Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

[Optik]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

They need to take momentum completely out of the game as well. Momentum isn't real. It's a superstitious human construct. The only thing that consecutive shots or good plays in a row can affect is the physiology of the individual and the team. This already occurs naturally, as in it affects (or can potentially affect) the physiology of the human user. If things are going against me in a game, and some douche decides to replay every dunk or every play or taunts me by pausing the game a lot or is telling me to quit, I could get pissed, and that could throw my game off even more. I could call a timeout to collect my thoughts and calm myself, but that shouldn't an affect on some kind of NFL Street gamebreaker hidden in the game. It should just be a placebo effect. There's no proof that timeouts can change the swing of a game, so why are 2K implementing this so-called "momentum".

The way 2K make momentum is absurd - it's as if there were actual basketball gods just causing havoc just for the fun of it. It isn't fun. It's just stupid. I shouldn't feel like one of the peasants in Ancient Greek mythology and just be a pawn in Zeus and co's chess games. 2K need to stop playing God.

[mango_prom]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

They need to take momentum completely out of the game as well. Momentum isn't real. It's a superstitious human construct. The only thing that consecutive shots or good plays in a row can affect is the physiology of the individual and the team. This already occurs naturally, as in it affects (or can potentially affect) the physiology of the human user. If things are going against me in a game, and some douche decides to replay every dunk or every play or taunts me by pausing the game a lot or is telling me to quit, I could get pissed, and that could throw my game off even more. I could call a timeout to collect my thoughts and calm myself, but that shouldn't an affect on some kind of NFL Street gamebreaker hidden in the game. It should just be a placebo effect. There's no proof that timeouts can change the swing of a game, so why are 2K implementing this so-called "momentum".

The way 2K make momentum is absurd - it's as if there were actual basketball gods just causing havoc just for the fun of it. It isn't fun. It's just stupid. I shouldn't feel like one of the peasants in Ancient Greek mythology and just be a pawn in Zeus and co's chess games. 2K need to stop playing God.

At least, momentum should be optional just as sig skills. These features are clearly aimed at replicating common misconceptions about basketball, which are to some degree a result of the NBA marketing individual stars with almost super-human abilities instead of team ball.
That's fine, but we shouldn't be forced to play that way.

[cgalligan]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

How can you rationally argue that Kobe Bryant is a different player at 4:59 in the fourth quarter to what he was just two seconds ago? You can't, because it's an absurd argument, and the existence of the "Closer" skill for that reason is also absurd.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but, I think you're totally off base on this one...

It's an absolute FACT that there are certain players that "take over" games... It's always been that way in the NBA... We can sit here and debate on HOW 2K can represent that in this video game, but, there is absolutely no way that you can deny the fact that there are players, that do TAKE OVER a game...

[Optik]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

At least, momentum should be optional just as sig skills. These features are clearly aimed at replicating common misconceptions about basketball, which are to some degree a result of the NBA marketing individual stars with almost super-human abilities instead of team ball.
That's fine, but we shouldn't be forced to play that way.

Not all signature skills are equal though. Clearly some of them make the game more realistic. "Chasedown Artist", for example. That was clearly necessary as it separated big men who are usually facing the offensive player and perimeter players like LeBron who are behind the offensive player.
"Corner Specialist" was also justified. The corner 3 is the shortest 3 in basketball and the efficiency from their needed to be separated from the 3pt zones split into thirds.

2K aren't the kind of company to give the user much control. We can't even edit player's hair without doing hex edits. The best we could hope for is if we just told them flat out that we don't want sig skills like "Closer" and we don't want momentum in ANY part of the game.

[cgalligan]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

Here is a great article of exactly what I'm talking about...

A measure of an athlete is the performance when the game is most on the line. So it shouldn't be surprising that some of the top players in the NBA are the leading scorers in the fourth quarter.

Topping the list is Oklahoma City Thunder forward Kevin Durant, who scores 8.8 points per game in the fourth quarter: He is shooting 49.8% from the field, including 40% on threes, and gets to free throw line 3.1 times per game where he shoots 90.1%.

