This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Agree, in those cases the easiest pass is for a corner 3, even jumpin towards outside of the court mid-air befor passing.
This will usually be an open pass because you are already behind the basket

Passing for a wing 3 would be a super risky/difficult pass, which would 90% be intercepted and you also concede an easy 2 on transition

Related to the OP I find comments that intercepting passes is not OP to be in complete denial.

In almost all online games users try to intercept ALL inbound passes after basket. ALL... Why?
Because it is effective. Has anyone noticed this in a real basketball game in combination with the success ratio?

Because they're stupid? I see the same nonsense in PNO. I'm sorry, but the passing lane steals are not OP, because the offense is generally making bad passes. In REC, a good PG should be able to handle those situations.

Having played against a Pro-Am team in REC recently, I can see it being a possible problem when it's a coordinated effort. However, I pretty sure those players have some pretty cheesy offensive moves that they can counter with too.

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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

thats not right. if you drive baseline then the easiest Pass you can have is the Pass along the baseline to the weakside corner. the Pass to the weakside wing is very difficult to do, as you have to Pass the Ball through the whole paint including All the defenders. at least in Real Basketball it is like this.

IRL, most people who drive baseline usually take the contact or go for the reverse layup.

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[Nza]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

It's inevitable that an effective defensive strategy would be formulated when offenses are largely not run as a unit but as a group of individuals. What I mean by that is, it's easier to form a defensive strategy that is effective as a unit (because people will see this passing lane stuff being effective and emulate it in the area of the court they currently occupy, creating a sense of unity across the team), than it is for an offense to band together and counter it (because that takes actual team work and strategy).

For instance, here the defense is dictating the game, because it is assumed the offense will spread out, and hence require the use of passing lanes to pass. So they try to take those away. Change the offense so the reliance on passing lanes is removed or limited, however that may be, and perhaps you have the making of a counter. This would require buy in by all 5 players though.

I don't have any evidence but I suspect if you tried this against a cohesive offensive unit, you'd be slaughtered.

[splashmountain]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

It's inevitable that an effective defensive strategy would be formulated when offenses are largely not run as a unit but as a group of individuals. What I mean by that is, it's easier to form a defensive strategy that is effective as a unit (because people will see this passing lane stuff being effective and emulate it in the area of the court they currently occupy, creating a sense of unity across the team), than it is for an offense to band together and counter it (because that takes actual team work and strategy).

For instance, here the defense is dictating the game, because it is assumed the offense will spread out, and hence require the use of passing lanes to pass. So they try to take those away. Change the offense so the reliance on passing lanes is removed or limited, however that may be, and perhaps you have the making of a counter. This would require buy in by all 5 players though.

I don't have any evidence but I suspect if you tried this against a cohesive offensive unit, you'd be slaughtered.

incorrect.

the game is a cheese fest. because its designed that way. it has gotten worse and worse with each installment. even when the game is better early, they cry, and it gets updated and back to the cheese fest. thats both on offense and defense.

Anyone denying this is doing so because they themselves enjoy the cheese fest of one or both sides of the ball. or this is their first time playing 2k so they dont have anything to compare it to.

Yes guys we know if you try to throw a pass some what next to a guy that can anticipate where you're about to throw the pass next he should be able to tip it or occasionally steal the ball. it should not be going thru his hands/body, etc. I agree, we all agree. thats real life basketball.

But what actually occurs more times than not, is that your pass will go to the wrong person, or the trajectory of the pass will not be what it should be to get the pass to the person its supposed to go to. this happens because of 2k programming. The ball is not Free while its in the air. There are scenarios where 2k's programming kicks in and makes the ball go this way or that way, get intercepted, tipped, caught by the receiver, goes straight out of bounds, or match the receive due that silly fumble catch for 2 seconds.

if the ball was Free and not locked into a defenders interceptor badge level, nor his steals ratings. this would mean any offensive player that ran into the passing lane could catch the ball or the ball could hit that players body, same for any defender that accidentally crosses that ball's path. does this happen often in 2k20? NO and we know this. So why are we acting like we dont know what we know?

So now, if the ball isnt truly free in the air. how do you think the ball gets stolen?


