Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

[ChaseB]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The bummer about this is it's not very hard to schematically play pick and roll defense as a user this year. Like, you have to give something up (as you should), but when I play online for example, if I play as the big/hedge defender, I trust my other teammates on the whole and can dictate outcomes for the most part. Obviously, as the helping big, you're going to lose sometimes because the pick and roll is still solid offense, but I don't feel helpless.

Now, against psychotic online players, 5 out can be a problem due to some other defensive issues in the game, but that's not related to pick and roll.

It's just the AI positioning for the help defender is so bad on PnR, and the on-ball defender now doesn't mind read and thus just gets caught flat footed too often or doesn't follow scheme for the AI that it causes the problem.

In a sense, it feels like a "small" issue to fix to get it working right, but in reality it is probably a pain in the butt to get the AI positioning itself right when factoring probably 100 things under the hood we don't see. Which, again, isn't to say it should be this bad because pick and roll is so commonplace that a lot of effort should go there first, but I can also see the guts of the defense seem okay if just some tweaks were made.

Alternatively, I love running pick and roll this year because navigating and splitting screens on next gen feels delicious. It's a big step forward there.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

The bummer about this is it's not very hard to schematically play pick and roll defense as a user this year. Like, you have to give something up (as you should), but when I play online for example, if I play as the big/hedge defender, I trust my other teammates on the whole and can dictate outcomes for the most part. Obviously, as the helping big, you're going to lose sometimes because the pick and roll is still solid offense, but I don't feel helpless.

Now, against psychotic online players, 5 out can be a problem due to some other defensive issues in the game, but that's not related to pick and roll.

It's just the AI positioning for the help defender is so bad on PnR, and the on-ball defender now doesn't mind read and thus just gets caught flat footed too often or doesn't follow scheme for the AI that it causes the problem.

In a sense, it feels like a "small" issue to fix to get it working right, but in reality it is probably a pain in the butt to get the AI positioning itself right when factoring probably 100 things under the hood we don't see. Which, again, isn't to say it should be this bad because pick and roll is so commonplace that a lot of effort should go there first, but I can also see the guts of the defense seem okay if just some tweaks were made.

Alternatively, I love running pick and roll this year because navigating and splitting screens on next gen feels delicious. It's a big step forward there.

First paragraph is a really good point.

That's why I can appreciate going back to the basics a bit as far as simple coverage. Spamming the P&R just isn't as viable H2H, nor do I have to handhold my entire defense to stop it...

Now, it's just about improving the A.I reaction. Id agree with Rob that as a HOF player, it gives enough variety to keep me engaged...better than it has been in a while.

In my experience: 2K16 had decent coverage and even better help defense awareness (as well as great rim protection animations to make you think twice, similar to Cujo's Live 19 remarks) but the corner was wiiiide open everytime.

2K17 was just a sludgefest all over the court, period.

2K18 was probably too far in the opposite with the blow-by's...pretty much nullifying a lot of the principles in place.

My issues with 2K19-2K20 was that the drive and kick was really lacking, no natural flow to get people open like you'd see in a real game. I don't mess with sliders a ton so others experiences might be different with these games (that's why I was asking) , but 2K21 has been some fresh air for me personally.

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[rudyjuly2]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

2K18 and 19 were so different. In 18 you had to bump up the body sensitivity and defence because blow byes were easy. 19 was the opposite. I felt 20 hit the sweet spot.

I don’t spam PNR that much. I try to free flow, run some floppy and look for open players. But I think this game simply needs better help rotations. In a real NBA game you have to make a second pass/swing to take advantage a lot of the time. Good defensive players can really close out well. Maybe in 2K22 but I doubt we see it this year at this point.

[STLRams]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

A possible simple solution would be if 2K added back in the help defense slider in the teams coaching sliders like they use to be. Now you have to start a game and then go into the menu gameplan to adjust them, and if you notice every temas slider is set at 50. This option should be in each teams initial team coaching sliders on the front menu like it is to be.

[Vedreanu]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

LOL, take a look at this:

https://youtu.be/TVMcla5XO_c?t=501

NBA helpD broken as well

[Vedreanu]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

My issues with 2K19-2K20 was that the drive and kick was really lacking, no natural flow to get people open like you'd see in a real game. I don't mess with sliders a ton so others experiences might be different with these games (that's why I was asking) , but 2K21 has been some fresh air for me personally.

Its possible to achieve nice drive-kick in 2k20 with not much tweaking of tendencies and sliders. But it results with for instance Giannis not playing like his real self, not driving much and definitely not hard. And also, low PIP at teams like GSW, POR, and other trigger happy.

