Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

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  • Real2KInsider
    MVP
    • Dec 2003
    • 4645

    #31
    Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

    Originally posted by Thrustie
    I hear what you’re saying but how often do you think the Celtics allowed IT to get ISO’d on by anyone vaguely threatening? It’s hard for me to accept that he’s a good iso defender, despite the numbers. The guy is a turnstile and his contest would barely register for a lot of shooters. He typically got easier assignments and they threw help like crazy whenever teams tried to isolate him. I feel like his numbers must be inflated by mediocre offensive players or shots late in the clock or something.
    This really needs to be sent home. In 2016 IT registered 70 defensive Isolation possessions in 82 games. That's fewer than 1 possession per game. Whether he was elite/awful it's not reflective of his overall defensive value.

    Isaiah Thomas (2016)
    ON-BALL DEF
    41% PnR: 0.73 PPP (329 poss) - 75th percentile
    9% Isolation: 0.70 PPP (70 poss) - 80th percentile
    8% Post-Up: 0.88 PPP (65 poss) - 46th percentile
    OFF-BALL DEF
    21% Spot-Up: 0.95 PPP (167 poss) - 57th percentile
    8% Hand-Off: 1.00 PPP (65 poss) - 82nd percentile
    7% Off-Screen: 0.84 PPP (57 poss) - 68th percentile

    The Celtics were the 4th best defensive team in the NBA in 2016. IT played a team-high 2644 minutes. Clearly, he wasn't a turnstile.

    Did Avery Bradley take his share of tough assignments? Sure. Clearly those secondary assignments weren't abusing IT.

    Did he get more help schematically than the average player? Sure. It certainly didn't affect the team adversely.

    At some point we need to give credit to the player. Effort was never the issue with IT (ditto Muggsy Bogues, Spud Webb, Nate Robinson, Earl Boykins, J.J. Barea, etc).

    Data reflects results, not skill (which is what the rating is attempting to indicate). I'm certainly not claiming it's perfect, just a tool to help guide us to an acceptable answer. There are plenty of players who don't maximize their tools, and just as many get more out of what they have than they should.

    One additional note is IT has barely played in the last two years due to his hip injury and likely can't play an acceptable level of defense anymore. His data as a result is incomplete and that's where an editor can step in and make a judgement call. I certainly wouldn't parade him out with an 85-90 rating simply due to the data.
    Last edited by Real2KInsider; 09-25-2019, 04:40 PM.
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    • Cavs2016
      Rookie
      • Oct 2015
      • 391

      #32
      Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

      Originally posted by tru11
      what is today`s defensive standard and based on what makes you think that jordan would be a sorry defender?
      Jordan easily, and I mean easily has all the tools. He’d be a completely different player in today’s era I would go as far as to say a first team all defensive player no doubt.

      But that’s a hypothetical. His skill level never was maxed out defensively because his competition was nothing like today’s perimeter talent aside from a few guys.

      Iron sharpens iron. Going up against Kobe, Wade, kemba, Kyrie, dame, Kawhi, night to night to night is nothing like anything he faced.

      He primarily could free lance and rest off his man who wasn’t usually a threat to shoot or score off the dribble while the guard on the other side dropped the ball into the post.

      He was a gambler in an era of much inferior ball handling and passing. Great in the passing lanes, but also got burnt a ton and walked back on defense too often.

      He was often very lazy to contest shots. Even to stunt. His footwork was very primitive defensively. He wasn’t the strongest. He had poor discipline. And this goes throughout much of his career. His defense was much better in the late 80s.
      Last edited by Cavs2016; 09-25-2019, 07:35 PM.

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      • Real2KInsider
        MVP
        • Dec 2003
        • 4645

        #33
        Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

        One more thing to point out. Reason I list possessions is it helps account for VOLUME. Good defenders will typically log more possessions.

