Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

[jewelz1132]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

I am the only one that noticed in 2K8 it was REAL hard to make shots that you set up for your shooter to get wide open?

[younggrease]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

This proves we need a Sim Lobby. If you play both ends of the floor and take over thirteen threes in that short of a span, your legs get too tired to make long jumpers. Every once in a while, a player will ride an adrenal high and escapes fatigue for a longer than normal time, but for most guys taking a lot of long jumpers is very fatiguing in a real game.

players dont get tired taking jumpers...might get tired creating them but it takes way more then jumpers to make someone tired. Top players sometimes make 1000 jumpers a day and a lot of those 3s. I dont know where you got that shooting jumpers gets you tired. Funny thing is then you also just assume they play both ends..

A lot of time people who say they play sim dont know what it means. Sim isnt passing up open lanes because you already scored so many points in the paint.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

This thread is confusing.

You got one side saying people saying folks that play "Sim" suck at the game.

You got another side making up stats to prove their point.

You got another side saying it's not cheese if they do such and such.

[JasonC1363]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

lol really jumping in a specific motion constantly doesnt get you tired? do you have any idea how high a player elevates for a jumpshot?

i dont even like kobe but hes the perfect example...look at the elvation on his shot... you really think that stuff doesnt affect fatigue lmao...

dude just because you train to have endurance doesnt mean those things dont tire you out. thats like saying that nba players dont get tired of from running because they run miles everyday. regardless of how much you train all activity you do on the basketball court affects your fatigue. just try shooting jumpshots for 48 minutes with maximum elevation and see if you wont get tired

i agree with you about people who say they play sim not knowing what it means. nowadays sim=playing basketball like an rpg and ****. its for the geeks. for a long time now i just say i play REAL basketball **** sim man those guys dont know what their talking about

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

Why do guys that play "Sim" gotta be geeks and don't know what they're talking about?

[JasonC1363]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

Why do guys that play "Sim" gotta be geeks and don't know what they're talking about?

that all depends on your definition of Sim...

if by Sim your referring to guys that make rules like waiting for the defense to setup and ONLY shooting jumpshots all game long then the fact is they are geeks who probably never played a real game of basketball before.

if by sim your referring to someone who actually SIMULATES the REAL game of basketball as it is played in the NBA then of course its not a situation where they dont know what their talking about. thats how the game should be played

[made in eu]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

2 are the reasons "cheesing" occurs in sport video games:
1)the game isnt a real sim so it allows players to "cheese"
2)one of the players doesnt know how to properly play the game/sport so he allows the other player to "cheese"

[BOSsTOwN]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

There are some people that wish to play the game like a real NBA game. They have a right to request that, and desire that.

The word cheese is irrelevant.

Some people want to play as they do in the NBA. I'm one of these people. If you play me in some other fashion, I won't play you again.

Don't get upset that people don't enjoy playing against you. Just move on.

i think that it is BS to exect someone to play the game and mimic exactly what the team they are playing with does in real life. youre controlling the team so youre gonna make em play the way you want them to. If im playing with Detroit im playing inside out ball by first attacking the paint with Sheed. im not jacking threes using him like a small forward b/c thats how he plays in real life most times.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

I agree that house rules can be over the top. If you have to make rules, you shouldn't play that person. Your friend should have already known how you get down. Some people simply put replicating the NBA above winning. Its more about love of the sport, than love of playing a videogame. There is no right or wrong, just similar or disimilar tastes. Arenas wouldn't jack 50+ treys in a game reguardless of D, and in a 5 min game, thats exactly what you did. As a matter of fact if he tried, the opposing coach would TELL his guys to give him that shot, and the Wiz would get blown out. Your exploit was based on a shorter game, and lack of realistic fatigue. Cheese usually equates to lazy shortcuts. Running real sets, going to the right guys, generating realistic, flowing offense...manipulating the isomotion and shot stick to perfection takes way more skill than exploiting whatever perceived weakness you find in somebody's strategy. Most sim dudes lose because they are handicapping themselves for the sake of realism. When I use my Cavs for example, Ben Wallace will get a few shots around the rim. That may be terrible videogame strategy, but Big Ben gets a few shots up a game in real life. If shooting with Big ben a couple times gets me a loss, so be it. That doesn't mean I suck, that means I love the sport and the team more than I love a meanigless win% that resets every month. Pretty simple.

