NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

[Notorious Arab]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

I agree, they both work together. If you only base it off what you see, you're just providing an opinion. Opinions are almost always subject to bias.


This makes sense as well, and with all those in play Kobe will be far more effective than any of these parade brand guys they keep crying about. No one posted the other relevant ratings connected to shooting for these other guys....


Calm down bro. Take a breath. In a sim the only time you'll be taking shots in the context you described is in practice mode. I care about how realistically things play out, I could care less how Kobe or Lebron is rated as long as they can do the things they do during a season. No need for fantasy scenarios, they don't help your argument at all.

The reason why Im not calm is b/c the logic u guys use to defend the ratings which are utterly disgusting. Ratings should be based off skill. I used the gym scenario for an example. And watching a game doesnt provide just opinions, it provides facts when watching without bias. Ratings should be based off skill not stats. Why is that hard to understand? Seems like common sense to me...

And again, Ken North just wrecked ur ***.

[Ken North]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Ratings should be based off skill not stats. Why is that hard to understand? Seems like common sense to me...

But stats are quantifiable, skill isn't. Saying Kobe should have xx Shot Mid just because that feels right when you watch him play, well, that doesn't work so well.

Kobe's Spot Up from non-3PT (i.e. Shot Close and Shot Mid, presumably) was 51.2% last season. That sounds pretty good to me. (Durant was 38.3% for reference)

[SdotThaDon]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Sure, but so is tunnel visioning on stats. Stats would only be accurate if each player played in a vacuum. They don't.

Someone on RealGM was arguing Steve Nash as the best offensive player, and uses his FG% as an example. But Nash only gets that FG% because he isn't being guarded the same way as a volume scorer is. If Nash suddenly starts taking 20 shots a game, the way he is defended is also going to change a lot.

So just looking at someone's stats and going, oh he rocks, well that doesn't work.

I do like stats though, but I must admit I prefer Synergy Sports over both HoopData and B-Ref, because they do at least to some degree provide a context for the stats. And also video links, so you can actually both look at the stats, and see what happened at the same time.

I read that same thread. However there really isn't a decent way to measure or represent context in our games, not yet. You understand that what we play is calculation based, what better way to simulate than with real data? Again I agree with your angle, I can't buy the whole "he should be an 80 because I think so" argument though. Stats support what we see. Everyone watches the same games, but interpret what they see differently for the most part. Hence the opinionated nature of evaluating players based on what we see.

The reason why Im not calm is b/c the logic u guys use to defend the ratings which are utterly disgusting. Ratings should be based off skill. I used the gym scenario for an example. And watching a game doesnt provide just opinions, it provides facts when watching without bias. Ratings should be based off skill not stats. Why is that hard to understand? Seems like common sense to me...

And again, Ken North just wrecked ur ***.

How can you measure skill accurately without bias? I'm going to be real with you. I just realized you're a dude with a Laker avatar crying about Kobe's mid rating, you don't care for stats either. Don't want to sterotype here but you sound like the typical Kobe fan, covering your ears at the mere mention of stats.....And for the record I actually agree with Ken to an extent, he makes sense and backs his points up with data.

[Ken North]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Personally, I think 2K needs to fire the 2K Insider, and hire me to do their ratings.

Or actually, hire anyone that occasionally watches basketball. That alone would be an improvement over their current "ratings".

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Yeah, and he averaged 4 ppg on 40% shooting.

Like I said, I don't care what his numbers from mid range were, giving him the second best mid range rating in the game is flat out absurd. He's going to be an absolutely deadly spot up shooter from mid range, it just doesn't make sense.

That is still a lot of shots.

What scares me is that based on stats he is probably taking a lot of his shots off the dribble so you can expect a high SOD rating and he is a fine ballhandler so he should be able to light it up off the dribble. You do have a point which I agree with. I always said the ratings should factor percentage, volume, and shot selection. They are looking at volume over the course of many games and that is cool but they should look at per game shot selection. Its a lot easier to take Pooh Jeter shots than Chris Paul shots. The way I see it is that Jeter should have an A in percentage a B - A in volume because he isnt a center who took 10 jumpshots and a D - C in selection because he isnt doing it pergame so his rating should drop until he is carrying a greater load for his team.

[DownunderCanuck]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

But stats are quantifiable, skill isn't. Saying Kobe should have xx Shot Mid just because that feels right when you watch him play, well, that doesn't work so well.

Well exactly that's the issue, if stats don't play a heavy role in ratings what can? I don't think 2k has the money to rent out gyms and have all the players come in and shoot, and dribble and what not. Nor do I think perception of skill is an effective measure, because as seen here people often have different opinions. In a perfect world 2k would magically know the true skill of every player in the NBA. Though I imagine they would all be offered GM desks if they could do that. One more thing you guys should not be so quick to forget about stats. NBA teams take them very seriously. The rockets especially put alot of time and money. And considering they are regarded as one of the more well run organizations in the league I would say it's a strong vote of confidence

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Well, let's be honest here for a sec.

