Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

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  • sreckless
    Rookie
    • Mar 2012
    • 342

    #76
    Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

    I feel like I need more time with the game to tell what's going on, but something feels different about shooting this year.

    Either the release feedback is off, or good releases don't sync up with good shots, or there are secret ratings and/or the momentum system that works to put a lid on the basket for some shooters. My best guess is the last, but I don't really know.

    I am getting blasted out in online games where the other user just stands back and concedes a wide open jumper, then races down to their end off the miss and does a bull rush to the rim.

    Maybe my defense sucks (probably) and my team sucks (probably), but even so I am feeling a different risk/reward balance than in previous 2K versions.
    Last edited by sreckless; 10-11-2013, 12:25 PM.

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    • blaza
      Rookie
      • Jul 2004
      • 76

      #77
      Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

      Originally posted by sreckless
      I feel like I need more time with the game to tell what's going on, but something feels different about shooting this year.

      Either the release feedback is off, or good releases don't sync up with good shots, or there are secret ratings and/or the momentum system that works to put a lid on the basket for some shooters. My best guess is the last, but I don't really know.

      I am getting blasted out in online games where the other user just stands back and concedes a wide open jumper, then races down to their end off the miss and does a bull rush to the rim.

      Maybe my defense sucks (probably) and my team sucks (probably), but even so I am feeling a different risk/reward balance than in previous 2K versions.

      Do you shoot jumpers with the button or stick? Totally a wild guess by me, but I'm starting to feel like there is a slight penalty for shooting with the button vs. the stick. I've seen way more A+ shots miss with the button so far. Maybe it's just me.
      XBL: Blaza Rep

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      • Skopin
        Banned
        • Aug 2010
        • 307

        #78
        Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

        Originally posted by stillfeelme
        Skopin,

        I don't see how it can be any more skill based. All 2K can do is increase difficulty of shot stick feedback relates to ratings. Elite was favoring stick skills over realistic skill of the player just narrow the aiming window. 2K is a balance of shot release timing vs. real life player stats much more in line with reality, it also enables them to allow multiple ways to control different types of shots. There is no aiming while using a button so you alienate users who like to use the button.
        I'm not saying there is a right or wrong way to do it. All I am saying is that the way it is now, it's luck of the draw. You can increase the odds by shooting with a player that has good ratings, but it is still 100% random whether it will go in or not.

        Elite was favoring skill for both release timing and aiming, which increased or decreased based on the player's rating. This was more realistic in theory. The ratings shouldn't determine whether a shot hits or misses; rather, it should determine how difficult it is to make the shot.

        Again, I'm not saying either way is right or wrong. There are more factors that go into a shot than what is possible to replicate on a controller. But there is always room to improve and make it closer to real life. The things that NBA Elite was trying to address were exactly the issues that I've had with basketball games since I started playing them again six years ago.

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        • sreckless
          Rookie
          • Mar 2012
          • 342

          #79
          Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

          Originally posted by blaza
          Do you shoot jumpers with the button or stick? Totally a wild guess by me, but I'm starting to feel like there is a slight penalty for shooting with the button vs. the stick. I've seen way more A+ shots miss with the button so far. Maybe it's just me.
          I always shoot with the stick, so that's not it for me. You might still be on to something.

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          • iimrampage28
            Rookie
            • Aug 2012
            • 89

            #80
            Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

            For the people saying that too many threes are still being made....what game are you guys playing? And same for the people saying shooting is perfect I don't get it. The increase in misses for just JUMPSHOTS period(not just threes) in this game make me not even want to shoot anymore.

            And yes the release feedback is definitely off if you check the blue circle under your feet when you shoot vs the grade of the shot and release.

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            • Streaky McFloorburn
              Rookie
              • Aug 2012
              • 279

              #81
              Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

              Originally posted by Pokes404

              Maybe 2K should consider taking out the grade rating and literally put the percentage chance you have of the shot going in. Say there's a player that even with a wide-open shot, and a perfect release, he only has a max chance of 55% of making a shot. Well, instead of having "Excellent Release: A+ Rating," you have "Perfect Release: 55% Probability." Now, instead of the player being mad because their "perfect" shot didn't go in, they're thinking, "Well, it was basically only a 50/50 chance to begin with."
              Already liked this post, but just wanted to give extra thought to the idea. As is pointed out in the quoted text, it would create more realistic expectations for new players and series veterans alike.