NBA A to Z: Read the rest of Jeff's NBA notes

Los Angeles Lakers guard Kobe Bryant averages 8.2 points and is second. He takes 5.9 shots per game in the fourth quarter and is shooting 46.5% and 90.8% from the foul line.

"You can kind of sense when your team needs a kick-start and you try to do that," Bryant told USA TODAY Sports. "At certain times in games and you need a big basket, they're looking at you to make those big plays and you need to make them."

Bryant's Lakers are third in the league in fourth quarter scoring, averaging 25.6 points. Durant's Thunder at fourth, averaging 25.4.

The San Antonio Spurs are the top-scoring team in the fourth quarter, averaging 26.4 points and the Houston Rockets are second at 26.2.

Here is the rest of the top 10 individuals:

New York Knicks forward Carmelo Anthony, 7.6 points: Shooting 48.3% from the floor, including 40% on threes, while taking 5.1 shots per game in the fourth. Averaging 1.7 rebounds in the fourth.

Cleveland guard Kyrie Irving, 6.6 points: Shooting 84.5% from the line and 43.9% from the field – just 27.1% on threes.

Los Angeles Clippers guard Jamal Crawford, 6.5 points: Logs serious minutes in the fourth quarter – 10.7 per game and is shooting 92.5% from the foul line. Shooting 43% from the field and 36.8% on threes in the final quarter.

Houston guard James Harden, 6.1 points: Gets to the line often and the fourth quarter is no exception, taking league-high 2.7 free throws per game in just 8.6 minutes in the final quarter. Shooting 41.5% from the field and 31.1% on three-pointers.

Miami forward LeBron James, 5.9 points: Shooting 50% in the fourth quarter, including 40% on threes, 1.9 rebounds, 1.8 assists, but just 73.1% from the line while playing 8.8 minutes in the fourth. A lot of everything.

Golden State guard Stephen Curry , 5.7 points: Shooting a fantastic 46.3% on threes in the fourth and almost half of Curry's four field goal attempt per game in the fourth quarter are three-pointers.

San Antonio Spurs guard Tony Parker, 5.5 points: Solid, just solid. Shooting 53.3% from the field and the same percentage on threes with 1.3 assists per game in the fourth quarter – and just 7.4 minutes per game in the fourth.

Oklahoma City guard Russell Westbrook, 5.4 points: Like Durant, Harden Bryant and Anthony, Westbrook gets to the line – 2.6 attempts per game in the fourth. But he is shooting just 36.7% from the field and 31% on threes in the fourth quarter.

Notice what Kobe Bryant said...

"You can kind of sense when your team needs a kick-start and you try to do that," Bryant told USA TODAY Sports. "At certain times in games and you need a big basket, they're looking at you to make those big plays and you need to make them."

So, you can't say players don't "take over" a game... The question is, HOW does 2K represent this take over mentality if you don't want them to give those players a couple ratings boosts?

[Optik]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but, I think you're totally off base on this one...

It's an absolute FACT that there are certain players that "take over" games... It's always been that way in the NBA... We can sit here and debate on HOW 2K can represent that in this video game, but, there is absolutely no way that you can deny the fact that there are players, that do TAKE OVER a game...

I'm not denying people take over games, nowhere in my post do I even suggest that. What I'm criticising is the notion that we need to have artificial stat boosts for certain players at an arbitrary point in the game. It isn't simulation. User vs user, this is absolutely unjustified. Anything including the CPU is irrelevant as they already boost the stats depending on the difficulty anyway.

You can have tendencies to do with mentality and aggressiveness and so forth, but this thread wasn't about tendencies. It was about stat boosts at certain times. It is a stupid concept.

[mango_prom]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

So, you can't say players don't "take over" a game... The question is, HOW does 2K represent this take over mentality if you don't want them to give those players a couple ratings boosts?