        0.67 Pat Connaughton (73 poss)
        0.77 Wesley Matthews (287 poss)
        0.78 Paul George (316 poss)
        0.83 Josh Richardson (181 poss)
        0.86 Marcus Smart (249 poss)
        0.86 Jaylen Brown (136 poss)

        0.91 Kyle Korver (188 poss)
        0.91 Jordan Clarkson (191 poss)
        0.93 Zach LaVine (137 poss)

        Smart and Brown play the same position on the same team and Smart has logged 113 more Iso possessions. If we take away Smart's 2016 season (Brown wasn't in NBA):

        0.83 Smart (187 poss / 6,213 minutes / 1.08 poss per 36)
        0.86 Brown (136 poss / 5,406 minutes / 0.90 poss per 36)

        This informs us that Smart is being leaned on more heavily as an Isolation defender.


        On the other end of the volume spectrum, while Pat Connaughton has a great rating, his low possession count indicates he isn't really getting the call in these situations. While he's certainly a quality defender, he's usually playing with the bench unit where Isolations are less likely to occur.

        Paul George's rating/volume meanwhile is absurd.
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        • Real2KInsider
          MVP
          • Dec 2003
          • 4645

          #34
          Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

          SHOOTING GUARD ISOLATION DEFENSE (2016-2019)
          100+ Possessions (Bold = 200+ Possessions)
          0.73 Tim Hardaway Jr = 70
          0.74 Jrue Holiday (305 poss) = 94
          0.76 Wayne Ellington = 60
          0.77 Wesley Matthews (287 poss) = 80
          0.78 Paul George (316 poss) = 95
          0.81 Dion Waiters = 74
          0.83 C.J. McCollum (242 poss) = 68
          0.83 Josh Richardson = 85
          0.85 Langston Galloway = 68
          0.86 Marcus Smart (249 poss) = 93
          0.86 Bradley Beal (231 poss) = 74
          0.86 J.J. Redick (212 poss) = 68
          0.86 Jaylen Brown = 85
          0.87 Buddy Hield = 69
          0.87 Courtney Lee = 74
          0.88 Donovan Mitchell = 79
          0.88 Avery Bradley (193 poss) = 87
          0.88 Marco Belinelli = 60
          0.90 Emmanuel Mudiay (4 seasons at PG) = 71
          0.91 Jordan Clarkson (197 poss) = 65
          0.91 Kent Bazemore (195 poss) = 77
          0.91 Gary Harris = 82
          0.91 Kyle Korver = 70
          0.92 Evan Fournier (266 poss) = 69
          0.92 Garrett Temple (256 poss) = 78
          0.92 Seth Curry = 57
          0.93 Eric Gordon (244 poss) = 78
          0.93 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (243 poss) = 79
          0.93 Zach LaVine = 65
          0.93 Jeremy Lamb = 69
          0.94 Malcolm Brogdon (201 poss) = 77
          0.94 Terrence Ross = 68
          0.94 Allen Crabbe = 70
          0.95 Josh Jackson = 78
          0.96 E'Twaun Moore = 62
          0.96 Tyler Johnson = 72
          0.96 Reggie Bullock = 56
          0.97 Nicolas Batum = 77
          0.97 Norman Powell = 79
          0.99 D'Angelo Russell (4 seasons at PG) = 64
          1.02 Devin Booker (193 poss) = 70
          1.08 Terrance Ferguson = 75
          1.10 Bogdan Bogdanovic = 63
          Last edited by Real2KInsider; 09-26-2019, 01:00 AM.
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          • JoFri
            Pro
            • Mar 2013
            • 1486

            #35
            Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

            Yes, I also struggled on players having lesser 'attempts' like having less than 10 3s but shooting an enormously high 3pt percentage. So in this context, should we filter the possessions, followed by iso? That would give a more realistic representation on the ratings/tendencies.


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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            • taildog
              MVP
              • Jun 2008
              • 1161

              #36
              Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

              Originally posted by aloncho11
              How does defensive consistency affect this rating?