Randolph, last season, shot 32.5% on Spot Up shots, which puts him at 0.7 points per play. That's 333rd in the league. Of a league with approximately 400 players, that's not very impressive.

But if a Laker goes on a tear for 8 games they get a boost. Randolph did it for more than 10 games in the playoffs and his shot selection is like that star while Ibaka's shot selection is that of a guy who is left open. If the Insider is going to boost players based on how they played last week then he should start with the playoffs.

[stillfeelme]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

I can't see giving players a boost or drop off of the playoffs especially when there is a season's worth of data. Zach did get hot in the playoffs but he really didn't shoot that well from mid range throughout the season. Below 38% is not going to get you rated high or well.

[ffaacc03]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

To enlight some, here is a part of a piece about the subject:

Friday, September 30, 2011 (Posted by Rashidi)

NBA 2K12 Point Guard Ratings + Changes


Real 2K Insider is breaking down the NBA 2K12 ratings one step further, now sorting them by position and seeing if we can learn anything (not to mention see who the worst rating offenders are). As I've mentioned in other posts, 2K has changed up their ratings formula. More on that in the second half of this post, where I list the rating changes and their effects on the much maligned Overall rating.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

POINT GUARD RATINGS

TOP 1-10
93 - Chris Paul
92 - Derrick Rose
90 - Deron Williams
88 - Russell Westbrook
85 - Rajon Rondo
84 - Steve Nash
82 - John Wall
80 - Stephen Curry
80 - Tony Parker
79 - Chauncey Billups

Aside from John Wall (who was closer to to 7th best rookie than he was to 7th best PG), I don't really have any complaints here. 2K typically does an okay job of rating their star players - more often than not they're the only ones that get any sort of attention. Everyone of these players saw multiple revisions throughout the year, which is more than one can say about the players towards the bottom of the list.

TOP 11-20
79 - Jrue Holiday
78 - Devin Harris
78 - Brandon Jennings
77 - Michael Conley
77 - Jason Kidd
77 - Ty Lawson
77 - Gilbert Arenas
76 - Kyle Lowry
75 - Raymond Felton
75 - Darren Collison

In reality, Gilbert Arenas isn't even in the top half of BACKUPS anymore, much less the top half of starters. Instead of improving in distraction free Orlando he put up a dreadful 8.6 PER, and his disappearing act was the main reason Orlando flopped in the first round. He can't guard the position, was never any good at setting up teammates, and this was BEFORE injuries ravaged his legs. He is DONE.

TOP 21-30
75 - Aaron Brooks
74 - Jameer Nelson
74 - Mo Williams
74 - Louis Williams
74 - Rodney Stuckey
74 - Nate Robinson
73 - Baron Davis
72 - Ramon Sessions
72 - D.J. Augustin
72 - Earl Boykins

Nate Robinson, Ramon Sessions, and Earl Boykins are top 30 NBA point guards. These guys are THIRD STRINGS on their own teams.

TOP 30-40
72 - Kirk Hinrich
72 - George Hill
71 - Andre Miller
70 - Jonny Flynn
69 - Jose Calderon
69 - Delonte West
69 - Toney Douglas
69 - T.J. Ford
69 - Will Bynum
69 - Ishmael Smith

Jonny Flynn was absolute GARBAGE for Minnesota last season, contributing heavily to their 65 loss season. He is a crappier, smaller version of Jerryd Bayless when healthy. In the world of 2K, he's an alternative to Andre Miller or Jose Calderon.

Ishmael Smith. I don't need to say anything else.

TOP 41-50
68 - Mario Chalmers
68 - Luke Ridnour
67 - Ricky Rubio
67 - Derek Fisher
67 - Keyon Dooling
67 - Chris Duhon
66 - Beno Udrih
65 - J.J. Barea
65 - Jerryd Bayless
65 - Jarrett Jack

Udrih. Barea. Bayless. Jack. Worse than Chris Duhon. In stores October 4th.

TOP 51-60
65 - C.J. Watson
65 - Eric Bledsoe
64 - Steve Blake
64 - Eric Maynor
63 - Jeff Teague
63 - Jordan Farmar
63 - Goran Dragic
63 - Earl Watson
63 - Sebastian Telfair
63 - Antonio Daniels

Let's pretend for a moment that Eric Maynor, Jeff Teague, Jordan Farmar, and Goran Dragic didn't play AT ALL over the last two years. In other words, pretend that they're Antonio Daniels.

