Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

[jordankobewade7]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

We live in an age of advanced basketball analytics. Do I really need to explain what's a median average for certain shots percentage based on the distance of the nearest defender? The numbers that you see in NBA 2K do not mirror real life.

stats mean nothing in the moment. players dont miss shots because their 'analytics' say they will (its the other way around). players defy analytics all the time and there are many many examples of this where a player shoots x% from the field and yet he's hit x amount of shots from the very same area. yes you can argue that he will eventually regress back to the mean, but again, analytics dont dictate when that happens. they could stay hot or they could drop off a cliff...

its all about the situation and fairness..you have to balance rewarding great players and defense, but you also have to replicate the greatness of nba players, which in essence has proved that great offense beats great defense. its more about slowing than stopping.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

stats mean nothing in the moment. players dont miss shots because their 'analytics' say they will (its the other way around). players defy analytics all the time and there are many many examples of this where a player shoots x% from the field and yet he's hit x amount of shots from the very same area. yes you can argue that he will eventually regress back to the mean, but again, analytics dont dictate when that happens. they could stay hot or they could drop off a cliff...

its all about the situation and fairness..you have to balance rewarding great players and defense, but you also have to replicate the greatness of nba players, which in essence has proved that great offense beats great defense. its more about slowing than stopping.

What do they teach in schools these days?

Median: Denoting or relating to a value or quantity lying at the midpoint of a frequency distribution of observed values or quantities, such that there is an equal probability of falling above or below it.

Outlier: An observation that lies in an abnormal distance from other values in a random sample from a population. In a sense, this definition leaves it up to the analyst (or a consensus process) to decide what will be considered abnormal. Before abnormal observations can be singled out, it is necessary to characterize normal observations.

Median = Simulation basketball.

Outliers = ESPN highlights and arcade basketball.

[AndreSwagassi86]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

We live in an age of advanced basketball analytics. Do I really need to explain what's a median average for certain shots percentage based on the distance of the nearest defender? The numbers that you see in NBA 2K do not mirror real life.

Well no because I’d rather see the advanced stats of elite shooters not the combined average of the league when there are many bad shooters in the league.

Just because a green release is a guaranteed make doesn’t mean you’ll be shooting or should be shooting 80% or some astronomical number.

Great defense should be rewarded , low ratings should be a detriment. Shot timing based on rating should be possible.

If a player is contesting a shot by jumping with the shooter with his hand up , you can for surely lock out the green release

Just standing there with a hand up is not a disrupting contest to a lot of great shooters.

And when statements are made about not mirroring real life that leaves the door open to a lot of things , because then the “it’s a video game” argument shows itself.

Green releases are about as realistic as many of the “Sim” MyLeague/MyGM rebuilds


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Baebae32]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

I believe that if they are gonna keep green releases then you perfectly timing your shot should only give you the maximum percentage allowed by whatever what rating you have. I.e. 99 open green release gives you a 50% chance to make the shot. And then you can add the boosts from badges into the equation kr whatever.

That way if rebounding slasher or whatever the build is master their release timing with a 75 rating they would only shoot around 32-35% from 3

[jordankobewade7]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

What do they teach in schools these days?

Median: Denoting or relating to a value or quantity lying at the midpoint of a frequency distribution of observed values or quantities, such that there is an equal probability of falling above or below it.

Outlier: An observation that lies in an abnormal distance from other values in a random sample from a population. In a sense, this definition leaves it up to the analyst (or a consensus process) to decide what will be considered abnormal. Before abnormal observations can be singled out, it is necessary to characterize normal observations.

Median = Simulation basketball.

Outliers = ESPN highlights and arcade basketball.