              I think this falls under Basketball IQ. It may be the most powerful rating when it come system efficiency in the Triangle but it doesn’t impact the perimeter defense rating in my experience.
              NBA 2K23 - OFFICIAL TRIANGLE SYSTEM THREAD

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              • Real2KInsider
                MVP
                • Dec 2003
                • 4645

                #37
                Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                Consistency ratings affect player heat - which in turn affects various ratings across the board. By itself it does nothing.


                Currently compiling SF data, this shouldn't be surprising but Isolation defense is far more important here than the other perimeter positions.
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                • TheDominator273
                  Rookie
                  • Feb 2013
                  • 1065

                  #38
                  Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                  So if perimeter defense is just shot contest ratings shouldn't the corresponding statistic to look at be something like this. https://stats.nba.com/players/defens...PerMode=Totals

                  Only filter applied is for Games Played to be 41 or more but you could filter by a certain number of contested shots instead simply as a way to ensure the data you look at has the small sample outliers taken out.

                  But with how I have it filtered, Gary Harris has the biggest differential between opponents FG% vs what they shoot when he is defending (shots greater than 15 ft) with a -10.4% differential, yet he only has an 82 perimeter D rating as shown above.

                  To compare, Eric Bledsoe who has a 93 perimeter defense and sports a -0.3% differential. At the other end of the spectrum Trae Young had a +2.0% differential and has 55 perimeter defense.

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                  • Real2KInsider
                    MVP
                    • Dec 2003
                    • 4645

                    #39
                    Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                    The vast majority of SFs logged 100+ defensive Iso possessions over the last 4 years (exemplifying how important it is compared to the other perimeter positions we've covered). For brevity I'm going to focus solely on the 200+ possession players.

                    200+ Possessions (300+ in bold)
                    0.71 Jimmy Butler (271 poss)
                    0.73 Andrew Wiggins (321 poss)
                    0.80 James Harden (470 poss!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
                    0.81 Tony Snell (248 poss)
                    0.82 Danny Green (217 poss)
                    0.83 Andre Iguodala (225 poss)
                    0.84 Klay Thompson (388 poss)
                    0.85 Andre Roberson (224 poss) - has missed the last 1.5 seasons.
                    0.87 Aaron Gordon (291 poss)
                    0.87 Harrison Barnes (252 poss)
                    0.88 Khris Middleton (314 poss)
                    0.88 Kelly Oubre (208 poss)
                    0.89 Tobias Harris (317 poss)
                    0.92 Bojan Bogdanovic (350 poss)
                    0.98 Trevor Ariza (287 poss)
                    0.99 Otto Porter (274 poss)

                    PGs w/ 200+ possessions
                    0.79 John Wall (214 poss)
                    0.79 Kemba Walker (226 poss)
                    0.80 LeBron James - SF for four seasons (316 poss)
                    0.81 Evan Turner - SF for three seasons (256 poss)
                    0.82 Stephen Curry (333 poss)
                    0.85 Russell Westbrook (220 poss)
                    0.87 Damian Lillard (265 poss)
                    0.88 Ricky Rubio (287 poss)
                    0.88 Austin Rivers (242 poss)
                    0.93 Cory Joseph (220 poss)
                    0.95 Justise Winslow - SF for three seasons (229 poss)

                    SGs w/ 200+ possessions
                    0.74 Jrue Holiday (305 poss)
                    0.77 Wesley Matthews (287 poss)
                    0.78 Paul George - SF for four seasons (316 poss)
                    0.83 C.J. McCollum (242 poss)
                    0.86 Marcus Smart (249 poss)
                    0.86 Bradley Beal (231 poss)
                    0.86 J.J. Redick (212 poss)
                    0.92 Evan Fournier (266 poss)
                    0.92 Garrett Temple (256 poss)
                    0.93 Eric Gordon (244 poss)
                    0.93 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (243 poss)
                    0.94 Malcolm Brogdon (201 poss)
                    Last edited by Real2KInsider; 09-26-2019, 10:45 PM.
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                    • Real2KInsider
                      MVP
                      • Dec 2003
                      • 4645

