Dirk or Hakeem?

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  • howardphillips214
    MVP
    • Jan 2018
    • 1928

    #46
    Re: Dirk or Hakeem?



    Glenn James/Getty Images
    Ranking the NBA's Greatest Shooting Bigs of All Time
    ANDY BAILEY
    JULY 05, 2020

    The role of a big man in the NBA has changed dramatically over the last 20 years.

    From the start of the league through the 1990s, power forwards and centers were generally the biggest, brawniest players in the lineup. They were the bruisers. They controlled the paint and the boards. And they did most of their offensive damage within a few feet of the rim, often with back-to-the-basket post moves.

    Today, bigs are expected to do much more. Nikola Jokic is one of the best passers in the world and has popularized playmaking from the big. Bam Adebayo can switch defensive assignments all over the floor. And perhaps most importantly, most teams now carry 5s who can stretch the floor with threes.

    It's that last evolution that is today's focus. Who are the best shooting bigs of all time? Let's look to some data to answer that question.


    Methodology and Close Calls

    Rocky Widner/Getty Images
    The methodology on this one is far simpler than some of our other recent historic deep dives.

    First, we narrowed league history down to a sample group of players who are 6'9" and up, played at least 60 percent of their career possessions as a power forward or center and launched at least 500 three-point attempts.

    From there, we calculated the points over average from the field (subtract the player's effective field-goal percentage from the league average for the time and then multiply by the number of field-goal attempts) and the points over average from three (subtract the player's three-point percentage from the league average for the time and then multiply by the number of three-point attempts) for each member of that group.

    Finally, we sorted each player in the group by the average of his rank in those two metrics.

    Some of the names in the top 10 may surprise you, but the way the list skews toward more modern history should not. Threes from bigs are far more prevalent than they used to be. And even though these numbers adjust for league averages during the years each player played, the sheer volume of outside shooting from today's power forwards and centers is tough for those from earlier eras to overcome.

    Still, there are a couple of names from previous decades who show up in spots 11 through 20, which reads as follows: Kelly Olynyk, Matt Bullard, Al Horford, Serge Ibaka, Raef LaFrentz, Meyers Leonard, Nemanja Bjelica, Bill Laimbeer, Terry Mills and Mehmet Okur.

    Now, with the housekeeping out of the way, let's get into the top 10.


    10-6

    David Zalubowski/Associated Press
    10. Pat Garrity

    Notre Dame product Pat Garrity spent most of his career as a power forward for the Orlando Magic.

    Over the course of his career, he attempted 1,587 threes and shot 39.8 percent from deep. If you sort the nine players who matched or exceeded both marks during that stretch, Garrity's height (6'9") trailed only 6'10" Peja Stojakovic, who played almost exclusively at the 3.



    9. Danny Ferry

    Another power forward, 6'10" Danny Ferry averaged 1.5 threes per 75 possessions and shot 39.3 percent from downtown.

    Over the course of his career, 17 players matched or exceeded both those numbers and played at least 10,000 minutes. Ferry is the only big man on that list.



    8. Vladimir Radmanovic

    Vladimir Radmanovic was one of the earlier examples of a big who was also a volume three-point shooter.

    During his 12 NBA seasons, 49.6 percent of Radmanovic's shot attempts came from three, a mark that trailed only one player his height or taller.

    Combining volume with efficiency (his 37.8 three-point percentage was over two points higher than the league average of the time) made Radmanovic a distinct plus for much of the 2000s.



    7. Davis Bertans

    Davis Bertans' cracking the top 10 in just his fourth NBA season is partly due to how much the game has changed recently, but it shouldn't detract from what a remarkable start he's off to.

    His first three seasons with the San Antonio Spurs were solid. He averaged 6.2 points and shot 40.4 percent from three there. But his 2019-20 with the Washington Wizards has been absurd.

    His 3.7 threes per game rank as the 10th-best mark in league history (and the best for a big). But that's not all. When you limit the sample to those who had at least as high a three-point percentage as Bertans' 42.4, the big man's 2019-20 average trails only two Stephen Curry seasons.



    6. Channing Frye

    Over Channing Frye's first four seasons with the New York Knicks and Portland Trail Blazers, he was 20-of-70 (28.6 percent) from three. Then Mike D'Antoni and the Phoenix Suns got ahold of him.

