"The Closer" Damian Lillard

[InthePaint]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Curry > damian

With this being Currys third season thats not a big statement.

[d11king]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

d11 I agree 99%. Pressure is a state of mind, and clutch simply is a term invented to mean players that don't succumb to the pressure. I played organized sports for 18 years of my life; you can't tell me that there isn't added pressure on the last play. Your blood is rushing and your heart pounding up to that instant when the play happens. What happens in your mind next is the key. If you think about the play, you're done. And that's what most players do. That's really all clutch is, just the confidence in yourself and winning that mental battle.

I played organized sports a lot, and I have a walk off hit, a walk off squeeze bunt (really proud of that one), and my senior year in high school i had one game tying homer and two go ahead homers in the last innings of games. Same in basketball. No buzzer beater game winners, but a lot of shots down the stretch. I did all this after I was about 13. I say all of this because when I was younger or even just less confident in my abilities, I really felt the pressure. Its a mental battle, nothing else, but its a tough one nonetheless, and one that very few guys can ever win.

So I agree that really, for clutch guys, ratings shouldn't go up, they don't magically get better, they just shouldn't go down. Its such an intangible thing that its really hard to quantify, let alone boil down to one number.

Lmao walk off squeeze... I wish I could pull that one off. I was always afraid of bunting because I didn't want my finger to get jammed. Anyway, yes the juices were going during a couple of "clutch" situations when I played basketball in high school, but after I read that Brady quote, I became calm and more relaxed, bu eventually cocky, to where I felt the shot was going in no matter what, so instead of worrying about the shot I started gathering ideas for my celebration hahah true story.

The older I got, the more I hated the term "clutch players." I feel like they're just shots. Give Derek Fisher that 0.4 shot again, I give him a 10% chance of making it.... it just so happens that shot he hit, was the one that went in. I do have to admit some players have the ability to block out the situation, I was one of them, not to brag, but that's probably why I feel the way I do about the situation. Once you start thinking about it, and thinking about the situation when it's time to take that jumper or that swing, or whatever, your chances of success diminish. In 2k terms I hate the Closer sig skill, it's unrealistic but it's the first year of existence so I can't harp on it too much. They're shouldn't be a gigantic boost, for example if Melo has a 47% chance of knocking down a regular shot but when the closer sig skill activates, he now has a 67%. That's just malarkey.

[ILLSmak]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Well they already gave it to Lebron, So might as well give it to Everyone else

haha. They need two levels of closer. Closer 1 would be maintains and closer 2 would be raises. I think LeBron has moved past the ****ting the bed part, but I don't think he's elevated.

-Smak

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Lmao walk off squeeze... I wish I could pull that one off. I was always afraid of bunting because I didn't want my finger to get jammed. Anyway, yes the juices were going during a couple of "clutch" situations when I played basketball in high school, but after I read that Brady quote, I became calm and more relaxed, bu eventually cocky, to where I felt the shot was going in no matter what, so instead of worrying about the shot I started gathering ideas for my celebration hahah true story.

The older I got, the more I hated the term "clutch players." I feel like they're just shots. Give Derek Fisher that 0.4 shot again, I give him a 10% chance of making it.... it just so happens that shot he hit, was the one that went in. I do have to admit some players have the ability to block out the situation, I was one of them, not to brag, but that's probably why I feel the way I do about the situation. Once you start thinking about it, and thinking about the situation when it's time to take that jumper or that swing, or whatever, your chances of success diminish. In 2k terms I hate the Closer sig skill, it's unrealistic but it's the first year of existence so I can't harp on it too much. They're shouldn't be a gigantic boost, for example if Melo has a 47% chance of knocking down a regular shot but when the closer sig skill activates, he now has a 67%. That's just malarkey.

I do agree with that. That's why I think that the clutch rating should be a simple percentage of how much skill you retain in those closing moments. Because it is real to a certain extent, however impossible to really quantify. However, there are guys who are good at pressure situations. Actually, I think the best barometer of "clutch" is free throw percentage, because there's a shot you can just sit there and think about. Its no secret that those last second free throws are mentally tougher to hit, but you're right, its not like they suddenly gain a higher ability to hit that shot.

That being said, I do like the closer somewhat because I think fatigue affects shot range just a bit too much (I mean I've had Curry's shot going down to the 60's with not even two thirds of his energy gone, and it seems that the shot range varies linearly with fatigue, which is not true at all), so it does act as sort of an autocorrect.