By low I mean under 30 pts

2k20 was good with PNR and help defense, but really a hellish experience when you go down the tweaking rabbithole.

Cause, theres always something that sticks out, like lack of fouls, and if you fix that, then there is too much threes, too little PIP or something else. Always something.

[BaselineBakes]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

LOL, take a look at this:

https://youtu.be/TVMcla5XO_c?t=501

NBA helpD broken as well

The more NBA I watched last night, the more I thought that 2k might’ve been on to something, haha


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[EccentricMeat]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

A possible simple solution would be if 2K added back in the help defense slider in the teams coaching sliders like they use to be. Now you have to start a game and then go into the menu gameplan to adjust them, and if you notice every temas slider is set at 50. This option should be in each teams initial team coaching sliders on the front menu like it is to be.

Not every team is at 50, a few are at 35.

The only solution for this at the moment is to play MyNBA with 30 team control (you can automate everything for every team besides the want to control fully, if you’d like). The Help Defense slider shows up on the coach profile in MyNBA so you can set it once for each team and never have to mess with it again.

No idea why this is missing outside of MyNBA though.

[CujoMatty]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Not every team is at 50, a few are at 35.

The only solution for this at the moment is to play MyNBA with 30 team control (you can automate everything for every team besides the want to control fully, if you’d like). The Help Defense slider shows up on the coach profile in MyNBA so you can set it once for each team and never have to mess with it again.

No idea why this is missing outside of MyNBA though.

you can also take control of every team, change them all to 100 then stop controlling every team and it sticks. I'm 20 games past when I did that and all other teams besides mine still have help defense at 100.

[Dione2014]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I think the real issue is that the screens are just too effective. If you get caught on one of them you're just done... Like you're just so far out of the play that it becomes comical. Then you have the lead pass. I realized a few years ago it was a 2 man animation between the passer and the reciver, one that could not be broken by any outside object or player. They've gotten better over the years, but they break some areas in the game.

So now you have overpowering screens, then you have a lead pass mechanism that allows a player to rapidly pull another player on an entirely different angle for a pass catch. That's pure garbage and it's been like this for years.

The only difference is in the past title they used more video game solutions rather than basketball solutions to hide these issues. Moving into nextgen there's a lot of good. However, the issues brought in from last gen really shine now that the A.I is reacting more naturally on defense. So until they come up with a new screen and pass mechanism. It's just gonna be this way.

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[rudyjuly2]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

I think the real issue is that the screens are just too effective. If you get caught on one of them you're just done... Like you're just so far out of the play that it becomes comical. Then you have the lead pass. I realized a few years ago it was a 2 man animation between the passer and the reciver, one that could not be broken by any outside object or player. They've gotten better over the years, but they break some areas in the game.

So now you have overpowering screens, then you have a lead pass mechanism that allows a player to rapidly pull another player on an entirely different angle for a pass catch. That's pure garbage and it's been like this for years.

The only difference is in the past title they used more video game solutions rather than basketball solutions to hide these issues. Moving into nextgen there's a lot of good. However, the issues brought in from last gen really shine now that the A.I is reacting more naturally on defense. So until they come up with a new screen and pass mechanism. It's just gonna be this way.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Operation Sports mobile app

I agree on over powered screens. It’s as though everyone has the brick wall screen badge. I think if you drop the strength attribute slider down to 0 it helps reduce this.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Somebody (Eccentric Meat) needs to create a Google doc of every different thing he has tried and what has worked and what hasn't.



Sad state of affairs in this thread. Yall straight turned on each other over the pick and roll settings. I knew what was going on in here and I stepped in here to see what was going on as I just got on Next Gen. There is always one gameplay mechanic /bug that gets missed or not right every iteration. SMH.

[Churla]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

Super dumb question but where is the coach profile in my nba? I’ve looked everywhere

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

In my experience: 2K16 had decent coverage and even better help defense awareness (as well as great rim protection animations to make you think twice, similar to Cujo's Live 19 remarks) but the corner was wiiiide open everytime.

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I never understood the issues with the corner being open. On default the weakside corner should be the one tagging. If you dont want them to then change your offball settings.

I desperately miss the “tag on pick and roll” defensive setting. Since it’s been removed I havent been able to get anyone to consistently tag.

I watched a video of the Czar talking about next gen PnR D and it’s disappointing that he purposely removed actual nba coverages to support online players.

[jclazaris84]

Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

you guys think this has any chance of getting patched?