Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

[The Fight]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

My only 2 points of contention are this:

Regarding the Suns or any bad team leading the division. If in my association I am using a slider set that allows me to be in 1st place with the Wizards than it is a bad slider set. A good slider set will have teams playing to their level of play. You may disagree with this, but if I can easily win with a lottery team think of how well I may do with the Lakers. A want a game where if I am playing as a bad team then every game should be a challenge. If you are able to win consistently with a team that is not good you should either adjust difficulty or alter sliders. You are right. You play to win the game. But it is how you go about winning that is key. You may indulge yourself and think that being able to win with the Knicks means you could be a good basketball coach; that is foolishness. If that is what you want than play on coach mode.

For the mirror matches I once again disagree. If I can easily beat the AI Wizards with using the Wizards then something is wrong. This is more of a fundamental disagreement. I cannot understand how one can say it is acceptable to be able to dominate consistently in a mirror match. Don't kid yourself into talking about coaching. Videogames are no where near that level of complexity yet. You don't want to compensate for the change in sliders? How is that different than compensating for lower quality players in real life?

Don't misunderstand me. If you are doing well with a lottery team, it could be that you are actually using them to their maximum potential. Or you are just better than you opponents for a stretch. I maintain, I just don't see the point in changing the sliders If you are successful with a "bad" team. To me, it just seems like a weak argument, especially when you haven't actually seen how I play.

Now, I said before in this thread that condescending comments normally warrant some kind of negative response from me. However, I'm trying to play nice since Pared address me about this. Telling me that I'm "indulginng myself" by thinking that winning with the Knicks means that I think I would be a good coach is unnecessary. I'll take the high road and leave it at that.

Moving on.

"For the mirror matches I once again disagree. If I can easily beat the AI Wizards with using the Wizards then something is wrong. This is more of a fundamental disagreement. I cannot understand how one can say it is acceptable to be able to dominate consistently in a mirror match. Don't kid yourself into talking about coaching. Videogames are no where near that level of complexity yet. You don't want to compensate for the change in sliders? How is that different than compensating for lower quality players in real life?"

Were the Nuggets the same team when they were coached by George Karl and AD? No. Some of that is emotional, some of that is the coach. I don't know how you play your game. I've told you that I have yet to beat my VIP when I'm trailing by 15+. That was using different teams, I tried going ATL vs ATL tonight and I had a hard time for a while and then in the fourth, the computer/my vip made a switch and put their Josh Smith on my Al Horford (amongst other switches) on D. I won by 6 but Horford was shut down in the last 3 minutes of the game. The CPU does make adjustments and tries to exploit your weakness, especially when it crutch time. I change the way I play depending on a number of factors, I don't see how you don't do that when you play HOF.

[The Fight]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=957VP...layer_embedded

Lets not confuse level of difficulty with completely unrealistic blocking. Sliders fix alot of this bs. A faster player, should, at will, be able to run around a slower player. Dont confuse this with difficulty. I guess this thread is based on closed mindedness so it doesn't really matter what happens in the NBA.

Man, what?

Really, this thread, that has tips that stems from fundamental basketball and play calling mind you, is based on closed mindedness? Really?

You guys win. I'm just about done here. It doesn't matter that I address this specifically. I'm just wrong by default. You're right...

[2kfanatic]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

To all those who use sliders: Can anyone give me a slider set that gives the same level of difficulty of hall of fame that also removes the "unrealistic" aspects in the gameplay (should be at hall of fame too)?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

Don't misunderstand me. If you are doing well with a lottery team, it could be that you are actually using them to their maximum potential. Or you are just better than you opponents for a stretch. I maintain, I just don't see the point in changing the sliders If you are successful with a "bad" team. To me, it just seems like a weak argument, especially when you haven't actually seen how I play.

Now, I said before in this thread that condescending comments normally warrant some kind of negative response from me. However, I'm trying to play nice since Pared address me about this. Telling me that I'm "indulginng myself" by thinking that winning with the Knicks means that I think I would be a good coach is unnecessary. I'll take the high road and leave it at that.

Moving on.