[slimm44]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

haha. They need two levels of closer. Closer 1 would be maintains and closer 2 would be raises. I think LeBron has moved past the ****ting the bed part, but I don't think he's elevated.

-Smak

I agree with levels of closer, but how can you say Lebron doesn't consistently raise his game in the clutch? In last year's Finals, this was his stat line:

40MPG, 10-21FGA, 1-5 3PT, 7-9FT, 30PTS, 10Reb, 7AST, 2STL

He nearly averaged a triple double against the 2nd best team in the league while doing EVERYTHING on the floor. What would be him raising his game? 40PPG? 50? 15 Reb? Averaging a 35-15-12?

In terms of the definition of clutch, his per48 minute average last season was:

33 points, 15 rebounds, over 9 assists.

INSANE.

[d11king]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

I agree with levels of closer, but how can you say Lebron doesn't consistently raise his game in the clutch? In last year's Finals, this was his stat line:

40MPG, 10-21FGA, 1-5 3PT, 7-9FT, 30PTS, 10Reb, 7AST, 2STL

He nearly averaged a triple double against the 2nd best team in the league while doing EVERYTHING on the floor. What would be him raising his game? 40PPG? 50? 15 Reb? Averaging a 35-15-12?

In terms of the definition of clutch, his per48 minute average last season was:

33 points, 15 rebounds, over 9 assists.

INSANE.

Still, that wasn't a clutch situation, that was the "NBA Finals". Why wouldn't you raise your game for the NBA Finals? Though the NBA Finals is the most pressurized situation in basketball, if you let it get to you, (see James Harden '12 Finals, LeBron James '11 Finals). The only counter argument I can't make for this situation was that LeBron virtually did this the entire playoffs, down 2-1 to Pacers, the rest of that series, and down 3-2 to Boston, and that ridiculous statline he put up there. But we also most remember we're talking about LeBron James, not some slouch.

[slimm44]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Still, that wasn't a clutch situation, that was the "NBA Finals". Why wouldn't you raise your game for the NBA Finals? Though the NBA Finals is the most pressurized situation in basketball, if you let it get to you, (see James Harden '12 Finals, LeBron James '11 Finals). The only counter argument I can't make for this situation was that LeBron virtually did this the entire playoffs, down 2-1 to Pacers, the rest of that series, and down 3-2 to Boston, and that ridiculous statline he put up there. But we also most remember we're talking about LeBron James, not some slouch.

Care to address his "Clutch" stats from last season? Also, regarding the last statement, that was the crux of my post. He's so freaking good that I think the expectations are too-high for what would be considered "Raising his game". Him simply playing at his normal level in the clutch (which he actually plays slightly better than normal) should be considered clutch.

[detriotpistonfan]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

The kid has ice in his veins but he doesn't deserve the sig. He's gotta keep doing it and has got to do it next season too.

I do however think that lebron having the closer sig is pure comedy.

[slimm44]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

The kid has ice in his veins but he doesn't deserve the sig. He's gotta keep doing it and has got to do it next season too.

I do however think that lebron having the closer sig is pure comedy.

Yup, a statline of 33-15-9 in "Clutch" situations is pretty weak.

[jj171]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

The kid is coooooooold blooded (rick james voice) give him the closer sig

[yungmeaks]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

Yup, a statline of 33-15-9 in "Clutch" situations is pretty weak.

You don't average 33 - 15 - 9 in clutch situations dude. I think you're being mislead. Clutch situations come down to a certain time during the 4th quarter when buckets are needed most. Not throughout 4 whole quarters in a game. Averaging 33 - 15 - 9 in a couple of clutch situations is pretty amazing though, if that's what you're getting at. But I doubt that's what you're saying.

You can average 33 - 15 - 9 in every game, but never be able show up with a bucket when it's needed most. It's not impossible at all.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

But if we're going to throw around these numbers, we need some percentages as well. 33-15-9 is great, but he touches it a lot more late in games because he is the best player. He is more conditioned than most players, so he gets to rebounds better late in games, thus the higher boards number. He has the ball in his hands 21 seconds of the shot clock, so he obviously is going to get more assists, and until I see a shooting percentage and I know that the reason for the 33 isn't because he bullies and chicken wings his way to the hoop (a la Micheal Jordan) and then gets called for a little touch foul and makes his normal 75% of free throws, I won't believe that this is anything more than his average stats that have just been inflated due to more touches.