I'm going to show you a super barebones version of the logic that we see play out in the game. How do i know this is true? I have been playing video games for decades, i've been playing basketball video games for decades, I've been messing around with computer software, hardware, coding logic for decades.
No i do not program/code for a living. But I still know basic computer programming/coding Logic. no matter how extreme the code may be. the basic principles do not change. Its like math, no matter how crazy math can seem, at its most basic point its still...basic math. there are just symbols and things that represent very very long basic math equations.

for example: I can code and say the letter "B" = Ball. Which means anytime I want to change an attribute of the ball in game/program. I no longer have to type out 4 letters B A L L. I can just type B.

But just because all you see is the B. it's still very simply B A L L.

I want you guys to understand that basic logic exists no matter how complex the code may be.

So back to what we're seeing on the game.

If Offensive Player A has a passing rating between 80-89. have a passing speed of 70 out of 99(99 passing speed applies when a player's passing rating is 99), a player also has passing accuracy = of 70 to 80 at this same overall passing rating between 80-89.
Follow me. Its not 1 to 1 on every sub attribute.

so lets look
Overall Passing Rating = 80-89

sub passing speed rating = 70-75 (The speed of the ball coming out of the hands of the passer and reaching its target receiver)

sub passing accuracy rating = 70-80 (99 accuracy should land right in the receivers hands above his waist or higher (if its a bounce pass, chest pass, or over head pass, lob pass(not double tap lob)). So this means anything less than 99, means the pass is that percentage less likely to land in the perfect spot for the receiver. all the way to the point of going behind the receiver over his head or straight out of bounds.

sub sub passing accuracy rating = receiver catching rating( Depending on how high your passing rating is determines half or so of the receiver's ability to catch the pass cleanly(no fumbling). The rest is determined by the receivers overall rating and if there's a highly rated defender close to him(you see more fumble catches the lower the receiver's overall is, the lower the passer's overall passing rating, and the higher the defender's overall rating standing next to the receiver) these are all apart of the catch equation.

Passing Badges = Zero

Player D = Defender
Overall Rating of 93+
Steals Rating = 80+(for guards, 60+ for bigs)
Badge = Interceptor on Hall of Fame

Offensive Player A passes to Offensive receiver Player B.
Defender Player D is not in the passing lane, but he's 5 feet away from the passing lane in a zone defense.
If Offensive Player A hits the normal pass button. and Defender Player D hits the steal button (prior or even slightly after Player A hit his pass button). There's a very high chance Player D will either Tip that pass, intercept the pass or the pass will magically go out of bounds, magically go towards a player that Player A did not aim towards at all, and go towards an Offensive PLayer thats closer to the Defender Play D.

Why does this occur? It's to make it SEEM as if Defense matters. It's to make it fun to play with Defenders. This came from years ago when people would rarely if ever choose defenders as an archetype. People made complaints about it, legit complaints. so in 2k fashion, they can never do it right its always way over or way under. They chose the way over board approach aka OP Defenders. It started with OP Defenders badges up and highly rated making your offensive players do all sorts of riduclous and weird animations when crowded by a defender. but this was more man to man than it was a passing lane thing. sure the passing lane thing worked a bit a few 2ks ago. but nothing like how crazy it is now. so 2k thru the years have just OP'd it even more to not just allow defenders to create havoc by being close to the offensive player. but they also now mess with the animation of the ball after it's passed. Which should not occur unless they are actually in the passing lanes.

If Player A hits the pass button within 5 milliseconds of Player D defender hitting the steal button. Player D wins, and therefore gets to change the trajetory of the pass X% of the time (Depending on both players ratings in passing, stealing, and badges like needle thread/interceptor).

When you add needle threader on Hall of fame. you get even more speed on your passes. your passes are super crips MOST times, not all the time. but MOST times. Here's the thing. everyone has complained for years about 2k's horrible passing speed. they fixed it. but its hidding behind a badge wall for needle threader. needle threader isnt just an increase in passing accuracy, its also an increase in passing speed. Or I should say, it stops the interceptor badge from Decreasing the passing speed/passing accuracy.

