One concern I do have about simulation mode...

[Beluba]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Beluba - One thing that might be nice is to add the option of displaying the "rating" of a shot as it leaves your hand - like maybe a number pops up in the top corner which displays how "good" of a shot it was on a scale of 1 - 10...meaning quality of shot selection. if you take a wide open shot with a good shooter, that would be a 10 rated shot. if you drive into the paint and try to float it over a center, that would be a 3 rated shot ( but if you're using a player that is good at this type of shot, it might go up to a 4 or 5)...you get my drift. this type of number display would really give the user a direct idea of how the game is defining good shots and bad shots based on factors like the shooter's abilities and the proximity of defenders.

lol. you know i can't divulge how our shot heuristic works.

but it's funny that you mention displaying the shot quality. that was basically the goal of the cell phone bars in the player indicator that we introduced way back in 2K7 or whatever year. but during 2K11 development, one of our engineers put in a tool that basically prints out the actual shot % onscreen for each shot taken in game and I can't play without it now. much more useful than the cell phone bars IMO. we talked about making the tool into a feature but didn't have time to implement anything. I'll try to come up with a way to incorporate it next year though. I think it's a great teaching tool for users who might not understand good vs. poor shot selection.

[23]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

I like that idea as long as it works properly, sounds like a great coach for bball IQ and watching what you do.

[Jano]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Yes, this is what I was trying to explain. In prior 2K's, shot %'s were flatter across the board. What I mean by that is the impact of different variables: good shot timing, openness, player ratings, matchups, etc. were all factored into the shot success heuristic which then generated your final shot %. The problem is that the weight of certain factors were balanced in such a way that it effectively took the user out of the equation to some degree.

We overhauled the system to ensure that the skill of the user and the execution of the shot were the primary factors in determining the outcome -- while still taking into account all of the subtle "sim" things that make our shot % algorithm so robust. So our shot %'s moved away from being flat to having more highs and lows based on the user's performance. The end result is a game in which you feel much more rewarded for working the ball and getting high quality shots, as well as executing the shot mechanic itself.

This sounds great! This game is getting me more and more excited each day Oct can't come soon enough.

[Goffs]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

lol. you know i can't divulge how our shot heuristic works.

but it's funny that you mention displaying the shot quality. that was basically the goal of the cell phone bars in the player indicator that we introduced way back in 2K7 or whatever year. but during 2K11 development, one of our engineers put in a tool that basically prints out the actual shot % onscreen for each shot taken in game and I can't play without it now. much more useful than the cell phone bars IMO. we talked about making the tool into a feature but didn't have time to implement anything. I'll try to come up with a way to incorporate it next year though. I think it's a great teaching tool for users who might not understand good vs. poor shot selection.

just as long you give us the option to turn it off...i just dont like seeing any indicators on screen...

speaking of indicators, in the vids that were shown will that big shot clock showing up on screen optional?

[jfsolo]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

lol. you know i can't divulge how our shot heuristic works.

but it's funny that you mention displaying the shot quality. that was basically the goal of the cell phone bars in the player indicator that we introduced way back in 2K7 or whatever year. but during 2K11 development, one of our engineers put in a tool that basically prints out the actual shot % onscreen for each shot taken in game and I can't play without it now. much more useful than the cell phone bars IMO. we talked about making the tool into a feature but didn't have time to implement anything. I'll try to come up with a way to incorporate it next year though. I think it's a great teaching tool for users who might not understand good vs. poor shot selection.

That on screen percentage indicator would see like an invaluable tool to more easily track and therefore tune, the efficacy each of those various shot affecting variables.

In the past, highly contested shots and other ill advised shots didn't seem to be tuned at a high enough failure rate. It would seem as if the new sim style would let you create a setting that is appropriately difficult right out of the box.

[cjocan]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

lol. you know i can't divulge how our shot heuristic works.

but it's funny that you mention displaying the shot quality. that was basically the goal of the cell phone bars in the player indicator that we introduced way back in 2K7 or whatever year. but during 2K11 development, one of our engineers put in a tool that basically prints out the actual shot % onscreen for each shot taken in game and I can't play without it now. much more useful than the cell phone bars IMO. we talked about making the tool into a feature but didn't have time to implement anything. I'll try to come up with a way to incorporate it next year though. I think it's a great teaching tool for users who might not understand good vs. poor shot selection.

