Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

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  • strosdood
    MVP
    • Nov 2020
    • 1166

    #241
    Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

    Originally posted by CujoMatty
    I just had the best game I've had so far and I'm trying not to get too excited as it was only one game but I couldnt abuse the pick and roll or the pick and pop at all. Honestly not at all.



    All I did was stro's suggestion of changing the top of the menu coach's strategy to switch and then the stay attached to no. I'm not to proud to say I didnt even know you could do that lol I was changing each individual option below to switch all and even though it looks like nothing should be different then switching just the top option, it sure does seem like the magic button for me.



    Just those minor changes was enough to make it way better but I also lowered just the user acceleration slider to 45 to give my players a minor disadvantage coming off a screen and like I said I couldnt abuse either pick action all game.



    Like you stated I'm sure this creates post mis matches but honestly I dont use the post much at all so I'm personally not overly concerned there. I also didn't have problems with wide open guys for 3 which was nice.



    I switched the user defense setting to switch as well and the stay attached to no and I seemed to get more fouls against me in the paint for free throws which low numbers were bothering me as well. Hope this also holds up and I'm golden.



    Anyways, I hope this isnt a one game anomaly cause I'm really optimistic for some enjoyment out of this game finally.



    I had another question for one thing I've never really understood. I have found good sliders for almost all other aspects of the game, rebounds, turnovers, three attempts, etc.... but I set them from superstar as a base. Does that matter or is it just a custom difficulty now? or should I go to hall of fame and redo the sliders with that as a base if I want to have hall of fame difficulty?


    That change made the game so much better for me and I’ve suggested it several times in these threads but I’m not sure many have gave it a try....... there’s other tweaks that u can make to help other stuff that arises but that’s the key one I’ve found to start with...... glad u had a better experience and hope it stays that way for u, I don’t think it’s gonna be an anomaly though as I’ve been doing it for a week or 2 now


    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Comment

    • Quentin32
      Pro
      • Sep 2015
      • 546

      #242
      Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

      People can check my history on OS. I cape for 2k like no other. Never said a bad word about the company. Always was optimistic. But I finally came to my senses it may be over for sim single player gamers. It’s unacceptable how bad this AI is. Sliders help but it’s just too many moments like this


      It’s nothing satisfying about this. Take a game like mlb the show. I got hundreds of games played and no matter what every time I get a hit or HR. I feel great like I accomplished something. In a way I feel that feeling making a jumper in 2k but driving to rim just feel like cheese. It shouldn’t feel that way when attacking the rim. Once u blow by someone. One would think the help defender that is looking at u would help so u can drop of a pass. But the help defender does nothing and get a dunk or easy layup. No resistance. This AI is joke. Even after 4 patches.


      I’m so disappointed with this game. Forgive my rant. It’s probably incoherent af. I’m too tired to proof read it lol
      Sorry I’ll patch it later
      Last edited by Quentin32; 12-22-2020, 02:50 AM.

      Comment

      • CujoMatty
        Member of Rush Nation
        • Oct 2007
        • 5445

        #243
        Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

        I've got more problems lol.

        Eccentrics settings have completely fixed the PNR issue for me but now I cant get anyone open ever. Like seriously ever. lol

        I've tried every freelance, calling plays, Pick and roll or pick and pop and I cant do anything to get anyone a decent shot. The cpu sticks to their man like glue and because they switch everything, screens dont do anything and there is no such thing as drive and dish as they will just switch. I cant shoot above 35% anymore.

        Any tips or tricks cause this is less fun than the borked PNR lol.
        2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
        2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
        2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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        • EccentricMeat
          MVP
          • Aug 2011
          • 3240

          #244
          Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

          Originally posted by CujoMatty
          I've got more problems lol.

          Eccentrics settings have completely fixed the PNR issue for me but now I cant get anyone open ever. Like seriously ever. lol

          I've tried every freelance, calling plays, Pick and roll or pick and pop and I cant do anything to get anyone a decent shot. The cpu sticks to their man like glue and because they switch everything, screens dont do anything and there is no such thing as drive and dish as they will just switch. I cant shoot above 35% anymore.