    During his five years in Phoenix, Frye was 15th in the league (and second among bigs) in total threes. And that run included the 2012-13 campaign, which Frye missed entirely with an enlarged heart.

    By the time he retired, Frye had hit 1,049 threes while shooting 38.8 percent from deep. He's second all time in threes made by a 7-footer.


    5. Ryan Anderson

    Fernando Medina/Getty Images
    Dirk Nowitzki, the seven-seconds-or-less Suns and Mike D'Antoni often and rightfully get the lion's share of the credit for revolutionizing what it means to be a big man in the NBA.

    Stan Van Gundy and the Orlando Magic of the late 2000s and early 2010s deserve to be mentioned in this conversation as well.

    The philosophy of surrounding paint-bound Dwight Howard with three-point shooting made Orlando a uniquely challenging offense to face. And Ryan Anderson fit in perfectly there.

    During his three seasons with the Magic, the team was plus-13.8 points per 100 possessions when Howard and Anderson were on the floor, compared to plus-5.3 when Howard played without Anderson.

    The latter's shooting ability forced opposing 4s to stay home on the outside, giving Howard precious extra space on post-ups and rolls to the rim.

    In 2011-12 alone, Anderson led all NBA players, regardless of size, in both threes (166) and three-point attempts. And his volume went up from there. He had seasons with 200-plus threes for the New Orleans Pelicans and Houston Rockets.

    Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic, both of whom spent more time at the 3 than the 4, are the only other 6'9"-plus players with multiple 200-three seasons.


    4. Karl-Anthony Towns

    Michael Reaves/Getty Images
    Karl-Anthony Towns has only been in the league for one more season than Davis Bertans. For a formula that heavily incorporates volume to already have him in the top five is a testament to his stellar shooting.

    Over the course of his career, Towns has averaged 1.4 threes and shot 39.6 percent from deep. But in this abbreviated season alone, his attempts have taken off. He averaged 3.3 makes on 7.9 shots from downtown per game in 2019-20.

    But as you'll see is the case with our No. 1 on this list, Towns' shooting goes beyond his prowess from three. Of his 5,741 career field-goal attempts, 43.8 percent have been two-pointers in the range of three feet from the rim out to the three-point line. He's converted 46.2 percent of those attempts.

    He significantly reduced his volume from the mid-range this season, but there's no question he remains one of the game's true three-level scorers.


    3. Steve Novak

    Nathaniel S. Butler/Getty Images
    "Shooter" may be a more apt description of Steve Novak than "big," but Basketball Reference pegs 66 percent of his career possessions at power and center, qualifying him for this list.

    And once he was in, there was little doubt he'd finish high. Shooting, particularly from three, was the beginning, middle and end of Novak's game.

    "That's what I do," Novak said of casting off from deep in 2012. "I shoot perimeter shots. When it's there, I shoot it. When it's not, I don't."

    And when he did, it often went in.

    Novak's career three-point percentage of 43.0 ranks fifth all time among players with at least 1,000 attempts. And the fact that 77.9 percent of all his shots came from three vaults him even higher up the leaderboard if you sort by effective field-goal percentage.

    In fact, Novak's 60.5 effective field-goal percentage ranks first all time among that same group of players.


    2. Matt Bonner

    D. Clarke Evans/Getty Images
    Much like Steve Novak, Matt Bonner's game was largely predicated on the ability to shoot. He may not have been quite as efficient as Novak, but he was still scoring significantly more points on his attempts than the average shooter.

    And he leveraged his efficiency in a bigger role than Novak, finishing his career with 7,699 more minutes and 586 more three-point attempts.

    Spurs coach Gregg Popovich trusted Bonner, particularly in the late 2000s and early 2010s. From the 2008-09 season to 2011-12, Bonner played 21.1 minutes per game, made 1.5 threes and shot 42.7 percent from three.

    In the same stretch, San Antonio was plus-9.3 points per 100 possessions with Bonner on the floor and plus-3.2 with him off. When he shared the floor with both Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili, the team was plus-13.4 points per 100 possessions.

    Supplementing Duncan's post play and Ginobili's slashing and playmaking with elite floor spacing like that provided by Bonner gave the Spurs an offensive dynamism that wasn't quite there otherwise.

    When those three were on the floor, San Antonio scored 119.1 points per 100 possessions, compared to 112.5 when Duncan and Ginobili played without Bonner.


