Dirk or Hakeem?

[howardphillips214]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Dirk operated his entire career off the elbows and from distance. Every other "great" big man was on the low block.

Tim Duncan may be the most comparable player to Dirk but was never the shooter from distance.

KAT doesn't have half the array of post moves Dirk did.

I wonder if you even watch NBA or you literally just read Pro Basketball Reference for fun.

Not to mention everyone you've spouted so far is 10x the athlete Dirk is, even Luka. Dirk couldn't jump over a phone book even in his prime.

People knock him for his D but how many players have 30k points and 1000 blocks?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

KAT takes open pick and pop jumpers. Dirk was shooting off the bounce, for elbows, down low. He was given the ball at the end of games.

His cutch stats are as good as anyone.

KAT hasn’t a meaningful shot on his career.

That poster doesn’t have the eye.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Dirk operated his entire career off the elbows and from distance. Every other "great" big man was on the low block.
KAT doesn't have half the array of post moves Dirk did.
I wonder if you even watch NBA or you literally just read Pro Basketball Reference for fun.
Not to mention everyone you've spouted so far is 10x the athlete Dirk is, even Luka. Dirk couldn't jump over a phone book even in his prime.

None of which has anything to do with the drivel you spouted about Dirk's imagined impact.

People knock him for his D but how many players have 30k points and 1000 blocks?

Dirk is 4th All-Time in Minutes Played and 53rd All-Time in Blocks.

I understand Math is not your strong suit, but allow me to explain this gap for the rest of us who aren't willfully ignorant.

He trails Greg Ostertag, who *checks notes*, played 37,000 fewer minutes.

Hakeem, of course, is the All-Time leader in Blocks, with 3,830 to Dirk's 1,281.
He recorded more than 3x as many Blocks than Dirk did, despite playing 7,000 fewer minutes (23rd All-Time) and 300 fewer games.

Dirk having 1,000 blocks in his career has more to do with his offensive prowess allowing him to play long enough to stumble into that total. Only an idiot would look at the block totals of players like Amare Stoudemire or Derrick Coleman and try to infer that they were good defensive players.

Hakeem ranks 41st All-Time in PPG and 3rd All-Time in BPG
Dirk ranks 50th All-Time in PPG and 212th All-Time in BPG.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

KAT takes open pick and pop jumpers. Dirk was shooting off the bounce, for elbows, down low. He was given the ball at the end of games.

Dirk literally redefined the Pick & Pop big man and practically invented the big trailing in transition. He wasn't doing **** off the bounce.

2PT Assisted%
Dirk: 57%
KAT: 60%

3PT Assisted%
Dirk: 95% - he had a grand total of two seasons under 90% (2005, 2007)
KAT: 92%

Towns has been top 10 in Post touches every season he's been in the league.

Only 22% of Dirk's shots came inside of 10 feet.
Compare this to 57% for Towns. GTFOH with this imaginary "down low" BS.

KAT hasn’t a meaningful shot on his career.

This is more a Minnesota thing than a Towns thing. Name a memorable KG shot from before he turned 30.

That poster doesn’t have the eye.

You've probably watched 5 minutes of Towns collectively in your life, and you literally have a Dirk avatar. Keep your homerism at the door if you're gonna passive aggressively have my name in your mouth.

I'm not a Towns fan - I'm simply not emotionally devastated by the comparison.


Here's 3 more minutes you can add to your career total. You're welcome.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oQQWE6_2Dh8" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jd@os]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Like others, I agree with the sentiment that best (and better) is different than greatest (and greater). For instance, Babe Ruth is one of the greatest baseball players of all time....but there are a lot of baseball players post-Ruth-era that might be better but not greater.

Greatest international player might go to Oscar Schmidt. When it comes to Dirk or Hakeem, I agree with some other posters giving the nod to Hakeem for the same reason: offense and defense.

Hakeem was one of those players who was probably closest to the top of being the best offensive player and defensive player on the floor night in and night out.