Think about that for a moment. the interceptor badge decreaes the speed and accuracy of your pass. That is not realistic at all. kawhi standing in the passing lane when non nba playing Splashmountain makes a pass in real life would not slow my pass down, nor change its trajectory prior to it reaching kawhi. The ball would travel at the same speed and go int the same direction until Kawhi tips it, the ball hits his body, or he steals it.
In 2k, that same scenario. would make the ball slow down because kawhi is a defender with a high steals rating and probably a high interceptor badge. this is where the cheese comes in. you add 2 more defenders and or 4 more people with that interceptor badge on silver or higher and they are all high rated 95+. all day steals fest. not because you are throwing real life bad passes. its because the defenders badges/ratings is effecting the direction and speed of your pass even when you throw what should be the correct pass.

So how to counter this? with OP cheese offense. you need multiple players , at least 2. with high ball handling, high overall above 94, and at least 2 people in the game with needle threader on Gold and we might want to throw in bail out for good measure(which is another cheese badge outside of bronze).
So you have you a dribble gawd, mixed in a Brick wall Gawd(fake pick animations sucking the defenders into the screen when you're not even close to it.
also you need 2 more shooters ,and the dribbler has to be WET from the outside off the dribble as well as a Giant Slayer on HALL, Contact Finisher gold+.
You need all of this to beat those pro am teams that are good that run zone like this all game long.

So you basically need cheese to beat the cheese. smart basketball isnt enough. unless you're playing vs guys that are my career 95+ guys. meaning they got all of their my players ratings up playing vs the cpu not in the rec or pro am. so they're not that good in those situations. yet they are highly rated.

This above is what turns 2k into a cheese fest and to more arcade like nba jam like basketball. its not OP dunks as much as it is OP shooting and OP slashing from small guys going up against multiple bigs in the paint. This approach forces people to cheese to win. when if they made the game properly. it would force people to play actual high IQ basketball to win more than lose.

If this game was truly about high iq basketball. your favorite highly rated pro am teams would be those that run a ton of real life plays/sets(not just 2 or 3). you would also see different approaches to defense. you dont see that level of strategy in this game. you see top teams sitting in zones or trying to trap all the time while someone spies. and you see 5 out offenses , and maybe 4 out and 1 in offenses. Pick at the top, thats it. BOOORING no flavor offenses and defenses. because thats the meta of the game if you want to be very successful vs top teams and top online players in the rec/pro am.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Agreed to disagree. I'm really starting to think that a lot of the passing "problems" would take care of itself if people use icon passing and actually understand offensive/defensive spacing. I'm reading everyone's complaints, and seeing it as people don't want the ball to be stolen during the pass regardless of their input which would make the offense even more potent. If you can't pass, then maybe PG really isn't your position. If you're using a different build, then it makes sense to me that the ball would get stolen due to you using a non-playmaking build.

I have videos posted in this thread about passing. I'm not sure why this is still a conversation. Maybe I'll just post more videos later.

[tru11]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Agreed to disagree. I'm really starting to think that a lot of the passing "problems" would take care of itself if people use icon passing and actually understand offensive/defensive spacing. I'm reading everyone's complaints, and seeing it as people don't want the ball to be stolen during the pass regardless of their input which would make the offense even more potent. If you can't pass, then maybe PG really isn't your position. If you're using a different build, then it makes sense to me that the ball would get stolen due to you using a non-playmaking build.

I have videos posted in this thread about passing. I'm not sure why this is still a conversation. Maybe I'll just post more videos later.

My C has 60 or less pass rating and does fine.
My 6`2 SG slashing playmaker has a 90 rating doing well
My new 6`0 SG all round 2way has an 80 rating and has been doing great so far.

[howardphillips214]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

My C has 60 or less pass rating and does fine.
My 6`2 SG slashing playmaker has a 90 rating doing well
My new 6`0 SG all round 2way has an 80 rating and has been doing great so far.

Yeah kicking up from a rebound doesn't get stolen very often, but it does happen.

What are your overalls on your guards? If you're over a 92 on either character, i want you to run about 5 games with randoms tomorrow. I want to know how many passes you get picked off. If you're only running every once in a while you probably aren't getting the sleeze teams. I faced a team with OVR all under 92 to 90 that were elites trying to pick on randoms. They came out in a zone.

[tru11]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Yeah kicking up from a rebound doesn't get stolen very often, but it does happen.