LOL... bottom line, stats are a guide, not the end all. biggest point i made that you cannot argue with is that stats/analytics/numbers whatever you wanna call it, does NOT dictate that a player will miss OR make a specific shot or x number of shots.

they are merely a guide into how a player will perform and mostly for those who dont consistently watch the games. many factors go into whether someone will make or miss, so to have absolutes in 2k as if to say that is what occurs in real life is false.

players make lucky shots, some players have the ability to make contested shots more than others on a consistent basis, some players miss wide open shots. it happens. it all happens.

all in all, i stand corrected on the subject of green releases being perfect. i may have a very good idea that my shot will fall, but i never really know until it does. and many times my shots feel good but rim out, etc.

so to get back to the main point here (lol), i think the best bet is to still have green releases, but not to make them 100%. make them like 95-98%. i also agree that ratings under a certain threshold should be locked out of green releases, whether by actual rating, or by the formula result from a contested, or moving shot + badge input. but i think the threshold should be 75.

while i think there should be greens, i think they should be almost sacred in their frequency. we should only see a few per game, and certainly not every time down. too often are bad shots rewarded and its especially irritating when its not even a good move, or a repeated/regurgitated move. and even when we do see green releases, its should only be an excellent release, and not 100%...we should never be able to relax and know that a shot is going in the second it leaves someone's hand...upon further thought, that in fact does not occur irl and as such it shouldnt be in what should be a sim game, esp online.

death to the cheese.

[splashmountain]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

It’s not a false narrative. There are just some players who still shoot very accurately when highly contested.

This narrative that many have that it doesn’t exist in real life because you don’t want it to exist in a video game is baffling.

This is why ratings need to matter more. Badges do nothing but up the success probability. And many are extremely unnecessary and wouldn’t exist if ratings mattered more.

There’s no point in having a contested show rating if there’s no incentive. Nobody is saying the green window should be large on contested shots, but they should still be possible unless the contested shot rating is is lower than a certain number which should then lock the possibility of green out.

And I’m not sure what your definition of “video game numbers” is but that’s exactly what the elites do in the league.




Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

greens for shooter shooters:
ratings should have to be in the 90's for 3's. green release means you hit the button and released it(or the analog) at the perfect time for that persons shot style(release point, etc.)

Can you still make it if not green? yes. a 90+ 3's rating means you have a 60% chance of hitting the shot anyway if the user is say slightly late or slightly early. and this only works if there's no defense around. the more your shot is late or earlier, the more your chance falls of you hitting the shot. even when wide open.

its not that hard.

IF your shot is contested. It depends on how long the persons arms are. They're timing on the close out or their jump timing(if you jump and you're close you cause a much higher drastic drop in the offensive players shot rating. So if you're a 7 foot big, jumping out close to a 6'2 guard(named steph curry) . And you time it right, you will either block his shot(tip it), or you can drop his 3pt shooting ability by 20%. from 90 to a 70. that doesnt mean you cant still hit. it means the margin for error is much smaller than when there's no one around. the green release area is super duper small in this scenario. NO, it doesnt matter what defensive badge you have. thats irrelevant. a defensive badge should not cause a rating to drop nor an animation to play out weirdly. there is nothing realistic about that line of thinking.

Defenders dont make you spazz out in real life. YOU make YOU spazz out in real life based on your fear of being swatted by certain individuals.

what a defensive badge is supposed to do a ratings should already do.

your steals go up because of your higher rating in the stl's dept. it means the higher it goes the more you can reach without getting called for fouls. its the more accurate your reach attempt can be in deflecting the ball or stealing it. same for blocks. higher defensive ratings means you have quicker hands, and better lateral movement for better defense.

The idea that defensive badge ggrants you the right to just stand still and let 2k's CPU controll your player for steals or hands up blocks should be done away with.