The answer is simply to include an option to override touches values during the final minutes of a game resulting in more plays being called for your go-to guy. That's it. Ratings are not related to this "stepping up" thing at all. The word "mentality" should already be self-explanatory...it's related to how players act (=tendencies), and not how good they are at it (=ratings).

[Optik]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

The answer is simply to include an option to override touches values during the final minutes of a game resulting in more plays being called for your go-to guy. That's it. Ratings are not related to this "stepping up" thing at all.

The guy you're quoting is arguing a strawman, but nevertheless you're right. However, it needs to be a numeric value, because Kobe won't always take over (like in Game 7 of the Suns/Lakers playoff series all those years ago) and there are a lot of times Westbrook will just ignore Durant.

[mango_prom]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

The guy you're quoting is arguing a strawman, but nevertheless you're right. However, it needs to be a numeric value, because Kobe won't always take over (like in Game 7 of the Suns/Lakers playoff series all those years ago) and there are a lot of times Westbrook will just ignore Durant.

I agree. My idea would be based on the already existing touches framework. Maybe 2k is able, after 3 years of not doing anything, to implement a playcalling logic using only the touches value to determine who gets a play called for on each possession. So basically a high value gives a player better odds to get a play called for.
Now there could be an option to give players a bonus on this value for clutch situations.

Ideal would be a lineup screen where we can assign touches for a whole team roster instead of the individual player edit profile right now. Based on that, 2k could allow us to change touches values using something like a "clutch" menu. So for the final minutes, we could reduce touches for role players and increase the probability of good scorers to take shots.

For example, using the Mavs you might like to have increased touches for Dirk,Carter and Mayo in clutch situations while Wright and Marion will get less attention. I think this concept could help to differentiate the general game plan of teams from crunch time, where offensive flow gets somewhat thrown out of the window. So 2 different touches profiles are the way to go in my opinion.

[JazzMan]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but, I think you're totally off base on this one...

It's an absolute FACT that there are certain players that "take over" games... It's always been that way in the NBA... We can sit here and debate on HOW 2K can represent that in this video game, but, there is absolutely no way that you can deny the fact that there are players, that do TAKE OVER a game...

So you're saying that a player can gain more ability because they simply are the go-to-guy down the stretch?

They only "take over" because they are allowed to. This whole clutch thing is nonsense. You don't gain any ability down the stretch and you don't lose any ability either, unless you're injured.

In example, say LeBron shoots 0-2 from the 3-point line in a game, and in the closing moments, he hits a three. Did he gain any ability to make the shot? No. There's no difference in making that shot there and making it 5 minutes earlier.

Another example: Kyrie Irving is having a big game, he's 9-9 from the FT line, and he gets fouled on a drive to the hoop while down 2. He misses a free throw, and Cleveland loses. Did he lose any ability to make the shot? Nope. People miss shots, people make shots.

As for the whole mentality thing, when you're on the court, you don't think about that. If while playing, and you are about to shoot a potentially big shot, you don't think, "I have to make this shot, or else we're gonna lose." If you do, then you probably shouldn't be on the floor. Basketball players don't think, they play.

[BluFu]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

They need to take momentum completely out of the game as well. Momentum isn't real. It's a superstitious human construct. The only thing that consecutive shots or good plays in a row can affect is the psychology of the individual and the team.

momentum isn't real?? you can say that momentum isn't as big as it's represented in the game but to say it isn't real?! wow. did you watch the miami vs celtics game?(22 game win streak). or the miami vs cavs game? (24 win streak). these are the only recent games that come to mind right now but in short, ALL comebacks are based on momentum. momentum is continually swinging throughout(most) games; it doesn't have to be 20-0 runs.

and your second point: that's what momentum is. when a team starts making a comeback on you, you start to panic and lose focus. (generally)

At least, momentum should be optional
That's fine, but we shouldn't be forced to play that way.

this.