[jyod21]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

It depends on how you define "international player."

Dirk gets called the greatest international player to never play in the American system, prior to the NBA. Hakeem played 3 years in the NCAA, and thus wasn't drafted as an international player, so that clarifier takes him out of that conversation, for some people. If you're considering them on equal footing, then Hakeem would be the greater of the two. Tim Duncan is another one, depending on how someone classifies the Virgin Islands.

If you're only classifying them as people who never played in the US prior, then Dirk would be the greatest, with Giannis and soon to be Luka coming up behind him in the future.

Dirk was also far from an unknown coming into the NBA. I would assume you're young, if you think that. I apologize if that assumption is wrong. Once he lit the US National Team up, as a teenager, he was on everyone's radar. Just listen to any snippet from Charles Barkley or Scottie Pippen about him, prior to being drafted.

There is also no possible way Dirk could still play right now. Have you seen him walk recently? His poor knees are destroyed.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Still smh at dirk n kat. Luka was younger than dirk right and dirk didnt come in as a star, compare them when they hit their stride. Luka mite legit be better than dirk when its all done, but if he doesnt get a ring for dal, hes not that dude. Like kawhi isnt raps atg because he won a ring but dirk played like 20 yrs and won a ring. When u arent on a dynasty team a ring is big.

-Smak

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

If you're only classifying them as people who never played in the US prior, then Dirk would be the greatest, with Giannis and soon to be Luka coming up behind him in the future.

Giannis > Dirk already, to be clear

Giannis has already made All-NBA First Team (5x) more than Dirk ever did. Has as many rings, and double the MVPs.

Giannis (Age 27)
2x MVP (Age 24, Age 25)
1x DPOY (Age 25)
1x Finals MVP (Age 26)
6x All-Star
6x All-NBA (5x First Team, 1x Second Team)
5x All-Defense (4x First Team, 1x Second Team)
76 Playoff Games (1x Finals Win, 1x Conf, 2x Second, 3x First)

Giannis also made the 75th Anniversary Team at Age 27.

Giannis is dueling the likes of Tim Duncan for the greatest PF in NBA history. Dirk was simply a tier (or two) below him.

Dirk (Age 27)
0x MVP (Didn't win until Age 28)
0x DPOY (Lol)
0x Finals MVP (Didn't win until Age 32)
5x All-Star
6x All-NBA (2x First Team, 2x Second Team, 2x Third Team)
76 Playoff Games (1x Finals Loss, 1x Conf, 3x Second, 1x First)

It's once again worth noting that Dirk experienced the bulk of his playoff success early in his career.
His results after Age 27: 1x Finals Win, 1x Second Round, 7x First Round

^Is there anyone who'll argue Giannis won't do better than this over his next 10 seasons? I'm sure our Dirk fanboys have something to say. Or perhaps not. They're still glossing over Cinderella 2011.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Still smh at dirk n kat. Luka was younger than dirk right and dirk didnt come in as a star, compare them when they hit their stride.

Luka is 22 years old. What makes you think he's "hit his stride?"

If Dirk didn't come in as a star, that's a knock against him. You know who DID come in as a star? Jordan. LeBron. Kareem. Shaq. Wilt. All-time greats.

Luka mite legit be better than dirk when its all done, but if he doesnt get a ring for dal, hes not that dude.

Oh please. Chris Paul, Karl Malone, John Stockton, etc would like a word. It ain't like Kevin Durant is that dude bc he joined the Warriors. Anybody out here gonna call Anthony Davis "that dude" compared to Nikola Jokic?

Rings are level 0 sports conversation

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Dirk literally redefined the Pick & Pop big man and practically invented the big trailing in transition. He wasn't doing **** off the bounce.

2PT Assisted%
Dirk: 57%
KAT: 60%

3PT Assisted%
Dirk: 95% - he had a grand total of two seasons under 90% (2005, 2007)
KAT: 92%

Towns has been top 10 in Post touches every season he's been in the league.