"For the mirror matches I once again disagree. If I can easily beat the AI Wizards with using the Wizards then something is wrong. This is more of a fundamental disagreement. I cannot understand how one can say it is acceptable to be able to dominate consistently in a mirror match. Don't kid yourself into talking about coaching. Videogames are no where near that level of complexity yet. You don't want to compensate for the change in sliders? How is that different than compensating for lower quality players in real life?"

Were the Nuggets the same team when they were coached by George Karl and AD? No. Some of that is emotional, some of that is the coach. I don't know how you play your game. I've told you that I have yet to beat my VIP when I'm trailing by 15+. That was using different teams, I tried going ATL vs ATL tonight and I had a hard time for a while and then in the fourth, the computer/my vip made a switch and put their Josh Smith on my Al Horford (amongst other switches) on D. I won by 6 but Horford was shut down in the last 3 minutes of the game. The CPU does make adjustments and tries to exploit your weakness, especially when it crutch time. I change the way I play depending on a number of factors, I don't see how you don't do that when you play HOF.

The reason for our disagreement when it comes to bad teams is due to what we want out of the game. I do not completely know how or why you play, but I get the most enjoyment out of association mode and the GM aspects such as building a team. That is why it is imperative to me that bad teams play bad. We have been through this before. It is a difference in our style of play. You want to win championships, I want to build championship winning teams. I guess we will leave it at that.

And when I initially brought up the mirror matches here is what I said: The only difference should be who better takes advantages of mismatches and strategy. So I would alter sliders to cancel out things such as stick skill. Example: My John Wall is getting to the rim easier than AI's John Wall. I should correct that. Bolded parts = coaching. However even with those there should not be that drastic of a difference. If either me or the AI utilize our players differently that is one thing, but if we both try to create open midrange J's for Young and Arenas than those two should have similar numbers FG% wise. That is what I use mirror matches for. To make sure that if the AI and I try to do the same thing (which is what I aim for in these matches), then we should reasonably expect the same results. I don't actually try to win those games; they are akin to preseason games.

With regards to coaching. I do not know how to articulate in a concise manner, so I may ramble a bit. Yes, in real life coaching makes a huge difference for teams, even if the coaches share the same philosophies. The game currently is not advanced enough to duplicate that. You are using real life examples of coaching changes as being analogous to AI teams vs. teams controlled by you. I don't know how to approach that without appearing condescending. Games are just not there yet. Of course the AI may adjust. But there bag of tricks is much more limited than a real life coach, and further our strategical options are still limited. The game is not quite deep enough to completely account for coaching. But again, this largely stems from our same disagreement regarding playing with lottery teams. So no use in continuing this line of discussion.

Now for our larger disagreement on sliders in general, I think that is due to our priorities. I want my games to feel like a real NBA game and I need the stats to reflect that. That for me takes precedence over all else. But you on the other hand, I believe what is most important to you is maintaining the chess match aspect of basketball.

[The Fight]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

The reason for our disagreement when it comes to bad teams is due to what we want out of the game. I do not completely know how or why you play, but I get the most enjoyment out of association mode and the GM aspects such as building a team. That is why it is imperative to me that bad teams play bad. We have been through this before. It is a difference in our style of play. You want to win championships, I want to build championship winning teams. I guess we will leave it at that.

And when I initially brought up the mirror matches here is what I said: The only difference should be who better takes advantages of mismatches and strategy. So I would alter sliders to cancel out things such as stick skill. Example: My John Wall is getting to the rim easier than AI's John Wall. I should correct that. Bolded parts = coaching. However even with those there should not be that drastic of a difference. If either me or the AI utilize our players differently that is one thing, but if we both try to create open midrange J's for Young and Arenas than those two should have similar numbers FG% wise. That is what I use mirror matches for. To make sure that if the AI and I try to do the same thing (which is what I aim for in these matches), then we should reasonably expect the same results. I don't actually try to win those games; they are akin to preseason games.

With regards to coaching. I do not know how to articulate in a concise manner, so I may ramble a bit. Yes, in real life coaching makes a huge difference for teams, even if the coaches share the same philosophies. The game currently is not advanced enough to duplicate that. You are using real life examples of coaching changes as being analogous to AI teams vs. teams controlled by you. I don't know how to approach that without appearing condescending. Games are just not there yet. Of course the AI may adjust. But there bag of tricks is much more limited than a real life coach, and further our strategical options are still limited. The game is not quite deep enough to completely account for coaching. But again, this largely stems from our same disagreement regarding playing with lottery teams. So no use in continuing this line of discussion.