              It would also aid in troubleshooting, because while percentages (other than 100 or 0) still allow room for error, they're less open to interpretation. Missing 5 straight 'grade A' shots feels wrong, but missing 5 straight 60+% shots (if it happened semi-regularly) would suggest pretty strongly that something is wrong with the shot success logic. The same benefit would apply for slider tuning, etc. - less time would need to be spent testing to figure out whether the percentages met each individual's definition of 'sim'.

              I think though, that it may need to be even more clear that the system as it stands is grading our application of technique rather than suggesting a result. Maybe it would work better in that regard to remove the appearance of predictive feedback completely and show a simple +/- modifier. While receiving a letter grade or seeing a set percentage can create a more definite expectation of success, a +3% or -5% would let you know that your input mattered while simultaneously reinforcing that you can only out/under-perform the rating by so much.

              Ultimately, I'm with Skopin when it comes to shooting. I refuse to believe that there can't be a system that doesn't need to treat each shot as a microcosm of the shooter's entire season or career to achieve realistic percentages over those durations. The ideal option should allow for the (appropriately difficult to attain) possibilty of 100/0% odds which already exists with free throws. That's the only way to respect what it's like to perform an action with proficiency IRL, and the definition of a skill as a task that can be carried out with predetermined results.

              I'll admit (that's from the Wikipedia entry) - most dictionaries have softer/vaguer definitions of 'skill' that are already being met by the current system. But, since a videogame can't replicate all of the human factors that make those less concrete definitions appropriate, it seems more useful to consider the most rigid example. That's the one nearly every videogame adheres to (skilled player input = predictable/repeatable results) and most gamers are conditioned to expect. Not to say that people shouldn't adapt if that would truly lead to greater immersion, only that the compromise between intuitive mechanics and realistic results shouldn't be as large as it is currently.
              "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism, by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

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              • cardinalbird5
                MVP
                • Jul 2006
                • 2814

                #82
                Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                Originally posted by blaza
                Do you shoot jumpers with the button or stick? Totally a wild guess by me, but I'm starting to feel like there is a slight penalty for shooting with the button vs. the stick. I've seen way more A+ shots miss with the button so far. Maybe it's just me.
                I notice the same.

                I don't mind missing half of my A+ shots, but what drives me nuts is when my opponent takes bad shot after bad shot and shoots the same pct as me or better. I am going to try and start shooting with the stick only.

                I played a guy who was only doing pull ups and those hop step fade aways and was making every single shot, yet Curry was missing open shots all game...

                I think shooting with the button gives you a penalty.
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                • ForeverVersatile
                  Pro
                  • Jan 2011
                  • 3498

                  #83
                  Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                  I see the same difference in the feedback and the shot indicator. I'm sure it has something to do with lag. It also bothers me to see some idiot turbo up the court and hit a contested 3, but I run a play and miss a 15 footer.
                  PSN: ForeverVersatile
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                  • Sundown
                    MVP
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 3270

                    #84
                    Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                    Originally posted by Streaky McFloorburn
                    The ideal option should allow for the (appropriately difficult to attain) possibilty of 100/0% odds which already exists with free throws. That's the only way to respect what it's like to perform an action with proficiency IRL, and the definition of a skill as a task that can be carried out with predetermined results.
                    That's not ideal at all.

                    It's ridiculous to be able to shoot 100% free throws with Andris Biedrins and Dwight Howard just because you got good at timing the animation. I hit 70+% of my freethrows with Bogut regularly because I've learned his timing. That's not right or ideal. And allowing you to completely override a player's weaknesses by practice isn't "respecting how the skill is performed in real life". It's disrespecting the authenticity and representation of the that player's mechanics, skills, and mental makeup.

                    It'd also be ridiculous to be able to do the same and shoot high 3pt% with non 3 point shooters just because you were great at timing/stick skills.

                    We have NBA Jam for that kind of thing. Do not want.

                    Maybe this should be Live 14's approach for those of you guys who value the ability to get inflated results with stick mechanics over realism.

