A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

[NikeBlitz]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

Same issues since what ??? at least NBA 2K9 (rotations, progressions ect ...)

It's getting old ...

[charley farley]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

I have to mention Sega's Football Manager series again

Aha, I've been playing FM and CM, as it was previously since 1996! Many of the ideas for my working come directly from my experience with Football manager and the way they create newgens.

As mentioned above they have a dynamic potential system, where by a player will have a POT of -1 up to -10. -1 means a potential of 50-75 (on a scale of 200). POT of -10 will be a potential of 170-200.

This enables a very dynamic, fluid and varied game world that is very variable between individual games, while still maintaining the overall correct balance of skills and abilities.

Also, you are correct in that the system 2K use is completely broken, but there is absolutely no way 2K will take any notice of this and fix it in any way either for 2k13 or for 2k14 and onwards.

I'm merely trying to work out some rough framework to try and make association vaguely enjoyable after 2014.

Thanks for your response

[alburst]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

Ellis is one of the guys really screwed up with default rosters. Do you play on PC or console and what roster do you use?

I play on PS3 with 2K's official updates (the latest one). Going to download some other rosters but I don't have internet access for my PS3 right now. Can you suggest any good rosters for PS3 that have an offline link?

[mango_prom]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

I play on PS3 with 2K's official updates (the latest one). Going to download some other rosters but I don't have internet access for my PS3 right now. Can you suggest any good rosters for PS3 that have an offline link?

I play PC only, but this seems to be the best PS3 roster...compare the player tendencies in this project to 2ks default and you'll realize how incredibly bad game design has been for years.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...r-project.html

offline link
http://www.sendspace.com/file/b6roxj

[CWSapp757]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

I have been frustrated with the state of Association mode for years now. As many have stated the inflated default rosters are a huge issue, but I have always felt like the biggest problem is the 2K generated draft classes. I am not sure that many people understand how sloppy and damaging these generated classes are to Association mode. There are a multitude of different issues. Many have stated the issues with potential so I will not even go in to that. There are more issues however.
1) The discrepancy in shooting tendencies between positions are wide and unexplainable. 2K big men often come in with a shooting tendency of 35 and below no matter what kind of scoring ratings they have. This sometimes leads to a player being a "star" type player in regards to overall but only averaging like 5 to 8 points each game.

2) There are too many lower rated players that simply excel at nothing. Obviously there will be players that come in with low ratings that do not have the ability to score. But a ton of players in the generated draft classes simply can't do... well anything. Pretty much every player that enters the draft in real life excels in one area or is at least average in a multitude of different areas.

3) For some reason, a very large portion of the point guards (except for the top rated ones) come in with very low three point ratings. For example, one generated class I was looking at before editing it had 14 point guards and 12 of them had three point ratings of 62 or lower.

4) Sig skills are obviously butchered. There are big men that can't dribble that have elite pull up animations, point guards that shoot like Yao Ming and many more. This may not be a big deal to some people but it makes the game unrealistic.

There are also some cosmetic issues that I won't go in to detail about because they do not effect the game play. none the less, they are very annoying. This is the reason that people like me and Swagger Coach have continued to be dedicated to providing realistic draft classes. Without them, your Association will unfortunately be a big mess.

[mango_prom]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

The discrepancy in shooting tendencies between positions are wide and unexplainable. 2K big men often come in with a shooting tendency of 35 and below no matter what kind of scoring ratings they have. This sometimes leads to a player being a "star" type player in regards to overall but only averaging like 5 to 8 points each game.

This is also true for individual tendencies. Shooting values make no sense if you look at player ratings. 7'2 centers jacking up 3s, J.J.Barea clones with prime Jordan athleticism, you name it...
The same with touches (I go OCD about this, it's broken...95OVR PGs getting no plays called at all, what a joke). Even if it worked, 2k13 seemingly randomizes this tendency peaking at <70 without any sense.
Freelancing tendencies flawed, too. Just compare them to a player's skill set.

There are too many lower rated players that simply excel at nothing. Obviously there will be players that come in with low ratings that do not have the ability to score. But a ton of players in the generated draft classes simply can't do... well anything. Pretty much every player that enters the draft in real life excels in one area or is at least average in a multitude of different areas.

This is where player styles could actually make a difference if 2k decided to care about association. If player ratings reflected abilities you'd associate with a certain style of play, we could see much more variation.
I'd break it down like the FM series does with overall categories like Physical,Mental,Technical.
You could further specify these if you want but the idea is to create different levels of skillsets associated with certain player types.
A spot up shooter could be more likely to have low athleticism compared to a slasher and so on.
By including random variation in this process (there are exceptions like prme Ray Allen or skilled big men like Dirk), created players could be much more life like. Right now most regens becoming superstars are skilled at everything, all the SGs have every shooting rating/dunk/layup >90...I spend a lot of time with decreasing attributes, so teams consist not only of a dozen clones of the same player.

I don't see why 2k can't fix this. There are only 32 teams x 15 players + free agents. In FM2013 I currently play with a database of 30000 players, and it's incredibly well designed and simply works.

[schnaidt1]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

great post.

def giving this a bump

[alburst]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

I play PC only, but this seems to be the best PS3 roster...compare the player tendencies in this project to 2ks default and you'll realize how incredibly bad game design has been for years.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...r-project.html

offline link
http://www.sendspace.com/file/b6roxj

Thanks man! Can you just tell me how to put those rosters in my PS3? Because im trying to put that file to my chrome resigner but it doesnt work.

[built2last]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

Fire Post! By nba2k13 taking away d-league makes it hard to have the roster i want short/Long-term, certain players need minutes and minutes in the league do not grow on trees EVEN WHEN PLAYING 48min so sending prospect to the NBADL allows those players to develop for a couple of years depending on talent level and it wont effect the Mood/chemistry my Nba roster.