Hello Beluba,

Regarding the thread hear about 'Sim' mode, I did have a quick question related to smarter CPU play for end of quarter/game and shot clock situations when the clock is under say 5 seconds for the CPU. In one of the demo videos it seems that the CPU was using Chalmers to set up for a last second play in the post to Bosh. Generally I would think in a normal game that either Wade/Lebron would/should have the ball in their hands (if not denied) and be in a clear out or pick and roll situation. Do you have something built in that factors these situations for each team based on the player rating, clutch factor etc?

I thought I read something before regarding end of game situations, but not necessarily end of quarter or situations where maybe the shot clock is running low...is this factored in the 'touches' tendency?

Thanks

[blues rocker]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

lol. you know i can't divulge how our shot heuristic works.

but it's funny that you mention displaying the shot quality. that was basically the goal of the cell phone bars in the player indicator that we introduced way back in 2K7 or whatever year. but during 2K11 development, one of our engineers put in a tool that basically prints out the actual shot % onscreen for each shot taken in game and I can't play without it now. much more useful than the cell phone bars IMO. we talked about making the tool into a feature but didn't have time to implement anything. I'll try to come up with a way to incorporate it next year though. I think it's a great teaching tool for users who might not understand good vs. poor shot selection.

this sounds awesome. even for advanced users it would be a cool feature because. I would like to see the shot quality just out of curiosity...and I could see how drastically the defense is affecting the shots.

I'm imagining this feature working similar to the grading system in My Player mode. there could be a small box at the top of the screen, and as soon as a shot is released the "shot quality" or "percentage" is displayed in the form of a number on a scale of 1-10, or 1-100, whatever scale works best.

this shot display could also work when the CPU or human opponent is shooting so you can also see how much your defense is lowering the opponent's shot success.

I'm imagining this feature could be turned on or off in the display options menu or something like that.

This would be a great way to get a direct response from the game so you can become more familiar with how the game is defining "shot quality." you could really get a good idea of how the defender is affecting your shot. Like when you shoot a closely contested shot and a low number pops up, you know that the game is recognizing that aggressive defense. and then if a defender is further away you can see how the "shot quality" is affected by different degrees of defense (from weak to aggressively contested).

[blues rocker]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

that would just add an unrealistic element to the game and would be to much of an advantage for the offensive team if they knew ahead of time that the shot was going to made but I guess it would be a nice feature in the casual game mode to help people new to the series, but more advance people know when we are taking a bad shot, they actually had something like that in draft combine after every decision you either received a positive or negative grade.

well, i was imagining the feature could be turned on and off in the display options. or maybe by default the feature is turned on in causal mode, but in sim mode you have to manually turn it on yourself if you want it.

[Crossover1]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

IDK why u guys act like missing a wide open shot with a shooter is such a bad thing. I have seen Ray Allen, Jason Kapono, Kyle Korver, and other shooters brick wide open shots countless times. Last time I check, with the exception of Ray Allen, these guys shoot open shots 90% of the time and when they don't have it, they pass it to a teammate and look for open shots again. If they had to make wide open shots at a high frequency then these guys 3pt percentage would be even more outstanding than a .500 shooter

[poster]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

In "Sim" mode will the CPU react realistically in the help defense department to allow good ball movement to result in open shots for the human player? Or will the CPU D cover too much ground in contesting shots negating this?

I know there is alot of discussion about floor spacing, etc. but the help D and rotations by the CPU have to be realistic and not super human. In these videos, none of the human players are working the ball around to create open jump shots, so I have no idea if it is improved.

Beluba, can you comment on this, especially in comparison to the other game you worked with last year? That was one of the strengths of that game, and it would be great if this was improved in 2K11.

[rudygay]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

my main concern right now is animation.while 2k10 has cool animation for layups and dunks,i dont want like 70-80% of the animation in 2k11 to be the same as 2k10.all the layups and dunks i see in this videos i see them in 2k10!

sorry for my bad english

[Goffs]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

my main concern right now is animation.while 2k10 has cool animation for layups and dunks,i dont want like 70-80% of the animation in 2k11 to be the same as 2k10.all the layups and dunks i see in this videos i see them in 2k10!

sorry for my bad english

huh? what are you looking for in a layup? thats pretty basic...unless you do some kind of cartwheel before going up a layup i see nothing wrong with it...

this goes for dunks as well....

[Da_Czar]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

excellent. this shot algorithm in 2k11 sounds like the ideal one - it's always best when success is more reliant on getting OPEN shots. that is how I have always thought video game basketball should work, because it means the user can really control their own success by getting good shots, as opposed to success being more arbitrary or "stats-based" (scripted).