What are your overalls on your guards? If you're over a 92 on either character, i want you to run about 5 games with randoms tomorrow. I want to know how many passes you get picked off. If you're only running every once in a while you probably aren't getting the sleeze teams. I faced a team with OVR all under 92 to 90 that were elites trying to pick on randoms. They came out in a zone.

I have yet to play 1 game where i was squad up since what 2k16?

My first 2 characters are both 95+.

My 3rd build i made last week with 1 playmaking badge and is 87.

My turovers are either me making a bad decision or a defender running into me and knocking the ball out.
Or knocking a ball loose and the animation has me going out of bound with it.

Quite frankly my new build is a 2-3 zone beater, since it can shoot from deep and the mid range while being able to dribble.
Also has a 79 driving layup which im quite curions on how giant slayer will help as he is only 6`0.
cant wait for it to be badged up.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Yeah kicking up from a rebound doesn't get stolen very often, but it does happen.

What are your overalls on your guards? If you're over a 92 on either character, i want you to run about 5 games with randoms tomorrow. I want to know how many passes you get picked off. If you're only running every once in a while you probably aren't getting the sleeze teams. I faced a team with OVR all under 92 to 90 that were elites trying to pick on randoms. They came out in a zone.

Are you asking how many passes HE will get picked off? I would imagine that he will do just fine, because he's already (assuming this) a good passer. I run with randoms all the time. When I play, I'm not the person who's gets shook by the zone defense, and I can play against it just fine most times than not. It's my TEAMMATES that act like they don't know how to slow down and make smart passes. When the ball is in my hands, the offense runs fine and under control. Actually, I'm trying to do better with PnR passes where I'm attempting to add bounce passes to the rolling big ala Stockton/Malone.

Even in my one off experience, I recognized that they were cutting off my passing lanes and didn't throw wild passes. I feel like that I if played against enough "elite" zone defense, I think that I will eventually figure out how to beat effectively. At the end of day, it's a cheesy defense. If I encounter it enough times, I will learn how to play against it.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

I have yet to play 1 game where i was squad up since what 2k16?

My first 2 characters are both 95+.

My 3rd build i made last week with 1 playmaking badge and is 87.

My turovers are either me making a bad decision or a defender running into me and knocking the ball out.
Or knocking a ball loose and the animation has me going out of bound with it.

Quite frankly my new build is a 2-3 zone beater, since it can shoot from deep and the mid range while being able to dribble.
Also has a 79 driving layup which im quite curions on how giant slayer will help as he is only 6`0.
cant wait for it to be badged up.

Giant Slayer is must have on that height. I have Giant Slayer (G), Acrobat (G), Slithery Finish (G), and Contact Finisher (B). If you can get HOF badges, then Giant Slayer, Acrobat, and Slithery Finish are your goto badges. You don't need Contact Finisher that high, because you get mostly very low coverage percentages on your layup attempts. The only time Contact Finisher activates for me is when I pull off a dunk.

I'll let you pick your own dribble moves/packages, but most of my dribble packages are low (Iverson like) to prevent people from stealing the ball. Personally, I feel like that I can attack the paint at will, but you will get blocked a LOT in the beginning, lol. Once you figure out the proper driving lanes, when to attack the bigs, and how to properly utilize your euros/cradles/etc, man...there's something special about being a little player and scoring over bigs. Truthfully, I really hate that my driving dunk rating is so high, because sometimes I forget to let go of Turbo when driving.

[tru11]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Giant Slayer is must have on that height. I have Giant Slayer (G), Acrobat (G), Slithery Finish (G), and Contact Finisher (B). If you can get HOF badges, then Giant Slayer, Acrobat, and Slithery Finish are your goto badges. You don't need Contact Finisher that high, because you get mostly very low coverage percentages on your layup attempts. The only time Contact Finisher activates for me is when I pull off a dunk.

I'll let you pick your own dribble moves/packages, but most of my dribble packages are low (Iverson like) to prevent people from stealing the ball. Personally, I feel like that I can attack the paint at will, but you will get blocked a LOT in the beginning, lol. Once you figure out the proper driving lanes, when to attack the bigs, and how to properly utilize your euros/cradles/etc, man...there's something special about being a little player and scoring over bigs. Truthfully, I really hate that my driving dunk rating is so high, because sometimes I forget to let go of Turbo when driving.

i just copied everything iverson had with dribbeling lol
same with big where i copied everything from hakeem except the skyhook.

only have 6 finishing on my big.

im not really planning on attacking the basket so i might go teardropper with pro touch to add to my mid range game.

if not its probably giant slayer with acrobat as you mentioned.
my lay up can only reach max 79 now.

currently is 56 orso and i can do just fine on the break with the basic lay up package.
its pretty underrated as its a very fast animation.
really simple.