#random Chris paul doesnt sign his extension and signed with the cavs in the offseason.WHY? association mode

[JazzMan]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

The rosters get way too inflated by the 3rd year. Guys are in the high 80's/90
's and the worst player on the worst team is typically a mid 70's player, which is a very good role player or average starter for a team.

[threattonature]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

It's funny because I made a HUGE post of this topic a few years back on 2K forums, during 2k11 suggestions for 2k12.

After 3 seasons the entire Asso is already ruined so the best thing you can do is tone down all ratings and potential ratings. I did this and it delayed the process by 2-3 years. But even an 80 Pot rating on someone like Waiters is too much. But somewhere in the 60's & he may not improve at all. So I have to find a middle ground there, which would take some testing.....

True about the drafts though. The post I referred to, my section about the Draft was HUGEEE. It was practically game-breaking to have some goofy, alien looking mental patient with a wild name as the #1 overall pick! Now they appear to follow some kind of formula, but still the drafts still inject too much talent into the league.

I've actually made a couple drafts with these concerns in mind. Names that work. No one gets TOO good unless there is a legit star. A top 10 pick has the ability to get to 84 OVR, average a double-double, and stay roughly at that rating. But only a handful of guys have the chance to reach 80+ OVR star status. Then I throw in a fair amount of role players. Your rebounding/ Post Presence PF/C, either big, or a Rodman/Faried/Bridges type. Your spot up shooter at the 2, 3 or stretch 4. Either straight up a Korver/Novak, or a player with a more all around game ala Ray Allen or (I guess) Peja, (not as lights out of course). Then good wing defenders and athletic "glue" guys with Scrapper, Bruiser, Charge Card and intangible sig skills like that. Also sometimes, I throw in volume scoring 6th Man types in the low-mid 60's with potential to get to mid-high 70's in time.

Also I absolutely mess with their signature animations, hot spots & tendencies, so they play like the roles players I make them to be. So no 2 guards who shoot like a big man, or even worse, never shoot at all & ect. crap like that.

I combine the toned down roster with my drafts, and it's a far more enjoyable experience. But it could still use some editing. I could use 2-3 more drafts . Have only made 3. If anyone would like to try them out or anything just say so and I'll PM you the name to search. Because they honestly work much better if you're looking for a more 'sim' approach to Asso. But ultimately you have to tone down OVR ratings and potential rating on basically everyone who gets too good....which is almost everybody.....Then Asso plays far, far better.

That's kind of what I was getting at in my post in regards to how 2K should do the draft classes. Have a database of 1000 or so players that have all been designed to be different but to actually make sense. so shooting guards and point guards come out with better shooting skills. Seperate all the players into pools, like 5-10 franchise players, 100 stars, 400 role players, 500 busts or whatever. Then in each draft grab a certain number of players out of the pool for each draft and assign them random names from there.

[mango_prom]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

That's kind of what I was getting at in my post in regards to how 2K should do the draft classes. Have a database of 1000 or so players that have all been designed to be different but to actually make sense. so shooting guards and point guards come out with better shooting skills. Seperate all the players into pools, like 5-10 franchise players, 100 stars, 400 role players, 500 busts or whatever. Then in each draft grab a certain number of players out of the pool for each draft and assign them random names from there.

I don't thinks it's necessary to create a pool of fixed players. What about creating different player types for every position which a certain amount of randomization for individual player ratings based on these base frameworks?
Basically giving a variety of random possibilities limited by rating caps based on positions, playing styles and player potential. So in a way we'd have a pool of designed players, but with room for variations between different associations

[charley farley]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

I don't thinks it's necessary to create a pool of fixed players. What about creating different player types for every position which a certain amount of randomization for individual player ratings based on these base frameworks?
Basically giving a variety of random possibilities limited by rating caps based on positions, playing styles and player potential. So in a way we'd have a pool of designed players, but with room for variations between different associations

I agree. All you would need would be a pool of 30 or so player types (athletic, Passing, Scoring, defensive PGs. Slashing, Spot-up, Defensive SGs and so on). and then the stats could be randomised within a set range for each draft class.

All you would need to do would be to select a random distribution of the various pool types, run some randomisation and hey presto a realistic, but completely individual draft class.

I've started an excel sheet to hold the data for player types in Leftos Editor format, however I'm not aware of how each individual stat relates to player type. I'm going to do some work and use existing players as the player type base to focus their skills and then look to make an 'average' player for each type - someone who will be about a 65 OVR.

My plan is then to create draft classes, import them at the start of the season and then use Leftos Editor to run the randomisation, deliberately making some players generally different, making some specifically better and some specifically worse from the default 65 OVR, so that I have draft classes that fir in with Slimms rosters over a period of years.

Very happy if anyone can come up with certain player types values for the skills and sig skills, and happy to share my work if it is useful or useable.

[threattonature]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

I don't thinks it's necessary to create a pool of fixed players. What about creating different player types for every position which a certain amount of randomization for individual player ratings based on these base frameworks?
Basically giving a variety of random possibilities limited by rating caps based on positions, playing styles and player potential. So in a way we'd have a pool of designed players, but with room for variations between different associations

I love this too. As long as something is done to make sure players coming out match the positions and have some kind kind of base for ratings. Hell almost use the My Player seperators where there are different kinds of SGs for example. If ones a deep threat have him with a minimum 75-80 3PT shot. So yeah I love this idea.

[alburst]

Re: A look at Association Player Development, problems and possible ideas..

Hey I saw players like Kobe and Lebron have 99 potential even though they are 28+ years old. Do potential ratings for 28+ aged players determine how fast they decline? Sorry if already mentioned in the thread