[splashmountain]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

LOL... bottom line, stats are a guide, not the end all. biggest point i made that you cannot argue with is that stats/analytics/numbers whatever you wanna call it, does NOT dictate that a player will miss OR make a specific shot or x number of shots.

they are merely a guide into how a player will perform and mostly for those who dont consistently watch the games. many factors go into whether someone will make or miss, so to have absolutes in 2k as if to say that is what occurs in real life is false.

players make lucky shots, some players have the ability to make contested shots more than others on a consistent basis, some players miss wide open shots. it happens. it all happens.

all in all, i stand corrected on the subject of green releases being perfect. i may have a very good idea that my shot will fall, but i never really know until it does. and many times my shots feel good but rim out, etc.

so to get back to the main point here (lol), i think the best bet is to still have green releases, but not to make them 100%. make them like 95-98%. i also agree that ratings under a certain threshold should be locked out of green releases, whether by actual rating, or by the formula result from a contested, or moving shot + badge input. but i think the threshold should be 75.

while i think there should be greens, i think they should be almost sacred in their frequency. we should only see a few per game, and certainly not every time down. too often are bad shots rewarded and its especially irritating when its not even a good move, or a repeated/regurgitated move. and even when we do see green releases, its should only be an excellent release, and not 100%...we should never be able to relax and know that a shot is going in the second it leaves someone's hand...upon further thought, that in fact does not occur irl and as such it shouldnt be in what should be a sim game, esp online.

death to the cheese.

i hear you, i really do. but you're not being true to IRL.

IF you have actually played a lot of basketball in your life, especially vs actual stiff comp. and stiff comp for you could be soft comp for me. that doesnt matter. stiff is stiff. its all perception. You will realize you do know when your shot is going to go in most times. i'm not talking about if you're lying to yourself about it. If you're being serious and realistic. you can tell the moment you release it if its a "green" release or even if it aint perfect but its still about to drop. the more you play the better your feel for the game becomes. great legendary rebounders rebound offensively so well because they themselves can tell when a shot will be missed and based on how its shot they can also tell where it will most likely fall. They only know this because they understand the jumper being shot, the physics behind that jump shot.

are their times when you said "dang that felt good." BRICK? of course. why did you miss? because if i recorded your form, your form was off a bit. if i recorded your release your release may have been off a bit. if i recorded your jump on a jumper, your momentum from how you jumped may not have been propler for the shot you have just taken.

you dont miss just cause in real life. you miss because of you didnt shoot the ball correctly. Your best shooters go into slumps because they stop shooting the ball correctly. not just cause they go into slumps. the better shooters can re-calibrate their own shot quicker than others.

[jordankobewade7]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

Defenders dont make you spazz out in real life. YOU make YOU spazz out in real life based on your fear of being swatted by certain individuals.

what a defensive badge is supposed to do a ratings should already do.

your steals go up because of your higher rating in the stl's dept. it means the higher it goes the more you can reach without getting called for fouls. its the more accurate your reach attempt can be in deflecting the ball or stealing it. same for blocks. higher defensive ratings means you have quicker hands, and better lateral movement for better defense.

The idea that defensive badge ggrants you the right to just stand still and let 2k's CPU controll your player for steals or hands up blocks should be done away with.

i agree that a defender simply in the area shouldnt result in a contested shot. pure locks in 19 didnt even have to jump, as long as they were in your immediate area they would get at least a yellow and often a red contest; total bs.

as far as the hands up blocks, i dont agree. if you play hands up defense and the height difference is that much so that its a block when you attempt to shoot then thats your fault as the shooter. the only time ive seen that is when theres a height gap..

defense in general needs to be toned WAY down. irl you cannot intercept a pass that was thrown from 5ft or less right in front of you, best case is that you can tip the ball but often the velocity is so great that it just becomes an errant deflection out of bounds. part of this is the crazy defensive reaction times/hands and part of it is the offensive player not taking defenders into account when making passes.

there are so many instances where players are in the immediate area and you make a pass right into them that often results in a steal or drop. terrible.