All that said, theres noting wrong with the way you play. You are in the VAST majority. Your friend should just stick to playing guys like us. Many guys on here can testify that there is nothing more fun, and yes *competitive* than a good battle between sim guys...being able to enjoy your opponents offense as much as your own. I'd bet not many of your opponenst can say that. They may respect your tenacity, but I'd bet no one gives you any props on your "AI". I've had some amazing games with some of the dudes on here...games that have looked and felt exactly what you see on TV, from begining to end.

[Hangtime84]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

It's a video game some thing will be unrealistic and entertaining that's why quarters in video games are usually only 5mins because programmers know there is usually a lot of fast pace running down the court style of play.

Although developers try to make the game as real as possible they know that' can't be entirely true. They have to create a fun for the casual gamer.

The idea of playing complete sim is fine, but I don't feel you should diss the players who don't play completely to those rules. IMO a real gamer at should be able to play the fast pace run-n-gun style and be able to play the slow pace sim style. There will be times a player has to score in half court sets.

I have much harder time playing players that are two dimensional than play ones that aren't.

[mutumbo888]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

I agree with the idea that people would adjust to the game. If excessive turbo caused star player fatigue, people would stop using it. If excessive swiping caused fouls, people would stop doing it. If play in the paint was more realistic, people would explore more natural basketball opportunities.

If you give people a game where they can dunk, jack 3s and swipe at the ball without penalty, guess what they are giong to do?

preeeecisely. there's always gonna be cheesers in the game because, the bottom line is, everyone or most everyone will do anything to WIN. there are kids and casual gamers playing, so I can't really blame the cheeser. cheesing and realism falls on the responsibility of the game developer. all I ask is for a nba sim, is to be a nba sim -so if something isn't rewarded in real bball/nba, then it should not be rewarded in the game. simple fundamental. so contested layups over 2-3 ppl being a 'good' shot, like the patch created in nba 2k8, shouldn't exist because it wouldn't be rewarded in real bball. I think if you got 1. rewarding sim play 2. good game balance (inside and outside shots) and flow 3. realistic defensive tactics (that means no FC trap all game long, but mostly man to man) to counter the offense --- then you got the fundamentals of a good nba sim.

I don't really mind if someone jacks up 30 threes against me. it's up to him if wants to play that way. It would be on me to recognize his tendencies and adjust my game to play good D. what I would mind is if I kept contesting the shots and his shots kept going in - which would be on the game developer for rewarding unrealism and not having the tools in place to counter the cheese. the thing is, no one usually complains about cheese unless the cheese is causing them to lose. so if 1. the game devloper gave you the tools and realism to counter the 3jacking cheese 2. the player recognizes the 'cheese' of jacking up 30 shots 3. and the result was me winning due to my own realistic strategies. then I can't complain. whats bothersome is losing to cheesers who use unrealistic tactics, but the tactics are rewarded.

the best game is one that forces you to play sim - not because you WANT to, or becaus some sim-league has rules, but because you'd HAVE to if you wanted to win. that's how it is in real bball, should be the same in videogame bball. I thought Nba2K8 before the first patch captured real ball as perfect as we've ever seen (besides the DT glitch). it was fun to watch cheesers attack the rim over and over and over and shoot layups, no matter who was contesting it, and then get pissed because it wasn't an easy 2 every time. It made team play and passing that more important, when you couldn't depend on the money layup/dunk/pip with Kobe all the time.

so with that being said, the way I'd change nba 2k8 is

1. return it to Nba2k8 out of the box settings pre-patch (besides control upgrades & removing the DT glitch)

2. add excessive fatigue for those who want to full court trap all game long

3. have a limit to how many times you can switch your defensive sets in one possession, or at least there should be a delay when you switch between FC trap to HC trap to 2-3 zone, all depending how the Off. is playing. some may think this isn't cheap, but it's totally cheap. for one, it's not YOU being in the right position, etc, all you are doing is hitting a button at the appropriate time relative to where the Off is on the court. so if I drive to the hoop and am under the hoop and my opponent calls 2-3 zone to combat that - thats not defense! that's hitting a button and hoping the CPU will do the work. this type of quick defensive set switching is not realistic because the transition would never work as fast as it is depicted in the videogame.