Only 22% of Dirk's shots came inside of 10 feet.
Compare this to 57% for Towns. GTFOH with this imaginary "down low" BS.



This is more a Minnesota thing than a Towns thing. Name a memorable KG shot from before he turned 30.




You've probably watched 5 minutes of Towns collectively in your life, and you literally have a Dirk avatar. Keep your homerism at the door if you're gonna passive aggressively have my name in your mouth.

I'm not a Towns fan - I'm simply not emotionally devastated by the comparison.


Here's 3 more minutes you can add to your career total. You're welcome.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oQQWE6_2Dh8" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You can’t even see some of your numbers refute your own point.


Dude there’s a reason why posters think you’re a complete wanker.

I’m not being passive aggressive. I’m stating openly you talk as if you’re some grand lord of nba analysis. You’re not.

‘2k insider’. lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

You can’t even see some of your numbers refute your own point.

Not that you're capable of even elaborating on that.

I’m stating openly you talk as if you’re some grand lord of nba analysis.

You're projecting.

I simply don't wear rose-colored sunglasses, and leave my emotions at the door when evaluating players.

I like Dirk Nowitzki, and was a fan for his entire career (as were most people, I'd imagine). I'm not going to suspend disbelief and pretend he was the most influential player in NBA history. That's complete and utter hogwash.

[TonyStark1964]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Although Hakeem is technically an international player...When I think of international players I don't necessarily think of him first because he was a dominant player and all-american in the NCAA at The University of Houston and part of Phi Slamma Jamma which had big notoriety in the NCAA Tournaments.


Re Dirk...for me he's more "authentically" international on the strength that he did not play in the NCAA and had pretty much been an international phenom with no real notoriety in the USA before his NBA draft at age 19.

Style-Wise I'd have to say Dirk brought more Euro flavor as opposed to Hakeem who was one of the most dominant big men ever to play in the NBA

I commented on a video on YouTube calling Dirk the greatest international player of all time and got in an argument about this today. I've also been hearing how Steph "changed the game" a lot after his most recent title. Speaking from a 2K standpoint I definitely noticed a shift in gameplay after Steph's MVP season. But I am convinced Steph doesn't have the career he's had if it weren't for Dirk. The percentages of his career look fantastic as this was the FIRST year in his entire career he finished under 40% from distance for a regular season. Cap that with his 4th title and Finals MVP and every pundit and talking head has been debating Steph as a top 10 player.

But I'll even take it a step further. I truly believe Dirk has been the most INFLUENTIAL player in the entire NBA.

Most of Reggie and Ray Allen's careers never had the spacing Steph does now. While the Warriors took things a step further and making the 5-out offense a viable option, the league has really only been playing 4-1 sets since Dirk got drafted and started winning 50 games a year for over a decade. The Spurs are the only team that had a longer streak of making the playoffs but the Mavs never had the roster continuity of the Spurs and Duncan had much better coaching and a much better supporting cast than Dirk.

The 2 most unguardable shots in NBA history are the Skyhook and Dirks fadeaway midrange turnaround jumper, and not in that order.

The fact that Dirk is top 6 all time in scoring, an MVP, Finals MVP and NBA champion being the LONE all-star on the roster (1 of 7 times that happened) and beating the BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE at that time with 2 other MULTIPLE time All-stars is so frustratingly over-looked.

Dirk "changed the game" more than anyone in the history of the NBA IMO. Jordan made the league the most popular it's ever been. But his greatest achievement was OFF the court in how he revolutionized how athletes could get paid with endorsements in signing his Nike deal. The money he's made off merchandise VS his money he made while playing isn't even close. Lebron being a billionaire while still being an active player is remarkable. But there's not a SINGLE accomplishment on or off the court that Kobe and Jordan didn't make possible for him.

