development team is engaging the community (Mike, Czar, OG, etc) and that's only going to continue if the feedback is constructive on forums like OS instead of a constant wave of criticism of the end product. There's more to be gained from collaboration and feedback than tearing down the people who have chosen to make this their livelihood.

I can't think of many long-running game franchises that have maintained this level of activity in the community. That's my takeaway from the Mike Wang story. I'm happy to see someone living their dream and giving back to those who were in his same situation before.

Now if you want to make a difference then here's a good place to start... a thread to provide feedback to developers that could actually get into 2K20 and beyond.

LINK: SIMNATION DEVELOPER FEEDBACK PROJECT

What's the point of getting "feedback" or having "activity" if they turn a deaf ear to what real basketball looks like. The most obvious flaw is that it's been multiple years now that pure sharps/stretch's have been completely OP, ruined gameplay balance, and dominated how "esports" pro-am is played. People are making or losing money off of terrible gameplay. Why is 2K sooo scared to nerf these builds but they'll nerf other things? They're afraid target customer 13 yr old Billy is going to have to actually learn some basketball instead of greening 3 out of 4 contested 3's? Such an easily correctable thing, yet would have a huge positive impact on gameplay.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

What's the point of getting "feedback" or having "activity" if they turn a deaf ear to what real basketball looks like. The most obvious flaw is that it's been multiple years now that pure sharps/stretch's have been completely OP, ruined gameplay balance, and dominated how "esports" pro-am is played. People are making or losing money off of terrible gameplay. Why is 2K sooo scared to nerf these builds but they'll nerf other things? They're afraid target customer 13 yr old Billy is going to have to actually learn some basketball instead of greening 3 out of 4 contested 3's? Such an easily correctable thing, yet would have a huge positive impact on gameplay.

OS is a great source for feedback, because the members know their sh*t when it comes basketball. The same casuals and lower denominator that 2K Sports caters to is the same crowd that is dumb as rocks when it comes to real basketball.

This forum will pick up on things that the average consumer won't when it comes to fundamental basketball. We have threads on MULTIPLE modes where people are able to have adult conversations and give critical feedback.

Mike Wang has a great and mostly creditable source when he wants real feedback on the game. The Twitter polls are mostly a pulse check on the casual crowd. He can still improve the game on a fundamental level while making executive decisions on the sliders. It's probably why we're seeing less and less knee jerk patches to gameplay mechanics since 2K17.

If you haven't realized it yet, the OP shooting in the fantasy modes is an executive decision and not a broken gameplay mechanic. Mike can nerf pure sharps/stretches at will.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

OS is a great source for feedback, because the members know their sh*t when it comes basketball. The same casuals and lower denominator that 2K Sports caters to is the same crowd that is dumb as rocks when it comes to real basketball.

This forum will pick up on things that the average consumer won't when it comes to fundamental basketball. We have threads on MULTIPLE modes where people are able to have adult conversations and give critical feedback.

Mike Wang has a great and mostly creditable source when he wants real feedback on the game. The Twitter polls are mostly a pulse check on the casual crowd. He can still improve the game on a fundamental level while making executive decisions on the sliders. It's probably why we're seeing less and less knee jerk patches to gameplay mechanics since 2K17.

If you haven't realized it yet, the OP shooting in the fantasy modes is an executive decision and not a broken gameplay mechanic. Mike can nerf pure sharps/stretches at will.

I tend to agree; at the end of the day I'm sure people higher up the chain the command than the guys we interact with are the ones making the important decision re: the direction of the game, and said people are probably just numbers guys who don't care one bit about realism or
solid gameplay(or probably even bastketball in general) as long as they're seeing the financial metrics they're looking for.

Are there guys at 2K who don't care for the current direction of the product and would rather it be much more realistic? I'm sure there are; that's why we get a little something slid our way every now and again.

[triplechin]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Hopefully all these microtransactions become regulated af and we can get back to playing good games instead of a little social hub with VC sales in my face and garbage gameplay. Stop preying on the little kids with their parents' cc and others. Higher ups can shove it and we can get back to enjoying playing games instead of a crappy microtransaction cycle.

Rant aside, I think we need a more sim oriented mode/sliders for ProAM to separate from people who think timing is pure skill and want to see those people shooting 80%. I think the community is just divided.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

Hopefully all these microtransactions become regulated af and we can get back to playing good games instead of a little social hub with VC sales in my face and garbage gameplay. Stop preying on the little kids with their parents' cc and others. Higher ups can shove it and we can get back to enjoying playing games instead of a crappy microtransaction cycle.

Rant aside, I think we need a more sim oriented mode/sliders for ProAM to separate from people who think timing is pure skill and want to see those people shooting 80%. I think the community is just divided.

That's kinda where I'm at, if people want to play arcade basketball let them. Just give me a solid set of sim sliders and some matchmaking to pair me with other people that want to play more realistic basketball out of the box and I'll be happy in that aspect.

[olajuwon34]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I mean yeah, if you now agree that gameplay directors arent out here driving pricing then we're on the same page, because that was my point.

The word Monopoly has a pretty straightforward definition. Throwing "besides" in there doesnt change the fact that NBA Live exists and is a functional option. Anything else is just contorting the word to fit opinion so I wasnt really interested in debating that.

Of course your not interested in debating whether or not 2k has a monopoly making these types of games, because you would not win.

[GisherJohn24]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I would just like to point out, and while I can't prove this, I doubt M. Wang is responsible for the push of VC. That's probably the execs in the board room...

[Keith01]

Re: For Those That Didn't Know, Mike Wang Got Noticed From Posting on the OS Forums (

I would just like to point out, and while I can't prove this, I doubt M. Wang is responsible for the push of VC. That's probably the execs in the board room...

Shouldn't he be in charge of gameplay when a build becomes too OP