    1. Dirk Nowitzki

    Danny Bollinger/Getty Images
    Big shocker, right?

    Regardless of the methodology used to compile this list, Dirk Nowitzki was likely to finish in the top spot. He leads the group sampled in career points over average from the field, points over average from three and total threes made.

    He's 15th in the group in three-point percentage, but every player ahead of him there attempted significantly fewer triples. Nowitzki's 5,210 career three-point attempts isn't just first among 7-footers—it nearly doubles second-place Channing Frye's 2,706. It's more than second place and third place combined.

    And all those jumpers from the legendary power forward helped put him on the short list of players who truly changed basketball.

    From 1979-80 (the first NBA season with a three-point line) to 1997-98 (the last pre-Dirk season), all 7-footers averaged 0.1 three-point attempts per 36 minutes and shot 22.2 percent from three. From 1998-99 to now, 7-footers have averaged 1.0 three-point attempts per 36 minutes and shot 34.9 percent from deep. And even if you take Dirk's numbers out of the mix, that bunch still averaged 0.8 attempts per 36 and shot 34.1 percent.

    Beyond the threes, Dirk was also one of the game's best mid-range shooters for two decades. He was the league leader in two-pointers from 10 feet and out in nine different seasons, and he shot 47.2 percent on those attempts over the course of his career. For context's sake, DeMar DeRozan is working on a single-season career-high percentage from that range of 43.9.

    The prolific shooting didn't just lead to individual accolades and great numbers, either. Over the course of Nowitzki's career, the Dallas Mavericks were second in the NBA in winning percentage, first in points per 100 possessions and tied for third in effective field-goal percentage.


    Comment

    • Real2KInsider
      MVP
      • Dec 2003
      • 4657

      #47
      Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

      Originally posted by ILLSmak
      Jason Kidd?
      Jason Kidd came to Dallas as a 34-year old, 11x All-Star, the best PG of his generation, and one of the All-Time greats. He made one more All-Star game in 2010 at Age 36.

      But don't worry, OP considers him one of the scrubs that Dirk carried.

      Jet?
      Jason Terry fit well in Dallas for 8 seasons, seeing his shooting percentage markedly improve. We have one Sixth Man winner. Surely there is another player who improved next to Dirk in his 20 year career?

      The thing is players don't make other players better, they fit into a system and either give them more space or a different opportunity.
      Systems are built around star players. The system that catered to Dirk was rigid and inflexible, and Dirk himself wasn't capable of adapting his playstyle to accommodate anyone.

      Guys like washed Rondo
      Rondo was 28. He was an All-Star at 26 and lead the league in APG.
      He went on to lead the league in APG again IMMEDIATELY after leaving Dallas.

      washed Collison
      Collison was Age 25. TF are you talking about lol. He played 6 more seasons at a starter/6th quality before retiring early.

      washed Kardash Odom
      Odom was Age 32 and coming off his career season, and very clearly did not fit into the Dirk System. Off-court, Cuban beefed w/ him & bullied him almost immediately (even giving him a ceremonial D-League demotion for a day just because he could - again, this is a 2x champ who was named 6th man of the year months prior). Dirk was Cuban's boy and never intervened or showed any leadership while this was going on.

      The point is this didn't happen to other greats. Few players join up with a Tim Duncan or LeBron or Giannis and have the worst season of their career. That's what makes those players great. If a super role player like Odom joined up with any of those guys nobody doubts it would have been business as usual.

      This all plays into why Dirk only won one title in 20 years despite his individual greatness.

      The Warriors just won their 4th title in 8 years and had "bums" like Gary Payton II and Otto Porter (washed) on minimum deals. Porter was starting Finals games and GP2 signed a 28M contract after barely making the team in camp. So again I ask, where are these players that Dirk/DAL elevated? Why are there significantly more established players that got buried in DAL in the Dirk era than there were success stories about diamonds in the rough?
      Last edited by Real2KInsider; 07-02-2022, 11:07 AM.
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      Comment

      • Real2KInsider
        MVP
        • Dec 2003
        • 4657

        #48
        Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

        Originally posted by howardphillips214
        Ranking the NBA's Greatest Shooting Bigs of All Time
        ANDY BAILEY
        JULY 05, 2020
        You should ask Andy where Towns ranks two years later (or maybe I will, since we both follow each other and regularly interact).
        (He is a highly recommended follow btw)

        It's doubtful you actually read the article either:

        4. Karl-Anthony Towns
        Karl-Anthony Towns has only been in the league for one more season than Davis Bertans. For a formula that heavily incorporates volume to already have him in the top five is a testament to his stellar shooting.