          Any tips or tricks cause this is less fun than the borked PNR lol.
          At that point you just have to use their switching against them to force mismatches, either on the perimeter or in the post. Get their bigs to defend your guards on the perimeter and drive past them, or get their guard to cover your big in the post and bang it down low.
          My Slider Threads
          NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
          The "Movement" Sliders Explained
          The "Defense" Sliders Explained

          Comment

          • Johnnythelegend
            Pro
            • Mar 2010
            • 812

            #245
            Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

            Has anybody tried removing badges? I think removing them would improve sim experience.

            Comment

            • jclazaris84
              Rookie
              • Feb 2018
              • 303

              #246
              Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

              Originally posted by Quentin32
              People can check my history on OS. I cape for 2k like no other. Never said a bad word about the company. Always was optimistic. But I finally came to my senses it may be over for sim single player gamers. It’s unacceptable how bad this AI is. Sliders help but it’s just too many moments like this


              It’s nothing satisfying about this. Take a game like mlb the show. I got hundreds of games played and no matter what every time I get a hit or HR. I feel great like I accomplished something. In a way I feel that feeling making a jumper in 2k but driving to rim just feel like cheese. It shouldn’t feel that way when attacking the rim. Once u blow by someone. One would think the help defender that is looking at u would help so u can drop of a pass. But the help defender does nothing and get a dunk or easy layup. No resistance. This AI is joke. Even after 4 patches.


              I’m so disappointed with this game. Forgive my rant. It’s probably incoherent af. I’m too tired to proof read it lol
              Sorry I’ll patch it later
              holy crap FOUR patches in and they haven't fixed this? i feel awful for u guys, seriously. glad they didn't port this one to pc, lol.

              Comment

              • CujoMatty
                Member of Rush Nation
                • Oct 2007
                • 5445

                #247
                Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                Originally posted by EccentricMeat
                At that point you just have to use their switching against them to force mismatches, either on the perimeter or in the post. Get their bigs to defend your guards on the perimeter and drive past them, or get their guard to cover your big in the post and bang it down low.
                ugh I was afraid that this was the solution.

                Not saying it's a bad solution it's just that it's not at all my playstyle or how I find enjoyment from the game.

                I like perimeter play, pick and pops, screens and freelance where shooters get open. I'm not really interested in blowing by bigs or post play.

                Anyways I guess I'll go back to trying out different sliders or cpu defensive settings to see if something can be done.

                I just wish Czar would fix the hedge defender. That's it and this could all be over lol. Everything else out of the box was fantastic. It's obviously not an easy fix.
                2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

                Comment

                • rudyjuly2
                  Cade Cunningham
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 14816

                  #248
                  Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                  The Switch All defensive settings seem to cause the cpu to just go under everything and you can’t even get a screen. Basically forces you to shoot outside jumpers all the time. I think this can be a good thing based on matchups or random outcomes but not every time.

                  I think the on ball screen settings need to stay automatic. Turning both hedge options to No Hedge and Stay Attached to No helps. I get more random options and the PNR doesn’t seem so bad. It’s the hedging that is broken.

                  Do both user and cpu coach settings stay saved in our setting file after we do it once? Seems like it works that way. I don’t think we have to go into the cpu settings every game to change them.

                  Comment

                  • EccentricMeat
                    MVP
                    • Aug 2011
                    • 3240

                    #249
                    Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                    Just wanted to say that I've been seeing great results with just setting all Defensive Settings to Auto and then using the slider tweaks I've posted.

                    Still not perfect as there are times when the help defense either watches, or rotates to help but then doesn't contest under the rim. But I haven't seen many times at all of the hedge defender just standing in place as you drive around him. And by increasing the minimum speed of players without the ball, centers are now able to at least get into a decent position when they drop or follow you to the rim.

                    I'd also recommend setting Layup Defense Strength (Gather) to 100 and Jump Shot Defense Strength (Takeoff) 60. The Layup setting will prioritize the defense protecting the paint as they'll react more quickly and aggressively when you attack the paint. The Jump Shot setting will make closeouts a bit faster so that a drive and kick or pick-and-pop isn't always a guaranteed open shot. I have both of the (Release) settings here at 80.