Now for our larger disagreement on sliders in general, I think that is due to our priorities. I want my games to feel like a real NBA game and I need the stats to reflect that. That for me takes precedence over all else. But you on the other hand, I believe what is most important to you is maintaining the chess match aspect of basketball.

Building a championship winning teams without actually executing the goal of winning championships feels hollow to me. Winning is indeed everything to me, and the way I manage a team will cater to that (like having to get rid of Bibby because he brought the entire team down with his minutes issue. I would figure real life Bibby would accept the lesser role. *just my assumption). I forced myself to use Jordan Crawford and Teague because I knew it would pay it's own dividends in year 2 (and after playing with Jordan, I realized he's a lot better than his OVR would lead you to believe).

In my mirror match, I didn't normally guard people with their doppelganger. Joe Johnson and Horford (eventually) were the exception. The CPU won't really play people out off positional often (to your point of coaching sophistication) but they will switch defensively (more to my point). Joe Johnson hurt me from the perimeter and from the post, as he should have (thinking that Joe Johnson's O > his D). Idyllically, if I used my Joe Johnson in the same way that the CPU used his, we would have had similar shooting percentages. However, that rarely happens. The CPU's Joe Johnson was in a better rhythm than mine was (so much so that I ended up putting Josh Smith on him) and shot better percentage-wise, but mine had more points (actually only one more point). I fully see your point, but in my experience practicing it, I haven't seen anyone (aside from Horford's garbage points) who shot identical to their counterpart.

In terms of the first section of the coaching debate, I don't mean to say that CPU Coaching AI is ~ the same as real life. If any thing, it's a separate entity. The three coaches (real life, human and CPU) will all coach the same team differently. Also, I appreciate your constraint and honesty in that paragraph. I guess we both need to turn it down a bit.

In terms of your last paragraph, can't argue that even if I tried. I feel that the chess games that coaches play in the NBA yields different (albeit for some teams, similar) results every night. The Heat wont beat every championship contending team by 10 or less every time they win (unless they play the Magic 82 games in a row. *I hate both teams, I hope the NBA invents a way for them to both lose when they play each other*). They have to come up with different ways to win and I just don't feel that I get that when I play with people's sliders. I feel like runs have a specific end point/range to them (around the 14-17 point range) on sliders where consistency and the midrange game are nerfed. I feel like defenders get lost way too easy on plays with multiple screens and recover way too late when on the ball D is slashed. That forces a certain type of offense and by proxy, only a certain frame for box scores if I play the way I normally do. I know and have heard your gripes and reasons for playing with modified sliders, I didn't really talk about my reasons for not playing with specific sliders yet.

Ultimately agree to disagree?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

Building a championship winning teams without actually executing the goal of winning championships feels hollow to me. Winning is indeed everything to me, and the way I manage a team will cater to that (like having to get rid of Bibby because he brought the entire team down with his minutes issue. I would figure real life Bibby would accept the lesser role. *just my assumption). I forced myself to use Jordan Crawford and Teague because I knew it would pay it's own dividends in year 2 (and after playing with Jordan, I realized he's a lot better than his OVR would lead you to believe).

In my mirror match, I didn't normally guard people with their doppelganger. Joe Johnson and Horford (eventually) were the exception. The CPU won't really play people out off positional often (to your point of coaching sophistication) but they will switch defensively (more to my point). Joe Johnson hurt me from the perimeter and from the post, as he should have (thinking that Joe Johnson's O > his D). Idyllically, if I used my Joe Johnson in the same way that the CPU used his, we would have had similar shooting percentages. However, that rarely happens. The CPU's Joe Johnson was in a better rhythm than mine was (so much so that I ended up putting Josh Smith on him) and shot better percentage-wise, but mine had more points (actually only one more point). I fully see your point, but in my experience practicing it, I haven't seen anyone (aside from Horford's garbage points) who shot identical to their counterpart.