        Over the course of his career, Towns has averaged 1.4 threes and shot 39.6 percent from deep. But in this abbreviated season alone, his attempts have taken off. He averaged 3.3 makes on 7.9 shots from downtown per game in 2019-20.

        But as you'll see is the case with our No. 1 on this list, Towns' shooting goes beyond his prowess from three. Of his 5,741 career field-goal attempts, 43.8 percent have been two-pointers in the range of three feet from the rim out to the three-point line. He's converted 46.2 percent of those attempts.

        He significantly reduced his volume from the mid-range this season, but there's no question he remains one of the game's true three-level scorers.
        Not sure what posting this was supposed to prove since you wrote:

        The journey he took has never been duplicated and there's never been anyone CLOSE to his skill set since.
        This is very clearly not the case. Thank you for finally getting on board and agreeing that KAT and Dirk are in the same ballpark.
        Last edited by Real2KInsider; 07-02-2022, 10:50 AM.
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        Comment

        • ILLSmak
          MVP
          • Sep 2008
          • 2397

          #49
          Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

          Originally posted by Real2KInsider
          Jason Kidd came to Dallas as a 34-year old, 11x All-Star, the best PG of his generation, and one of the All-Time greats. He made one more All-Star game in 2010 at Age 36.

          But don't worry, OP considers him one of the scrubs that Dirk carried.



          Jason Terry fit well in Dallas for 8 seasons, seeing his shooting percentage markedly improve. We have one Sixth Man winner. Surely there is another player who improved next to Dirk in his 20 year career?



          Systems are built around star players. The system that catered to Dirk was rigid and inflexible, and Dirk himself wasn't capable of adapting his playstyle to accommodate anyone.



          Rondo was 28. He was an All-Star at 26 and lead the league in APG.
          He went on to lead the league in APG again IMMEDIATELY after leaving Dallas.



          Collison was Age 25. TF are you talking about lol. He played 6 more seasons at a starter/6th quality before retiring early.



          Odom was Age 32 and coming off his career season, and very clearly did not fit into the Dirk System. Off-court, Cuban beefed w/ him & bullied him almost immediately (even giving him a ceremonial D-League demotion for a day just because he could - again, this is a 2x champ who was named 6th man of the year months prior). Dirk was Cuban's boy and never intervened or showed any leadership while this was going on.

          The point is this didn't happen to other greats. Few players join up with a Tim Duncan or LeBron or Giannis and have the worst season of their career. That's what makes those players great. If a super role player like Odom joined up with any of those guys nobody doubts it would have been business as usual.

          This all plays into why Dirk only won one title in 20 years despite his individual greatness.

          The Warriors just won their 4th title in 8 years and had "bums" like Gary Payton II and Otto Porter (washed) on minimum deals. Porter was starting Finals games and GP2 signed a 28M contract after barely making the team in camp. So again I ask, where are these players that Dirk/DAL elevated? Why are there significantly more established players that got buried in DAL in the Dirk era than there were success stories about diamonds in the rough?

          Note I still dislike your mention of stats and accolades, but it's an interesting discussion. I think Kidd played REALLY WELL next to Dirk. What about Tyson Chandler? He is a role player (a great one at what he does,) and he thrived.


          By Marc D'Amico | @Marc_DAmico Celtics.com April 11, 2013 BOSTON – Rajon Rondo has spoken publicly for the first time since tearing his right anter...



          But yea you're right Rondo is a bad fit, but why talk about bad fit guys. It's like holding it against someone cuz they couldn't play next to Bron cuz they don't have range. All those guys who were BALLIN when they won in 2011 benefited from Dirk.


          Odom was washed at 32. People get washed at diff times. He was mentally checked out of the NBA. Not trying to win anymore.


          Collison been mediocre, haha. He's not someone to be like ohhh yeahh, bring him in and make a difference. None of these guys are. Tyson is and he did. Jason Kidd is and he did. Jet also benefited, a lot, but Jet also has huge balls and stepped up big. They don't win w/ o him.