[splashmountain]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

In theory, guaranteed makes would be possible if humans were cyborgs using mathematical computations to decide our every move and determine what's the optimum adjustments needed to make the shot based on your position relative to the basket and what the defense is doing at that moment.

actually that is what great scorers do. they adjust their bodies in mid air at times, will tweak their form if need be, will tweak their release point depending on how much they need to hang in the air or float left or right. yup. players do that in real life. what they cant do is do it MOST of the time as in 70% of the time.

i said this a year ago. if you want to make the shot more realistic. you have to add other elements to the video game shot other than release timing. you need to go back to the stick or where you can control the angle of your shot/direction.

where you can the force in which you flick your wrist (how hard do you press the sprint button when in mid air ready to release it. you can shoot farthest when yanking on that right trigger while shooting. but its also a harder shot if you miss, to rebound because it will ricochet hard off the backboard or rim.

the power of the shot means it can at times go thru a slight tip of the ball and not a full on block and still get up towards the rim.

[Cavsfan4life]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

there is such a thing as a guaranteed make..i play basketball frequently and i consider myself a shooter. when the shot feels good you know its going in. so i like the idea of a green release.

-However-

with that said, being a shooter i have a feel for my shot and thats how i know when its going in. but for someone who is not a shooter, they have no such feel, and most shots are a crap shoot; they have no idea whether its going in. any build that does not have shooting in it should be locked out of green releases. just because you cant green a shot doesnt mean it that build cant make those shots, it doesnt even mean you cant make them at a high clip. ive had plenty of games where ive had no greens or one green and shot a very high percentage.

as long as you take good shots you should be able to hit them at a high percentage if your build can hit those shots. (ie i have no issues with post scorers hitting long 2s or 3s consistently as long as they are open/wide open and the release is on point).

if they dont want to remove greens altogether for none shooting builds, im also amiable to having the green window so small that it represents pure luck. this would be realistic as sometimes out of pure luck or chance the ball gets thrown up and hits perfectly. but this is impossible to replicate or perform consistently and the window should be minuscule to illustrate this.

lastly, there are only certain types of players that are going to hit shots in traffic or with a guy running out closely contesting. this depends on the player AND the shot type. for example, a post scorer is accustomed to hitting post shots in traffic or under duress, however that same post scorer should have trouble hitting moving shots not from the post when under the same conditions. same if you have a pure sharp and they can hit all day standing still with a guy running out. they should struggle if theyre forced to put it down and shoot a drifting shot, or anything other than a one dribble side step (where they end up standing still anyway). sharps need a badge for stand still jumpers also, you should be able to have the same benefits of a catch and shoot when say someone is closing out and you pump fake, they fly by, you one dribble side step and shoot. technically you lost catch and shoot, but thats still a money shot and you are probably more open at that point than you were on the closeout catch/shoot look. i dont wanna be forced to shoot that first shot to get the benefit of catch/shoot when the better shot was letting them fly by and side stepping...

If you can feel perfect shots, I can still feel the perfect blocks and shot contests in my youth.

Guys should be rewarded for taking smart shots and shots they can make, not shots because they get a green. To say otherwise, or even mention guaranteed makes in the real world, it's ridiculous.

[splashmountain]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

i agree that a defender simply in the area shouldnt result in a contested shot. pure locks in 19 didnt even have to jump, as long as they were in your immediate area they would get at least a yellow and often a red contest; total bs.

as far as the hands up blocks, i dont agree. if you play hands up defense and the height difference is that much so that its a block when you attempt to shoot then thats your fault as the shooter. the only time ive seen that is when theres a height gap..

defense in general needs to be toned WAY down. irl you cannot intercept a pass that was thrown from 5ft or less right in front of you, best case is that you can tip the ball but often the velocity is so great that it just becomes an errant deflection out of bounds. part of this is the crazy defensive reaction times/hands and part of it is the offensive player not taking defenders into account when making passes.

there are so many instances where players are in the immediate area and you make a pass right into them that often results in a steal or drop. terrible.

i like what you're saying but 2k19 was not like that. hands up blocks with auto contest on meant...auto blocks. you didnt have to do squat but hold your hands up. yes if an early boykins runs into joel Embiid with a weak attempt. yes let embiid choose to hands up little guy block him lol. But thats not what you would see a lot of times. guys were just standing around(usually BENEATH THE RIM or even behind the backboard outside of the play holding their hands up on opposing bigs praying that the auto block would kick in, or the spazz animation would kick in to make the offensive guy do something silly and blow the layup.