Dirk was COMPLETELY unknown when he got drafted and was thought of as a bust after his rookie season. The journey he took has never been duplicated and there's never been anyone CLOSE to his skill set since. The most comparable player since Dirk is maybe Kevin Durant and that's strictly due to his size, not his game. Catch and shoot, post game, and the fact he was NEVER as athletic as any of the members of the top 10 in scorers should not be forgotten. MULTIPLE paycuts and 21 years with the same franchise (to his own detriment I'll admit, especially after the 2011 season) and only Kobe can say 20 but he took almost 2 years off and was never the same after his Achilles injury.

Dirk COULD have retired 2 years earlier but was STILL efficient in his final season as I'm SURE he could still play spotty minutes for any team in the league RIGHT NOW.

If he never had to run the court or play defense, you could EASILY count on Dirk for 10-12 points a game till he was 50 if all he has to do was catch and shoot.

Steph and his showboating will get all the headlines. Jordan has his rings and his dunks. Kobe was mini-Jordan. Lebron is the most TALENTED player we've ever seen but has woefully underperformed EVEN with his super teams.

Dirk went about his business for 21 years and never had bad interviews. Was a consummate professional. Rewarded loyalty regardless of how it worked out for himself. "Changed the game" doesn't even cut it IMO. There's never been anyone like him and I don't believe we'll ever see it again. Luka has the POTENTIAL to surpass Dirk as the greatest international player and maybe already has. But unless he wins multiple championships and never leaves and retires in Dallas he might not even be the greatest MAVERICK.

[howardphillips214]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Obv Giannis and KAT and Hakeem ALL had better STATS bro. But like I said... Not ONE person you've listed did more damage from the elbows and the nail. Dirks jumper was a work of art and science coached up by Holger.

You've still yet to counter my point about how Dirk was the first player to CONSISTENTLY pull his matchup out of the paint revolutionizing how the game is played today. Not a SINGLE team in the current NBA consistently runs a 3-2 set. Dirk did that. Not KAT. Not Hakeem.

Post Nash and Finley, name ONE other All Star Dirk played with. I'll wait.

[rwntrl]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Obv Giannis and KAT and Hakeem ALL had better STATS bro. But like I said... Not ONE person you've listed did more damage from the elbows and the nail. Dirks jumper was a work of art and science coached up by Holger.

You've still yet to counter my point about how Dirk was the first player to CONSISTENTLY pull his matchup out of the paint revolutionizing how the game is played today. Not a SINGLE team in the current NBA consistently runs a 3-2 set. Dirk did that. Not KAT. Not Hakeem.

Post Nash and Finley, name ONE other All Star Dirk played with. I'll wait.

Josh Howard, Luke Doncic, and Jason Kidd were All Stars in seasons played with Dirk.

Though not All Stars while playing with Dirk, this is the list:
Tyson Chandler
Shawn Marion
Nick Van Exel
Jerry Stackhouse
Vince Carter
Juwan Howard
Deron Williams
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Caron Butler
Tim Hardaway Sr.
Christian Laettner
Eddie Jones
Rajon Rondo
Peja Stojakovic
Chris Kaman
Danny Manning
Amare Stoudemire
David Lee
Jameer Nelson
Deandre Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kevin Willis

So can you say Dirk carried a bunch of role players to a title like Hakeem did in 94?

[ILLSmak]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Luka is 22 years old. What makes you think he's "hit his stride?"

If Dirk didn't come in as a star, that's a knock against him. You know who DID come in as a star? Jordan. LeBron. Kareem. Shaq. Wilt. All-time greats.



Oh please. Chris Paul, Karl Malone, John Stockton, etc would like a word. It ain't like Kevin Durant is that dude bc he joined the Warriors. Anybody out here gonna call Anthony Davis "that dude" compared to Nikola Jokic?

Rings are level 0 sports conversation

Lukas stride doesnt matter, were talkin about dirks stride and luka aint that. Giannis isnt 2nd best pf ever yet either. U have recency and overreliance on stats. I think stats are as bad as rings. When someone carrys like dirk to finals and fmvp vs a bloomin dynasty. Context is important cuz stats are much different.

Ill give u that ostertag is a better shot blocker tho.

-Smak