In terms of the first section of the coaching debate, I don't mean to say that CPU Coaching AI is ~ the same as real life. If any thing, it's a separate entity. The three coaches (real life, human and CPU) will all coach the same team differently. Also, I appreciate your constraint and honesty in that paragraph. I guess we both need to turn it down a bit.

In terms of your last paragraph, can't argue that even if I tried. I feel that the chess games that coaches play in the NBA yields different (albeit for some teams, similar) results every night. The Heat wont beat every championship contending team by 10 or less every time they win (unless they play the Magic 82 games in a row. *I hate both teams, I hope the NBA invents a way for them to both lose when they play each other*). They have to come up with different ways to win and I just don't feel that I get that when I play with people's sliders. I feel like runs have a specific end point/range to them (around the 14-17 point range) on sliders where consistency and the midrange game are nerfed. I feel like defenders get lost way too easy on plays with multiple screens and recover way too late when on the ball D is slashed. That forces a certain type of offense and by proxy, only a certain frame for box scores if I play the way I normally do. I know and have heard your gripes and reasons for playing with modified sliders, I didn't really talk about my reasons for not playing with specific sliders yet.

Ultimately agree to disagree?

We can agree to disagree, although I would imagine our disagreements are much smaller than you would suspect.

To clarify, our stances on sliders are relatively similar. You are just more extreme. I agree that people may rely on sliders to make up for their weaknesses and are too quick to alter them, but I do not go as far as to say don't use sliders. They are fine for small tweaks, but too many are making drastic changes.

I do fully intend to actually win a championship, lol. I just wanna do so with a team that if were to magically form in real life (I love games ) that team could have a reasonable chance to win there too. I guess it comes down to ownership. I wanna say I won with *my* team. Winning is also everything to me, but I wanna be able to win in all aspects of the sport. Hope this makes sense, because if I go any further it will spiral into an incoherent rant.

For mirror matches don't misunderstand. I don't want or expect identical results. My goal is not a triple OT buzzer beating game, lol. I fully expect some deviation, I just keep an eye on the degree. Don't get the image of a stressed out gg in his basement making slider tweaks until both Wizard teams shoot 44% from the field. I just use this method to make sure that both sides are on a reasonably level playing field.

To your comment about coaching, I understand that completely. No need to tone it down though. It is perfectly acceptable to call each other dumb in a mature fashion so long as we present facts and points backing up that assertion. I just hate when people make arguments like "omg u r so dumb for saying that. lol at you" That is the difference between a good discussion/ debate and bickering. Nothing like verbally bitchslapping someone, lol

One other note, just because I advocate adjusting sliders does not mean I change all sliders. For things like on ball D I am firmly in the same camp as you. Use plays and learn how to get separation from the D. No arguments there. But some other sliders I feel could use some tweaking. One example if I may, I thought that with the default (er, sim) setting, stamina was too high. Not enough minutes for the bench and all my starters averaging ~38 mpg. Again, just made a slight tweak to get it down to where I had to be smarter with my minutes.

I also hate the Heat and Magic. But I wouldn't worry about them too much. I don't really think either team is built for a championship. Heat are definitely closer though. Magic rely on dunks and 3's. A good defense who can gameplan for them can stop their attack without too many problems.
The Heat are still a question mark to me. I would have to wait and see how they play when Miller comes back and if they can all be comfortable in their roles. In a finals against the Lakers I wold wager on LA winning. I don't think you can throw 3 superstars together and call it a "team" just like that.

Edit: Regarding the Suns this is the slider set I was referring to. You can see that in many categories he has given the user an advantage over the AI. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...inute-qtr.html If you can do well with a lottery team with balanced sliders, great. But don't skew them in your favor to make up for playing with a bad team.

[The Fight]

Re: Rant: Helping you out of necessity and insipid rage

We can agree to disagree, although I would imagine our disagreements are much smaller than you would suspect.

To clarify, our stances on sliders are relatively similar. You are just more extreme. I agree that people may rely on sliders to make up for their weaknesses and are too quick to alter them, but I do not go as far as to say don't use sliders. They are fine for small tweaks, but too many are making drastic changes.