IN real life. I dont care if you're prime mutombo. and I'm old, out of shape version of my self right now. he aint scaring me at all if he's under the backboard, because i know if he jumps he will hurt himself by hitting his head OR breaking a finger or something if he jumps with his hands up.
2k does not take that into consideration at all.

[jordankobewade7]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

i hear you, i really do. but you're not being true to IRL.

you dont miss just cause in real life. you miss because of you didnt shoot the ball correctly. Your best shooters go into slumps because they stop shooting the ball correctly. not just cause they go into slumps. the better shooters can re-calibrate their own shot quicker than others.

the part that made me come to my senses on this was when i read someone in this thread said go shoot 20 jumpers in the gym and tell me which ones were green and which ones werent...LOL i cried laughing

i do consider myself a shooter and i feel like i have a great feel for the game and for my shot. but i cant deny that some shots feel good as ever and still miss. it happens. i have had games where all of my shots that feel good drop, plenty of times over the yrs. but still i cant shake the fact that you never know until the ball drops, you just dont.

and im with you on the 'shooter made a mistake' if you miss. but often times you dont recognize said mistake until you see the shot is off, aka it still felt like you green'd it. LOL. and the whole premise of a green in 2k is from the release point and not as the shot goes in. so thats not translating for me when i really sit and think about it.

i certainly have a feel as a shooter, but i really cant sit here and say i can call green from the moment the ball leaves my hands 100% accurately even when it does feel good..

[AndreSwagassi86]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

greens for shooter shooters:

ratings should have to be in the 90's for 3's. green release means you hit the button and released it(or the analog) at the perfect time for that persons shot style(release point, etc.)



Can you still make it if not green? yes. a 90+ 3's rating means you have a 60% chance of hitting the shot anyway if the user is say slightly late or slightly early. and this only works if there's no defense around. the more your shot is late or earlier, the more your chance falls of you hitting the shot. even when wide open.



its not that hard.



IF your shot is contested. It depends on how long the persons arms are. They're timing on the close out or their jump timing(if you jump and you're close you cause a much higher drastic drop in the offensive players shot rating. So if you're a 7 foot big, jumping out close to a 6'2 guard(named steph curry) . And you time it right, you will either block his shot(tip it), or you can drop his 3pt shooting ability by 20%. from 90 to a 70. that doesnt mean you cant still hit. it means the margin for error is much smaller than when there's no one around. the green release area is super duper small in this scenario. NO, it doesnt matter what defensive badge you have. thats irrelevant. a defensive badge should not cause a rating to drop nor an animation to play out weirdly. there is nothing realistic about that line of thinking.



Defenders dont make you spazz out in real life. YOU make YOU spazz out in real life based on your fear of being swatted by certain individuals.



what a defensive badge is supposed to do a ratings should already do.



your steals go up because of your higher rating in the stl's dept. it means the higher it goes the more you can reach without getting called for fouls. its the more accurate your reach attempt can be in deflecting the ball or stealing it. same for blocks. higher defensive ratings means you have quicker hands, and better lateral movement for better defense.



The idea that defensive badge ggrants you the right to just stand still and let 2k's CPU controll your player for steals or hands up blocks should be done away with.

I’m with you on everything not disagreeing.

I think everyone is just combating the fact that green releases are 100% makes. And my thing is , if a green is going to miss then there is no point in having green releases.