                      #40
                      Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                      Ran the stats for one PF/C and I can already tell this position is going to be a doozy (relative to how 2K Sports currently treats it)

                      Al Horford: 0.87 PPP (410 poss)

                      James Harden was the only PG/SG/SF to register 400+ defensive Iso possessions over the last 4 seasons.
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                      • Real2KInsider
                        MVP
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 4645

                        #41
                        Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                        200+ Defensive Isolation Possessions (2016-2019)
                        PGs: 12 players
                        SGs: 12 players
                        SFs: 16 players
                        PFs: 44 players
                        Cs: 32 players

                        300+ Defensive Isolation Possessions (2016-2019)
                        PGs: 2
                        SGs: 2
                        SFs: 6
                        PFs: 19
                        Cs: 13

                        400+ Defensive Isolation Possessions (2016-2019)
                        PGs: 0
                        SGs: 0
                        SFs: 1 (James Harden)
                        PFs: 3 (Draymond Green, Julius Randle, Al Horford)
                        Cs: 5 (Clint Capela, Steven Adams, LaMarcus Aldridge, DeAndre Jordan, Serge Ibaka)

                        500+ Possessions: Draymond Green, Clint Capela, Steven Adams
                        Last edited by Real2KInsider; 09-29-2019, 10:07 PM.
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                        • Real2KInsider
                          MVP
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 4645

                          #42
                          Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                          PGs w/ 200+ possessions
                          0.79 John Wall (214)
                          0.79 Kemba Walker (226)
                          0.80 LeBron James (316) - 4 seasons at SF
                          0.81 Evan Turner (256) - 3 seasons at SF
                          0.82 Stephen Curry (333)
                          0.85 Russell Westbrook (220)
                          0.87 Damian Lillard (265)
                          0.88 Ricky Rubio (287)
                          0.88 Austin Rivers (242)
                          0.93 Cory Joseph (220)
                          0.95 Justise Winslow (229) - 3 seasons at SF

                          SGs w/ 200+ possessions
                          0.74 Jrue Holiday (305)
                          0.77 Wesley Matthews (287)
                          0.78 Paul George (316) - 4 seasons at SF
                          0.83 C.J. McCollum (242)
                          0.86 Marcus Smart (249)
                          0.86 Bradley Beal (231)
                          0.86 J.J. Redick (212)
                          0.92 Evan Fournier (266)
                          0.92 Garrett Temple (256)
                          0.93 Eric Gordon (244)
                          0.93 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope (243)
                          0.94 Malcolm Brogdon (201)

                          SGs w/ 200+ Possessions
                          0.71 Jimmy Butler (271)
                          0.73 Andrew Wiggins (321)
                          0.80 James Harden (470)
                          0.81 Tony Snell (248)
                          0.82 Danny Green (217)
                          0.83 Andre Iguodala (225)
                          0.84 Klay Thompson (388)
                          0.85 Andre Roberson (224) - has missed the last 1.5 seasons.
                          0.87 Aaron Gordon (291)
                          0.87 Harrison Barnes (252)
                          0.88 Khris Middleton (314)
                          0.88 Kelly Oubre (208)
                          0.89 Tobias Harris (317)
                          0.92 Bojan Bogdanovic (350)
                          0.98 Trevor Ariza (287)
                          0.99 Otto Porter (274)