TOP 61-70
63 - Sherron Collins
63 - Eugene Jeter
62 - Marcus Banks
62 - Patrick Mills
62 - Ronnie Price
61 - Jannero Pargo
61 - Daniel Gibson
61 - Carlos Arroyo
61 - Avery Bradley
61 - Eddie House

I think it's a nice touch that Sherron Collins is rated equally to the rest of the players in the top 60.

Daniel Gibson might have played as many minutes this season as the rest of these players COMBINED.

TOP 71-80
60 - Mike Bibby
60 - Sundiata Gaines
60 - Zabian Dowdell
60 - Armon Johnson
59 - Acie Law
58 - Shaun Livingston
58 - Willie Warren
57 - Ben Uzoh
56 - Jeremy Lin
55 - Mustafa Shakur

Mike Bibby is apparently not a top 70 NBA point guard. I am sure the Heat would have gone to the Finals with Jeremy Lin as their starting PG. I personally can't wait until the rookies come in and knock Bibby down another 10 spots.

It's always amusing to see a player with a 3 year, 10 million dollar contract (Livingston) surrounded by D-Leaguers. 2K Sports calls this "business as usual."

TOP 81-91
55 - Greivis Vasquez
55 - Lester Hudson
54 - Luther Head
53 - Anthony Carter
53 - Chris Quinn
52 - A.J. Price
51 - Royal Ivey
50 - John Lucas
50 - Orien Greene
50 - Mario West
48 - Pape Sy

A.J. Price has been the Pacers backup PG for two years now. Considering the last two PGs on this list aren't PGs, can someone let the Pacers know they've been using the 5th worst PG in the entire league all this time? No wonder T.J. Ford hates it there in Indiana.

Can somebody let the Spurs know that they got lit up by the #81 PG in the league?

Nothing new here. The players with the worst ratings are still the same as last year... and the year before that... and the year before that...

__________________________________________________ ________________________________


RATING CHANGES

I uncovered in a previous post that the vast majority of players (perhaps 99% of them, from the looks of it) ONLY had their shot ratings adjusted. Since those were conveniently the only ratings shown in the ratings video, this makes it much easier to tell why players went up and down.

I implemented the shot rating changes into 2K's final 2K11 roster to see how the player's overall rating was affected. This helped me see how 2K's Overall formula has changed.

...

... for the rest of this article, check the roster forum in here or the post author blog.

[BOSsTOwN]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Kobe is a better mid range shooter than Amare and pooh jeter. for their ratings to be higher than his in that category is stupid.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

Kobe is a better mid range shooter than Amare and pooh jeter. for their ratings to be higher than his in that category is stupid.

Rashidi makes a great point that there really are two shot ratings inbetween layups and threes and Kobe's 99/78 are pretty damn elite before you even bring up SoD and SiT.

[Notorious Arab]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

I'd like to continue and debate but this is a waste of time. Everyone just enjoy the game and hopefully 2k learns their lesson and higher Kobe's mid range a couple more points but whatever. If I start to miss wide open mid range shots with Kobe, Im coming back and complaining lol.

[Ken North]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

What scares me is that based on stats he is probably taking a lot of his shots off the dribble so you can expect a high SOD rating and he is a fine ballhandler so he should be able to light it up off the dribble. You do have a point which I agree with. I always said the ratings should factor percentage, volume, and shot selection. They are looking at volume over the course of many games and that is cool but they should look at per game shot selection. Its a lot easier to take Pooh Jeter shots than Chris Paul shots. The way I see it is that Jeter should have an A in percentage a B - A in volume because he isnt a center who took 10 jumpshots and a D - C in selection because he isnt doing it pergame so his rating should drop until he is carrying a greater load for his team.

His scoring is 25% on Spot Up, about 25% on transition, 21% in a P&R and about 10% on iso. Rest is by and large insignificant.

Out of the 31 FGs made on Spot Up, (at least) 24 of them were completely unguarded catch & shoot situations.

[JJJ_Joe_Johnson]

Re: NBA 2k12 Ratings Reasonable Explanation

I'm done! 2K must've never watched a basketball game in their lives. Andre Iguodala higher than Joe JOhnson. Really? Joe JOhnson is coming off his worst year since he's been in Atlanta and he still averaged way better numbers than Iguodala.

[GLZ43]

Would Jellybean having an 88 or 89 Mid be acceptable? I think it would be, and depending on how you look at it he actually does. If you agree with Rashidi's notion that Mid and Close are subsets of a player's Midrange game, that is. Add his ratings in those two categories and divide by 2 (99close + 78mid/2) and you get an overall "Midrange" ability of 88.5, which I believe is a fair representation of real life Kobe. He's more efficient/productive on closer midrange shots (Close) than longer midrange shots (Mid) in real life, so I think his ratings make sense, taken in context.

The labels are just misleading.