                    It sounds interesting in theory for an action video game but it's not from a realism/sim standpoint. You need realistic safeguards. I suppose you can have a more dynamic AND realistic system that can theoretically produce unlikely results but is practically impossible, but I'm not sure what the experiential benefit is other than knowing what's under the hood is a bit more elegant.

                    LIke I said, I don't mind a system that factors in more stick mechanics but still produces realistic results for the correct players on the average with few or no exceptions. But that doesn't sound like what you really want.

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                    • ForeverVersatile
                      Pro
                      • Jan 2011
                      • 3498

                      #85
                      Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                      Originally posted by Sundown
                      That's not ideal at all.

                      It's ridiculous to be able to shoot 100% free throws with Andris Biedrins and Dwight Howard just because you got good at timing the animation. I hit 70+% of my freethrows with Bogut regularly because I've learned his timing. That's not right or ideal. And allowing you to completely override a player's weaknesses by practice isn't "respecting how the skill is performed in real life". It's disrespecting the authenticity and representation of the that player's mechanics, skills, and mental makeup.

                      It'd also be ridiculous to be able to do the same and shoot high 3pt% with non 3 point shooters just because you were great at timing/stick skills.

                      We have NBA Jam for that kind of thing. Do not want.

                      Maybe this should be Live 14's approach for those of you guys who value the ability to get inflated results with stick mechanics over realism.

                      It sounds interesting in theory for an action video game but it's not from a realism/sim standpoint. You need realistic safeguards. I suppose you can have a more dynamic AND realistic system that can theoretically produce unlikely results but is practically impossible, but I'm not sure what the experiential benefit is other than knowing what's under the hood is a bit more elegant.

                      LIke I said, I don't mind a system that factors in more stick mechanics but still produces realistic results for the correct players on the average with few or no exceptions. But that doesn't sound like what you really want.
                      Everything isn't realistic or correct as is. I have yet to see bad FT shooter miss online
                      Last edited by ForeverVersatile; 10-11-2013, 07:16 PM.
                      PSN: ForeverVersatile
                      Xbox Live: TheBluprint09

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                      • Ramboooo
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 695

                        #86
                        Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                        Getting sick of missing WIDE OPEN shots on a consistent basis with my grade A outside shooter who has 5 shooting signatures and having good timing on the shot. This is getting ridiculous. I don't want 2K13 levels back but we should be REWARDED for OPEN shots. There's NOTHING realistic about CLANKING wide open 3's over and over. If this is how next gen is going to be I'll wait on purchasing it, I don't care how pretty it looks.

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                        • fidelityny
                          Rookie
                          • Aug 2013
                          • 137

                          #87
                          Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                          I find it funny that, although I struggled sometimes, my Center in 2K13 with a max 70-75 3 Point Shot with Corner Specialist is more consistent than my SF in 2K14. It has a max 90 3 Point Shot, with multiple shooting Sig Skills and I haven't made no more than 3-3 Point Shots in a row. Not even shooting Excellent A+ shots in Freestyle Practice for 30 mins helps.

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                          • Jrocc23
                            MVP
                            • May 2010
                            • 3207

                            #88
                            Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                            Didn't know so many people was having this problem. It doesn't make sense I miss wide open mid range and three point shots. 2K11 had the balance perfect imo, they should go back to that.


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                            • iimrampage28
                              Rookie
                              • Aug 2012
                              • 89

                              #89
                              Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                              2k11 had the open shot problem also but it was never this bad


                              Sent from my 25th ranked iPad using Tapatalk
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                              Los Angeles Lakers | New Orleans Saints | Boston Red Sox | Jackson State Tigers

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                              • Jrocc23
                                MVP
                                • May 2010
                                • 3207

                                #90
                                Re: Why do I keep missing Open Three's.

                                Originally posted by iimrampage28
                                2k11 had the open shot problem also but it was never this bad


                                Sent from my 25th ranked iPad using Tapatalk
                                I've never had a problem w/ 2K11's shooting. Maybe it was a lot tougher to hit open 3's from the top of the arc, but overall it was pretty balanced to me.


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                                HATE LOSING MORE THAN I LOVE WINNING!

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