                          PFs w/ 200+ possessions
                          0.71 Davis Bertans (220)
                          0.72 Domantas Sabonis (212)
                          0.73 P.J. Tucker (365)
                          0.73 Giannis Antetokoumpo (357)
                          0.73 Kevin Durant (343) - 4 seasons at PF
                          0.73 Robert Covington (253) - 4 seasons at SF
                          0.75 Anthony Davis (339)
                          0.75 Patrick Patterson (278)
                          0.75 James Johnson (208)
                          0.76 Paul Millsap (311)
                          0.77 Draymond Green (545)
                          0.79 Danilo Gallinari (324) - 3 seasons at SF
                          0.79 Markieff Morris (299)
                          0.79 Ersan Ilyasova (292)
                          0.80 Noah Vonleh (302)
                          0.83 Kristaps Porzingis (286) - Hasn't played in 1.5 seasons
                          0.84 Jerami Grant (384)
                          0.84 Anthony Tolliver (234)
                          0.85 Blake Griffin (315)
                          0.85 JaMychal Green (243)
                          0.85 Rudy Gay (222)
                          0.85 Jared Dudley (202)
                          0.86 Ryan Anderson (359)
                          0.86 Jae Crowder (336)
                          0.86 Marcus Morris (334)
                          0.87 Al Horford (410) - 4 seasons at C
                          0.87 Taj Gibson (383)
                          0.87 Jeff Green (372)
                          0.87 Marvin Williams (280)
                          0.88 Pascal Siakam (234)
                          0.88 Kelly Olynyk (254)
                          0.88 Larry Nance (253)
                          0.89 Julius Randle (434)
                          0.90 Al-Farouq Aminu (280)
                          0.91 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (203)
                          0.92 Nemanja Bjelica (311)
                          0.92 Trey Lyles (235)
                          0.93 Wilson Chandler (203)
                          0.94 Jabari Parker (211)
                          0.94 Lauri Markkanen (204)
                          0.96 Dario Saric (332)
                          0.97 Joe Ingles (274) - 4 seasons at SF
                          0.97 Kevin Love (215)
                          0.99 Kyle Kuzma (207)

                          Cs w/ 200+ possessions
                          0.69 DeMarcus Cousins (254)
                          0.73 Myles Turner (274)
                          0.74 Steven Adams (510)
                          0.75 Rudy Gobert (311)
                          0.77 Dwight Powell (313)
                          0.79 Joel Embiid (244)
                          0.80 Derrick Favors (298)
                          0.81 LaMarcus Aldridge (419)
                          0.82 DeAndre Jordan (416)
                          0.82 Gorgui Dieng (282)
                          0.83 Marc Gasol (241)
                          0.84 Brook Lopez (334)
                          0.85 Kevon Looney (267)
                          0.86 Clint Capela (544)
                          0.86 Willie Cauley-Stein (305)
                          0.87 Karl Anthony-Towns (379)
                          0.87 Nikola Vucevic (254)
                          0.88 Maxi Kleber (211)
                          0.88 Jonas Valanciunas (209)
                          0.90 Nikola Jokic (354)
                          0.91 Jusuf Nurkic (241)
                          0.91 Dragan Bender (209)
                          0.93 Nene (233)
                          0.94 Serge Ibaka (415)
                          0.94 Mason Plumlee (314)
                          0.95 Tristan Thompson (336)
                          0.95 Frank Kaminsky (278)
                          0.96 Montrezl Harrell (243)
                          0.96 Bismack Biyombo (236)
                          1.02 Robin Lopez (278)
                          1.02 Andre Drummond (271)

                          The players we consider top tier defensive players are overwhelmingly at the top, which gives credence to the data.

                          There are still SOME bigs like Kevin Love, Andre Drummond etc that get abused but for the most part this is an area that bigs have needed to focus on the last few years.
                          Last edited by Real2KInsider; 10-01-2019, 05:55 AM.
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                          • rudyjuly2
                            Cade Cunningham
                            • Aug 2002
                            • 14813

                            #43
                            Re: Perimeter Defense Rating (NBA 2K20)

                            I don’t suppose you could post Luke Kennard isolation numbers?

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