I do fully intend to actually win a championship, lol. I just wanna do so with a team that if were to magically form in real life (I love games ) that team could have a reasonable chance to win there too. I guess it comes down to ownership. I wanna say I won with *my* team. Winning is also everything to me, but I wanna be able to win in all aspects of the sport. Hope this makes sense, because if I go any further it will spiral into an incoherent rant.

For mirror matches don't misunderstand. I don't want or expect identical results. My goal is not a triple OT buzzer beating game, lol. I fully expect some deviation, I just keep an eye on the degree. Don't get the image of a stressed out gg in his basement making slider tweaks until both Wizard teams shoot 44% from the field. I just use this method to make sure that both sides are on a reasonably level playing field.

To your comment about coaching, I understand that completely. No need to tone it down though. It is perfectly acceptable to call each other dumb in a mature fashion so long as we present facts and points backing up that assertion. I just hate when people make arguments like "omg u r so dumb for saying that. lol at you" That is the difference between a good discussion/ debate and bickering. Nothing like verbally bitchslapping someone, lol

One other note, just because I advocate adjusting sliders does not mean I change all sliders. For things like on ball D I am firmly in the same camp as you. Use plays and learn how to get separation from the D. No arguments there. But some other sliders I feel could use some tweaking. One example if I may, I thought that with the default (er, sim) setting, stamina was too high. Not enough minutes for the bench and all my starters averaging ~38 mpg. Again, just made a slight tweak to get it down to where I had to be smarter with my minutes.

I also hate the Heat and Magic. But I wouldn't worry about them too much. I don't really think either team is built for a championship. Heat are definitely closer though. Magic rely on dunks and 3's. A good defense who can gameplan for them can stop their attack without too many problems.
The Heat are still a question mark to me. I would have to wait and see how they play when Miller comes back and if they can all be comfortable in their roles. In a finals against the Lakers I wold wager on LA winning. I don't think you can throw 3 superstars together and call it a "team" just like that.

Edit: Regarding the Suns this is the slider set I was referring to. You can see that in many categories he has given the user an advantage over the AI. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...inute-qtr.html If you can do well with a lottery team with balanced sliders, great. But don't skew them in your favor to make up for playing with a bad team.

Verbal bitchslap? I'm shootin for Mac slaps, baby.

<embed src="http://www.ebaumsworld.com/player.swf" allowscriptaccess="always" flashvars="pageurl=http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/850117/&file=http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/video/495459/850117.flv&mediaid=850117&title=Bernie Mac Bitch Slap&tags=bernie,mac,clip,head,state,slap,rofl,fun ny,movie,scene,skit,parody&description=A great clip from the movie Head of State with Chris Rock where Bernie hops off the train and keeps his pimp hand strong.&displayheight=325&backcolor=0x0d0d0d&light oclor=0x336699&frontcolor=0xcccccc&image=http://images.ebaumsworld.com/thumbs/video/495459/850117.jpg&username=HandCannon" wmode="transparent" loop="false" menu="false" quality="high" bgcolor="#ffffff" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" height="345" width="425">

On a more serious note, who's to say what's a small tweak to people these days. On top of that, how many small tweaks does it take equal a dramatic change? Not saying that to be argumentative, just want your opinion. I say bumping on the perimeter should be in the game, some people disagree and will go as far as to change the sliders to stop it from happening (not realizing the total consequence to turning down the on the ball D slider). In the end, In my opinion, I feet it weakens people's skills on some level (minuscule to enormous). I suppose if you could select specific actions to fine tune (added to what you can already), it would go a little further the help, maybe not. I don't know what the concession would be from my POV.

Lol, I want the Knicks to shake hands with Obama too. I just don't want to wait 3 season to do it. I just kill myself, trying to get better. BTW, pared doesn't think rants are effective on this site .

Mirror matches are a pain in my a(& when playing against my VIP. Good way to show your bad habits and display what you do a little too much. Terrible when you hate to lose and you KNOW what coming down the pipe when its crunch time. Many a curse word came flying out of my mouth this evening...Do you play against your VIP at all?

Florida basketball teams suck. What more is there to say? lmao.

And those sliders make me want to meet people who play this game and show them how to properly play it.