Kobe scored 34 the other night! He played awesome!

No, actually he took 41 shots, which is unacceptable with free throws factored in. Just a quick example of how sports stats can get skewed based on the lesser known factors leading in.

[Bunselpower32]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

I agree with levels of closer, but how can you say Lebron doesn't consistently raise his game in the clutch? In last year's Finals, this was his stat line:

40MPG, 10-21FGA, 1-5 3PT, 7-9FT, 30PTS, 10Reb, 7AST, 2STL

He nearly averaged a triple double against the 2nd best team in the league while doing EVERYTHING on the floor. What would be him raising his game? 40PPG? 50? 15 Reb? Averaging a 35-15-12?

In terms of the definition of clutch, his per48 minute average last season was:

33 points, 15 rebounds, over 9 assists.

INSANE.

So shooting 47 percent from the field, 20% from three point land, 77% from the line is raising his game? Lets see. His 11-12 stats for that are as follows: FG% was 53.1, 3P% was 36.2, and FT% was 77.1. Hm...seems that his game actually went down!

Furthermore, his Assist percentage went down in the playoffs, as did his steal percentage, block percentage, and his win shares per 48 minutes! His rebounding percentage went up by .8%, which is more than accounted for by his superior conditioning allowing him to beat the big men to long rebounds late in games. You know what did improve? His usage rate. So he puts up less impressive numbers as far as percentages go with increased minutes. Boy, I'm loving that 12 point attribute increase he gets now...

[slimm44]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

You don't average 33 - 15 - 9 in clutch situations dude. I think you're being mislead. Clutch situations come down to a certain time during the 4th quarter when buckets are needed most. Not throughout 4 whole quarters in a game. Averaging 33 - 15 - 9 in a couple of clutch situations is pretty amazing though, if that's what you're getting at. But I doubt that's what you're saying.

You can average 33 - 15 - 9 in every game, but never be able show up with a bucket when it's needed most. It's not impossible at all.

Those stats were LBJ's "Clutch" stats from last season via 82games.com (19 game sample). What I said is what I meant. Clutch on that website is defined as the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter with neither team ahead by more than 5, with stats per48 minutes. I've been pretty clear in multiple posts in this thread. I think Lebron is clutch. You don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

But if we're going to throw around these numbers, we need some percentages as well. 33-15-9 is great, but he touches it a lot more late in games because he is the best player. He is more conditioned than most players, so he gets to rebounds better late in games, thus the higher boards number. He has the ball in his hands 21 seconds of the shot clock, so he obviously is going to get more assists, and until I see a shooting percentage and I know that the reason for the 33 isn't because he bullies and chicken wings his way to the hoop (a la Micheal Jordan) and then gets called for a little touch foul and makes his normal 75% of free throws, I won't believe that this is anything more than his average stats that have just been inflated due to more touches.

Kobe scored 34 the other night! He played awesome!

No, actually he took 41 shots, which is unacceptable with free throws factored in. Just a quick example of how sports stats can get skewed based on the lesser known factors leading in.

So you're trying to argue against Lebron being clutch by saying that he gets the most touches on his team and by using an example of Kobe having one game of volume scoring while inefficient? Nice. You don't think he's clutch. I do. We'll agree to disagree.

So shooting 47 percent from the field, 20% from three point land, 77% from the line is raising his game? Lets see. His 11-12 stats for that are as follows: FG% was 53.1, 3P% was 36.2, and FT% was 77.1. Hm...seems that his game actually went down!

Furthermore, his Assist percentage went down in the playoffs, as did his steal percentage, block percentage, and his win shares per 48 minutes! His rebounding percentage went up by .8%, which is more than accounted for by his superior conditioning allowing him to beat the big men to long rebounds late in games. You know what did improve? His usage rate. So he puts up less impressive numbers as far as percentages go with increased minutes. Boy, I'm loving that 12 point attribute increase he gets now...

You're all over the map. You're not even looking at "Clutch" situations, but the entire playoffs in which he played. And you're trying to say that he played WORSE in the playoffs than in the regular season? Did you watch the playoffs last season? If anything, he established himself as the absolute best player alive. For the sake of this conversation, you're comparing to apples to oranges. That being said, you don't think he's clutch. I do. We'll agree to disagree.

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Re: "The Closer" Damian Lillard

The "closer" Joe Johnson lol