                    The only downside to these tweaks is that your FG% will probably significantly decrease unless you jack up the Shot Success sliders, which is something I'm still working on to find the right balance.
                    My Slider Threads
                    NBA 2K25 "The Eccentric Edition" Realistic Slider Set
                    The "Movement" Sliders Explained
                    The "Defense" Sliders Explained

                    Comment

                    • soze416
                      Rookie
                      • Oct 2010
                      • 82

                      #250
                      Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                      Originally posted by bls
                      True, could also be a difficulty thing as well. I just noticed a much better coverage in the pick n roll defense in this video.

                      Online the hedge defender never reacts. They just sit their and let the ball handler go straight to the rack. No reach, dive no nothing.

                      Your probably correct though.

                      Sent from my SM-F916U using Operation Sports mobile app


                      The pick and roll defense was significantly better in that video. Watch the defense reaction on screens. Both defenders actually move to prevent the drive to the basket on a lot of those screens. Some even briefly left the screener open if he faded to three point line

                      Comment

                      • The 24th Letter
                        ERA
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 39373

                        #251
                        Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                        Just curious, What 2K would you guys say had strong P&R defense, but still provided solid drive and kick opportunities?

                        Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
                        Last edited by The 24th Letter; 12-23-2020, 11:21 AM.

                        Comment

                        • rudyjuly2
                          Cade Cunningham
                          • Aug 2002
                          • 14816

                          #252
                          Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                          Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                          Just curious, What 2K would you guys say had strong P&R defense, but still provided solid drive and kick opportunities?

                          Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
                          I don’t even know. I never paid this much attention to it lol. I was fine with last year. I wish the defensive help slider worked better to get guys to collapse on the ball and generate better PNR defence and also more kick out attempts.

                          Comment

                          • BaselineBakes
                            MVP
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 1510

                            #253
                            Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                            Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                            Just curious, What 2K would you guys say had strong P&R defense, but still provided solid drive and kick opportunities?

                            Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

                            2k18 and 2k19 I remember having some really interesting plays off pick and roll actions. 2k20 was a bit more bumping than I would’ve liked so the drive opportunities were limited.

                            Not sure if this OneDrive link will work or not but it shows a big drop and then some solid weak side rotation that forces me to improvise - https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ai2fsLDoAmuug0D4uiYflQwMHuPS


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                            • alabamarob
                              MVP
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 3341

                              #254
                              Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                              Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                              Just curious, What 2K would you guys say had strong P&R defense, but still provided solid drive and kick opportunities?

                              Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
                              The pnr defense this year is by far the best overall. Simply because the ballhandler’ s ability to navigate screens, and more realistic on ball defense/shot contests.

                              The Cpu pick and roll defense i don’t even remember. The on ball defense was so overpowered that it probably covered up the AI pnr defense.
                              Last edited by alabamarob; 12-24-2020, 07:38 AM.
                              Psn: Alabamarob
                              Xbox: Alabama Rob

                              Youtube: 2k Hawks

                              Settings I play on.
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                              • CujoMatty
                                Member of Rush Nation
                                • Oct 2007
                                • 5445

                                #255
                                Re: Evidence why next gen pick and roll and help defense needs lots of work still

                                Originally posted by The 24th Letter
                                Just curious, What 2K would you guys say had strong P&R defense, but still provided solid drive and kick opportunities?

                                Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
                                I'm in the same boat as Rudy. It was never really a big enough issue for me to give it much thought before this year.

                                This whole situation reminds me a little of NBA Live 19. PNR wasnt as bad as this years 2k but it was too easy to abuse it and blow by the defender or to to abuse a drive and dish or pick and pop for wide open threes.

                                The way EA compensated for the ease of getting to the rim was having blocks be OP. Which was a bit ridiculous but I actually liked it because it really made you think about taking unwise layups with a shorter player. I would gladly take OP blocks over what's happening now lol.

                                As far as the pick and pop or drive and kick issue, they patched that around patch 5 or so and it ruined the game. The CPU switched everything and played tight with no consequence on everybody so it was impossible to get anyone open. Pretty much the same thing the "user fix" discovered by the community here has done.
                                2016 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                                2018 NLL Champion Saskatchewan Rush
                                2019 CEBL Champion Saskatchewan Rattlers

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