Green releases are an incentive ... there are many things that vary when a person is shooting IRL. Only variable we can control in 2K is release timing. Green releases are just an incentive to shot timing.

My only thing is , ratings don’t matter in 2K and they need to.

If my Shooting rating is high my green window is high also.

If it’s low then my green window is low to 0 depending on rating


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[splashmountain]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

.....

defense in general needs to be toned WAY down. irl you cannot intercept a pass that was thrown from 5ft or less right in front of you, best case is that you can tip the ball but often the velocity is so great that it just becomes an errant deflection out of bounds. part of this is the crazy defensive reaction times/hands and part of it is the offensive player not taking defenders into account when making passes.

there are so many instances where players are in the immediate area and you make a pass right into them that often results in a steal or drop. terrible.

let me also address this passing lane, beyond OP steals and defense.

I can almost...guarantee the logic thats programmed into the system in 2k19. which is something I hated the moment i noticed what was going on even with non defenders when 2k19 dropped.


I love the fact you cant just pass thru people...but wait. you can. lol. i love the idea that you can't dribble thru people's bodies anymore with playmakers...but wait...you can. just not nearly as much as you use to in past 2ks. so i applaud the devs and the team for that recognition. players are not ghost, they can't be dribble thru and passed thru.

But as usual they went way to far. and to me they took a programming shortcut.

Here's the logic to all those fake steals you see.

Because 2k19 was called the defensive 2k. that was their focus right. They assigned logic to the system as such:
Defender button presses have the right away. Meaning If offensive passer press the pass button at 0.01 sec, and the defender person pushes the steal button a 0.03. the pass will get deflected or stolen. HOW? because when the defender pushes his/her button to steal the pass. It will then create logic that says "If steals(X) button is pressed within .03>X<.01 secs or millisecs - Slow down the passing speed by a Factor of Y(whatever they've decided).

This slow down of your pass MID air means it gives the defender a chance to catchup to the pass. Its harder for people to tell that arent the ones making the pass. only the passer knows when he/she pressed that button.

but that is the bad logic they chose to use to take a shortcut to better defense. vs actually doing a lot of work to make the ball more live when its in the air. and giving people the ability to time it properly vs auto sliding them over while auto slowing the pass speed down to create an automatic interception half the time. this is why defenders just play zone all game. automatic bad pass coming unless you're a playmaker as your primary and the person you're passing to is closer to you.

[splashmountain]

Re: Mike Wang tweets about 2K20

I’m with you on everything not disagreeing.

I think everyone is just combating the fact that green releases are 100% makes. And my thing is , if a green is going to miss then there is no point in having green releases.

Green releases are an incentive ... there are many things that vary when a person is shooting IRL. Only variable we can control in 2K is release timing. Green releases are just an incentive to shot timing.

My only thing is , ratings don’t matter in 2K and they need to.

If my Shooting rating is high my green window is high also.

If it’s low then my green window is low to 0 depending on rating


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

You know what. maybe green releases shouldnt be tied to ratings. you know why? it has absolutely nothing to do with a rating. to let the button/stick go at the right time is to say for this particular's players animation/shot timing you chose to let it go at this persons perfect spot. thats it. every player/animation has a perfect spot. that has nothing to do with your overall rating. meaning your perfect release should not vary based on ratings. your window should not increase. because in real life, great shooters hit more greens because they actually release the ball properly more times than most people. Do you see the difference? i didnt say they make more shots per se. i said then hit more greens. meaning they are better at shooting perfectly than most people. thats why their release is money.

Now the other reason overall they shoot so well is because even when its not PERFECT their release is within reason still a very solid release point/form, balance, etc. Those arent greens. those shots should be based on ratings. not greens. green is green is green for every player even some guy with a 50 rating. he has a green too. its just going to be hell trying to find it. this also means you shouldnt be able to put ray allens jumper on a rebounder. you get my point? if a rebounder had rays release he wouldnt miss as much as he does to begin with.