[tru11]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Are you asking how many passes HE will get picked off? I would imagine that he will do just fine, because he's already (assuming this) a good passer. I run with randoms all the time. When I play, I'm not the person who's gets shook by the zone defense, and I can play against it just fine most times than not. It's my TEAMMATES that act like they don't know how to slow down and make smart passes. When the ball is in my hands, the offense runs fine and under control. Actually, I'm trying to do better with PnR passes where I'm attempting to add bounce passes to the rolling big ala Stockton/Malone.

Even in my one off experience, I recognized that they were cutting off my passing lanes and didn't throw wild passes. I feel like that I if played against enough "elite" zone defense, I think that I will eventually figure out how to beat effectively. At the end of day, it's a cheesy defense. If I encounter it enough times, I will learn how to play against it.

when i make a pass i already considerd the risk vs the rewards.

so i pretty much know if there is a risk in it being intercepted.

basicially dont force anything.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

i just copied everything iverson had with dribbeling lol
same with big where i copied everything from hakeem except the skyhook.

only have 6 finishing on my big.

im not really planning on attacking the basket so i might go teardropper with pro touch to add to my mid range game.

if not its probably giant slayer with acrobat as you mentioned.
my lay up can only reach max 79 now.

currently is 56 orso and i can do just fine on the break with the basic lay up package.
its pretty underrated as its a very fast animation.
really simple.

Yeah....I had that dream of being a mid-range beast with my guild too, lol. I learned that those bigs cover the mid-range area too quick no matter how slow they are. I've been using the mid-range area more as branching of options after I get past my defender. If I shoot a mid-range jumper, that just meant that big dropped too far into the paint in order to defend against my possible layup attempt. I never use teardrop or floaters, so I really can't speak on that.

[tru11]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Yeah....I had that dream of being a mid-range beast with my guild too, lol. I learned that those bigs cover the mid-range area too quick no matter how slow they are. I've been using the mid-range area more as branching of options after I get past my defender. If I shoot a mid-range jumper, that just meant that big dropped too far into the paint in order to defend against my possible layup attempt. I never use teardrop or floaters, so I really can't speak on that.

yeah it depends alot on your teammates.

usually the bigs crowed the paint together humping each other with the 2 others usually somewhere in the corner or setting a screen.

usually means that if you beat your man you got a lot of space to work with to shoot or if their is help defense get the ball to the open man

[splashmountain]

Re: This is NOT playing defense. Stop it 2k.

Agreed to disagree. I'm really starting to think that a lot of the passing "problems" would take care of itself if people use icon passing and actually understand offensive/defensive spacing. I'm reading everyone's complaints, and seeing it as people don't want the ball to be stolen during the pass regardless of their input which would make the offense even more potent. If you can't pass, then maybe PG really isn't your position. If you're using a different build, then it makes sense to me that the ball would get stolen due to you using a non-playmaking build.

I have videos posted in this thread about passing. I'm not sure why this is still a conversation. Maybe I'll just post more videos later.

icon passing has similar issues to direction passing just not as bad.

and again, the problem with passing icon or direction was never an issue until they started to say "we're going to focus on defense this year" that was a few years ago.

2ks version of focusing on defense was to make it OP by having the defenders control the trajectory of the ball(ball speed, and ball direction)

it has nothing to do with spacing with what i'm talking about. Yes we know there are some teams/players who dont play smart basketball at all and they will force it into a bad area where a guy is literally spying that pass and will jump the passing lane. we're not talking about that at all. and no video would show what we're talking about UNLESS someone can record a video of the game being played and a video of the buttons pressed/ and which direction you're pushing the analog sticks. it all would have to be perfectly synced. so that people could see where you were aiming or who you were passing it to. then they would notice the ball is going in a completely different direction at times to go towards a defender for a steal/tip.

You want to believe this game is more sim than it really is. its not anymore. sorry to say.