          Dirk isn't Bron. Giannis too young and this era is too fonky for me to put Giannis up there like he's a top 10-15 player of all time yet. Dirk is deep in the record books. Let's get Giannis past 15k pts first ey?



          And real talk if you are asking me if I take Dirk or Giannis in the playoffs good team v good team, there's a good argument for either side, but I think Dirk has the advantage because he can shoot.



          Seems like you dislike Dirk, there is a difference between guys like Dirk and guys like Giannis, to me. Even tho Giannis will have the greater overall impact, when you need a bucket, which is what Dirks' role ultimately was in close games, vs good teams, Dirk I think would get it more often.



          -Smak

          Comment

          • killakobe81
            Rookie
            • Oct 2011
            • 7

            #50
            Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

            Originally posted by howardphillips214
            I commented on a video on YouTube calling Dirk the greatest international player of all time and got in an argument about this today. I've also been hearing how Steph "changed the game" a lot after his most recent title. Speaking from a 2K standpoint I definitely noticed a shift in gameplay after Steph's MVP season. But I am convinced Steph doesn't have the career he's had if it weren't for Dirk. The percentages of his career look fantastic as this was the FIRST year in his entire career he finished under 40% from distance for a regular season. Cap that with his 4th title and Finals MVP and every pundit and talking head has been debating Steph as a top 10 player.

            But I'll even take it a step further. I truly believe Dirk has been the most INFLUENTIAL player in the entire NBA.

            Most of Reggie and Ray Allen's careers never had the spacing Steph does now. While the Warriors took things a step further and making the 5-out offense a viable option, the league has really only been playing 4-1 sets since Dirk got drafted and started winning 50 games a year for over a decade. The Spurs are the only team that had a longer streak of making the playoffs but the Mavs never had the roster continuity of the Spurs and Duncan had much better coaching and a much better supporting cast than Dirk.

            The 2 most unguardable shots in NBA history are the Skyhook and Dirks fadeaway midrange turnaround jumper, and not in that order.

            The fact that Dirk is top 6 all time in scoring, an MVP, Finals MVP and NBA champion being the LONE all-star on the roster (1 of 7 times that happened) and beating the BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE at that time with 2 other MULTIPLE time All-stars is so frustratingly over-looked.

            Dirk "changed the game" more than anyone in the history of the NBA IMO. Jordan made the league the most popular it's ever been. But his greatest achievement was OFF the court in how he revolutionized how athletes could get paid with endorsements in signing his Nike deal. The money he's made off merchandise VS his money he made while playing isn't even close. Lebron being a billionaire while still being an active player is remarkable. But there's not a SINGLE accomplishment on or off the court that Kobe and Jordan didn't make possible for him.

            Dirk was COMPLETELY unknown when he got drafted and was thought of as a bust after his rookie season. The journey he took has never been duplicated and there's never been anyone CLOSE to his skill set since. The most comparable player since Dirk is maybe Kevin Durant and that's strictly due to his size, not his game. Catch and shoot, post game, and the fact he was NEVER as athletic as any of the members of the top 10 in scorers should not be forgotten. MULTIPLE paycuts and 21 years with the same franchise (to his own detriment I'll admit, especially after the 2011 season) and only Kobe can say 20 but he took almost 2 years off and was never the same after his Achilles injury.

            Dirk COULD have retired 2 years earlier but was STILL efficient in his final season as I'm SURE he could still play spotty minutes for any team in the league RIGHT NOW.

            If he never had to run the court or play defense, you could EASILY count on Dirk for 10-12 points a game till he was 50 if all he has to do was catch and shoot.

            Steph and his showboating will get all the headlines. Jordan has his rings and his dunks. Kobe was mini-Jordan. Lebron is the most TALENTED player we've ever seen but has woefully underperformed EVEN with his super teams.

            Dirk went about his business for 21 years and never had bad interviews. Was a consummate professional. Rewarded loyalty regardless of how it worked out for himself. "Changed the game" doesn't even cut it IMO. There's never been anyone like him and I don't believe we'll ever see it again. Luka has the POTENTIAL to surpass Dirk as the greatest international player and maybe already has. But unless he wins multiple championships and never leaves and retires in Dallas he might not even be the greatest MAVERICK.

            I live in DFW I admired Dirk and I love Luka. Maybe one day Luka will be the greatest Mav but fir now it’s Dirk and Hakeem is better than both. Remember defense matters and Hakeem smokes both on that end.


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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