4. return collision detection and layup success % back to pre-patch settings. defense was fun before the patch because you actually could stay in front of your man and contesting a shot mattered.

but ya, cheesers will always be around, so it's the job of the game developer to limit the opportunities for cheese and to try to mimic the real nba if they are going to call it a nba sim. also I think more human vs human testing would help. and also I would exercise more patience when making a significant patch that will change the fundamentals of the gameplay - patience to decipher: 1. whether a gameplay complaint is actually valid 2. is the complaint really due to noobs/cheesers being upset over not being able to use cheesy tactics? or 3. is it the fact that the game is new and that there will be an adjusting/learning curve period?

this went on kinda long, don't know if you read all that ha -

[Jay-Hova]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

Agreed



Playing tight doesnt work on certain players.
This is where I have a disconnect who is going to leave a star player with a good shot open 23 times in a 5 minn qtr game? Even if all you do is camp the center the CPU on rookie should be able to prevent this. You clearly milked one of the games flaws. With no other name to call it people call it cheese. I have seen too many players with high ratings bury threes in peoples face so I know this is an issue.

Please, playing tight works on all shooters. Especially Gilbert as he has a rating of 80 for his 3 point shot. Maybe if he had a 99 it would be a different story.

I'd throw 2k9 in the garbage if players are penalized for bricking good looks.

[Jay-Hova]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

2 are the reasons "cheesing" occurs in sport video games:
1)the game isnt a real sim so it allows players to "cheese"
2)one of the players doesnt know how to properly play the game/sport so he allows the other player to "cheese"

Come on, folks are bending the definition of the term cheese. There hasn't been any cheese in a basketball game for some time now as there are no game killers to exploit.

[DC]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

So you don't think there was any cheese in 2K8?

[Jay-Hova]

Re: Is Cheesing an Excuse for Sucking?

it goes both ways... people who suck at the game either resort to cheesing or resort to playing sim with a bunch of ridiculous rules. i know leagues where they tell u that you can only score in the paint on fastbreaks and putbacks. some guys play the game strictly shooting jumpshots. ive even seen leagues that tell you you have to wait for the other team to get back on defense before u can start your offense.

dumb rules like that are excuses for people who suck at the game and others resort to exploits and cheese.

i beleive that the game should be played exactly how its done in real life. run the offense that the team is geared to run and play defense as good as you can period. if you have no malicious intentions and just play the game for fun instead of worrying so much about cheesing or being sim then all is fair. people get so caught up in the bull**** cheese/sim mentality that they dont even enjoy the game.

In real life, teams attempt to exploit holes in their opponent's defense. They don't run play sets for nothing. It's not for show. They have to work hard for their shots because the defense is making it hard for them.

That's exactly how it is in NBA 2k8. If you prevent whatever players are doing or at least make it more difficult for them, they're going to be a lot more patient with their game.

I've played against several aggressive players online and I've learned how to incorporate things in my game that makes me competitive regardless of who I'm playing.

If you want to play a half court game against your opponent, you need to force it upon your opponent. Read what his tendencies are and take advantage of that. It's just like real competition.

"Cheesers" try to force their opponent to play their style of ball and that can be shut down if you play the total opposite just as good as him.

Whoever controls the tempo of the game will ultimately win the game. If you're leaving players open on the perimeter, then you're not contributing to your success on that.

I'm not really buying the whole "Sim vs. Cheese" thing when it comes to NBA 2k, because if both players are the best at their style of play, the game will end up looking similar to real basketball.

I'm speaking of those low scoring, tightly contested games that you would expect in a 20 minute game.