I have always liked that idea that you could pick a crappy team and still beat a good team by getting good shots. In certain other basketball games, success has seemed solely dependent on picking the most stacked roster and then whoever had the highest rated shooters would win. I'm really dying to play a game where you can shut down the other team and hold them to 30-35 percent shooting by playing great defense...or blow out the other team by getting open shots (not just by driving and dunking every time).



the way I envision the ideal basketball game is like this: let's use an example of a good outside shooter with a 90 long range shot rating.

if a shooter has a 90 long range shot rating, he should make 9 out of 10 WIDE open shots - this is what I define as a "high quality shot"...there are no defenders within 4 feet of him.

as the defender moves within 3 feet of the shooter, his success rate should drop as the defender gets within 3-4 feet, and then it shoud drop even more depending on how aggressively the shot is contested.

if the defender is standing in front of him, at about 3-4 feet away and the defender does not put his hand up to contest, the shooter should make 8 out of 10 (taking into account that the defender is not very close, and he's not contesting the shot either).

if the defender is about 3-4 feet away, but this time he jumps to contest the shot, the shooter should now only make 5 out of 10 (keep in mind the defender is still somewhat far away from him at this point, even though he did jump to contest).

if the defender moves to within 1 foot of the shooter but does not put his arm up to contest, the shooter should now make 3 out of 10 - this is what I define as a "poor shot" (the defender is not contesting, but he is standing directly in front of him and is in close proximity, so this should drop the shot success because the defender is now "invading" the shooter's space and making him uncomfortable).

if the shooter remains at 1 foot away BUT THIS TIME he puts his arm up to contest, the shooter should now only make 1 out of 10. this is "closely contested" and this is what i define as a "very poor shot" - defender is within 1 foot and is also contesting. (this is the key - if a shot is "closely contested," the shot success should drop drastically to almost nothing...even on good shooters - thus rewarding good defense). so, even though we're talking about a great shooter, he should still only make 1 out of 10 closely contested shots.

so in summary, when using a good shooter: wide open shots should go in almost every time (9 out of 10), and "closely contested" shots should almost never go in (only 1 out of 10).

hopefully 2k11 will work something like this.

I guess all of this really depends one how you (2k devs) define a "high quality shot", a "poor shot", and a "very poor shot." I gave you my definitions above, what are yours?

In theory I like what your saying but I think your putting too much credit on open shots being made. Even good shooters miss open shot's. Again In theory I agree with you.

2k's shot heuristics are incredible for what they take into account and with the adjustments Beluba told you about it definitely rewards you for getting open shots IF you can get them.

[Gosens6]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

This whole thread has me worried. I surely hope that 9 out of 10 wide open shots aren't always drained. That doesn't happen in real life and that shouldn't happen in SIM mode in 2K11.

Some of you are acting like shooters make 9 out of 10 shots all the time. Yeah if they catch fire but even then it's rare. Guys miss wide open shots all the time in the NBA, which is why the FG% are where they are. If wide open shots were always made you would see shooting %'s in the 60's and 70's at a consistent level and everyone here knows that's not the case.

I implore 2K not to make 2K11 like 2K10 was at release last year where the CPU and you shot near 80% from the field for the entire game just because shots were somewhat open. Hell, they were even contested most of the time.

Players miss shots, it's a part of the game, no one is perfect, not even wide open. If I play the demo and I can drain every open jumper, 3 pointer on sim mode, i'll be very unhappy.

[Da_Czar]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

This whole thread has me worried. I surely hope that 9 out of 10 wide open shots aren't always drained. That doesn't happen in real life and that shouldn't happen in SIM mode in 2K11.

Some of you are acting like shooters make 9 out of 10 shots all the time. Yeah if they catch fire but even then it's rare. Guys miss wide open shots all the time in the NBA, which is why the FG% are where they are. If wide open shots were always made you would see shooting %'s in the 60's and 70's at a consistent level and everyone here knows that's not the case.

I implore 2K not to make 2K11 like 2K10 was at release last year where the CPU and you shot near 80% from the field for the entire game just because shots were somewhat open. Hell, they were even contested most of the time.

Players miss shots, it's a part of the game, no one is perfect, not even wide open. If I play the demo and I can drain every open jumper, 3 pointer on sim mode, i'll be very unhappy.

It shouldn't worry you too much. That was Blues who would like to have 90 percent of open shots go in the heuristic system he described. Mike just said they reworked some things so that user execution is a bigger factor. And from what I have seen depending on you level your playing (if against the cpu) your not going to have a huge selection of open shots anyway.