[mango_prom]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

momentum isn't real?? you can say that momentum isn't as big as it's represented in the game but to say it isn't real?! wow. did you watch the miami vs celtics game?(22 game win streak). or the miami vs cavs game? (24 win streak). these are the only recent games that come to mind right now but in short, ALL comebacks are based on momentum. momentum is continually swinging throughout(most) games; it doesn't have to be 20-0 runs.

and your second point: that's what momentum is. when a team starts making a comeback on you, you start to panic and lose focus. (generally)

I disagree, comebacks are mainly based on one team scoring more points than their opponent. Why do we need a special something called "momentum" to explain that?

How would you define "momentum" What is it and how can you distinguish
a)overperforming
b)players performing well because they're pro athletes
c)momentum swing
d)missing shots because, well players miss shots?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

I can't believe we now have to listen to the uber:hardcore argue there's no thing as momentum, as players stepping up in key situations, etc. Guess in real life there's no such thing as getting a boost from the home field/court, etc. Everything doesn't need to be broken down to some mathmatical certainty. IT'S A #@%@!! VIDEOGAME.

I'm not an NBA Live fan but even I'm pulling for their return so they can deliver this magical game some of you think they will bring.

This is 2K's FIRST YEAR trying to implement signature skills. You'd think they'd have earned at least a *little* leeway in being able to build on it, instead of some of you constantly assuming the worst/shoot something down before it's even started. They've managed to build the game into the multi-million+ seller it is; I choose to trust their judgement.

[BluFu]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

I disagree, comebacks are mainly based on one team scoring more points than their opponent. Why do we need a special something called "momentum" to explain that?

How would you define "momentum" What is it and how can you distinguish
a)overperforming
b)players performing well because they're pro athletes
c)momentum swing
d)missing shots because, well players miss shots?

a) this (and underperforming)
b) this
c) this
d) this

i'm not being rude but have you ever played basketball? like with an actual team? if so, have you ever had a run or had an opponent comeback against you? it messes up your mentality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avJmMXkRDJc

(lac vs grizz)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Zs8jI1ryo

(heat vs cavs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJGCHrtwRWI

(kings vs sac)

momentum is real, just exaggerated in 2k13.

[mango_prom]

Re: Anybody notice ESPN's traits on thier page? Better than 2ks Sig skills.

a) this (and underperforming)
b) this
c) this
d) this

i'm not being rude but have you ever played basketball? like with an actual team? if so, have you ever had a run or had an opponent comeback against you? it messes up your mentality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avJmMXkRDJc

(lac vs grizz)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Zs8jI1ryo

(heat vs cavs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJGCHrtwRWI

(kings vs sac)

momentum is real, just exaggerated in 2k13.

First of all, I play organized basketball, but that's not the point since it's impossible to compare anything we might experience during the game to world class level athletes.
Now, maybe I've missed your point, so it would be nice if you could rephrase what "momentum" means in your opinion and which role it should play in future 2k games.

In my opinion, "momentum" is not directly related to players being more likely to hit/miss shots, but more about influencing decisions on both ends of the floor contributing to different outcomes. For example good/bad shot selection due to panicking after your opponent hits conecutive 3s or missing rotations on D.

One example is the Mavs comeback in game 2 against the Heat. Neither did Lebron/Wade lose any skill to make shots in the 4th quarter, nor was there an ability boost to the Mavs roster leading to the comeback. Instead, the Heat were lazy after Wade hit the 3, and when the Mavs started to hit shots, they went into panic mode and made stupid decisions. Lebron and Wade took bad shots, that's it. Still, if they make of these hero 3s, it's over. Their abilities did not magically disappear just because they didn't hit impossible shots.
So talking about 2k, what about tying "momentum" to certain tendencies instead of ratings? Inexperienced players could panic in high pressure situations, for example by overplaying on D, taking desperation shots or overdribbling.

But the whole idea of artificially changing player ratings to force comebacks and close games is something I would prefer to be optional. If some gamers like it that way, fine. But why not give us the possibility to play without it?