Re: Most idiotic online game ever
I cannot disagree more with most of this post.
1. Everyone has a right to complain about the mode they play, online or offline. ESPECIALLY if it's sim players what just want to be rewarded for sim play online.
These folks should be seen as allies, not as enemies out to ruin your favorite modes.
They should have our support, not scapegoated for things wrong with your game.
2. We are not helping 2K or the gaming community by shouting down their complaints with the usual catch phrases: "cheesers will always exist", "stop playing randoms", and "just play offline". While playing with other sim players is helpful advice, it is NOT a permanent solution, nor does it excuse the gameplay mechanics from criticism. The fact that online favors cheesing indicates that the core mechanics are flawed, or at least the current settings are.
3. Cheesers are excellent at ferretting out gameplay flaws. They expose core issues with the game. When a cheeser is successful, it indicates that the core gameplay design is actually NOT robust and prone to abuse. 2K's response (if they care about robust head to head gameplay), should be to fix these exploits as they are found.
Instead of accepting that cheese will always exist, one should ask WHY a tactic works that doesn't in real life. Then they should think about how factors that prevent the success of such behaviors should be implemented into the core SIMULATION of the game. This is actually what 2K does year around. The issue is that once they release a product, new exploits are not addressed quickly or vigilantly. That's why I believe 2K should hire a QA team of testers who play as skilled cheesers to catch as many exploits as possible before shipping. They should continue to do this throughout the year and release fixes as patches or settings tweaks to the released product. Yes, as one loophole is closed, cheesers will find another-- but it takes time to find the less obvious ones, which means less cheese gameplay in the interim, and as 2K fixes flaws and imbalances, they are actually building a more robust simulation for the future. The game will necessarily become less cheesy and more simulation over time, in every mode.
4. The online and offline games are not actually separate games. It is one game with the same core mechanics, but with (sometimes) different settings and with the offline AI programmed to emulate a capable human player. However, the same flaws in the core gameplay (or settings) still exist. We should not be satisfied with this.
The reason the AI sometimes plays more "sim" is because it is programmed to NOT take advantage of existing exploits in the game-- and this isn't even always true. 2K14's All-Star Sim AI has Attack The Paint turned up too high. The AI ball handler tries to burrow into the paint incessantly. This immediately exposes several flaws in the game's mechanics and out of the box settings:
Sliippery on-ball defense.
RS Hands up is ineffective, and leaves you open to committing fouls.
RS Hands up is too slow on manual contest.
Slow unathletic bigs have difficulty blocking even when their rating is high.
Contested layups go in too often.
Dribbling in paint does not significantly increase likelihood of the loss of handles.
Other flaws encountered in games vs. CPU:
Shot logic doesn't seem to favor open shots much over contested ones (jury is out on this).
Too many offensive rebounds.
In essence, the default Sim All-Star settings program the AI to emulate a low-level cheeser. Even the AI's shot selection is similar to a typical cheeser.
So what happens when we take these problems online? All of them are exacerbated, EXACTLY what we'd expect. This should surprise no one. The latest complaints about cheesing mirror the complaints about playing against the CPU, but much worse.
Now if we dial the AI aggressiveness back down, decrease Attack The Basket, the AI suddenly plays a real sim game of basketball. What was the difference? We are forcing the AI to play as if it was not aware of the exploits and imbalances that exist in game. We are dumbing it down to ignore what actually works in order to sustain the illusion that the game mechanics (or settings) are fine. When we as human players do this sort of thing online, we call it "not really wanting to win", and when we do it with like minded players, we call it "sim play".
Now if we also increase layup defense, decrease inside shot attempts, and increase other shots taken, what happens? The AI is actually playing in a way that's most effective given the new defensive settings. The AI's tactics are more optimal for these conditions. It is now playing real ball for the right reasons.
Da Czar says to play basketball, not videogames-- but why play basketball when playing it as a video game is generally easier and more successful with little investment in understanding the sport? We should constantly fight for both online and offline to play more realistic-- especially when online exposes the gameplay to its core essentials.
I am of the opinion that games with a strong head to head component should be designed with mechanics to ensure such play is robust, balanced, and realistic (if simulation is the goal), This definitely applies to 2K, because after all, basketball, in its true form, is a head to head sport against other think humans. 2K should therefore play like real basketball online (and off) as well.
From there, the AI should be constructed to emulate humans and real NBA teams playing the game of basketball. The AI should also receive advantages and tweaks to keep it competitive with a human player within reason and without breaking the illusion.
Anyway, let's not make SIM-Quickmatch players the red-headed stepchild of the sim community, ESPECIALLY when they brave the unceasing gauntlet of cheesing randoms. They are essentially at the forefront of 2K testing and experience the game in its most exposed, raw form-- online against randoms. We should all strive to have 2K basketball play like real basketball, ESPECIALLY with two human players involved.
I cannot disagree more with most of this post.
1. Everyone has a right to complain about the mode they play, online or offline. ESPECIALLY if it's sim players what just want to be rewarded for sim play online.
These folks should be seen as allies, not as enemies out to ruin your favorite modes.
They should have our support, not scapegoated for things wrong with your game.
2. We are not helping 2K or the gaming community by shouting down their complaints with the usual catch phrases: "cheesers will always exist", "stop playing randoms", and "just play offline". While playing with other sim players is helpful advice, it is NOT a permanent solution, nor does it excuse the gameplay mechanics from criticism. The fact that online favors cheesing indicates that the core mechanics are flawed, or at least the current settings are.
3. Cheesers are excellent at ferretting out gameplay flaws. They expose core issues with the game. When a cheeser is successful, it indicates that the core gameplay design is actually NOT robust and prone to abuse. 2K's response (if they care about robust head to head gameplay), should be to fix these exploits as they are found.
Instead of accepting that cheese will always exist, one should ask WHY a tactic works that doesn't in real life. Then they should think about how factors that prevent the success of such behaviors should be implemented into the core SIMULATION of the game. This is actually what 2K does year around. The issue is that once they release a product, new exploits are not addressed quickly or vigilantly. That's why I believe 2K should hire a QA team of testers who play as skilled cheesers to catch as many exploits as possible before shipping. They should continue to do this throughout the year and release fixes as patches or settings tweaks to the released product. Yes, as one loophole is closed, cheesers will find another-- but it takes time to find the less obvious ones, which means less cheese gameplay in the interim, and as 2K fixes flaws and imbalances, they are actually building a more robust simulation for the future. The game will necessarily become less cheesy and more simulation over time, in every mode.
4. The online and offline games are not actually separate games. It is one game with the same core mechanics, but with (sometimes) different settings and with the offline AI programmed to emulate a capable human player. However, the same flaws in the core gameplay (or settings) still exist. We should not be satisfied with this.
The reason the AI sometimes plays more "sim" is because it is programmed to NOT take advantage of existing exploits in the game-- and this isn't even always true. 2K14's All-Star Sim AI has Attack The Paint turned up too high. The AI ball handler tries to burrow into the paint incessantly. This immediately exposes several flaws in the game's mechanics and out of the box settings:
Sliippery on-ball defense.
RS Hands up is ineffective, and leaves you open to committing fouls.
RS Hands up is too slow on manual contest.
Slow unathletic bigs have difficulty blocking even when their rating is high.
Contested layups go in too often.
Dribbling in paint does not significantly increase likelihood of the loss of handles.
Other flaws encountered in games vs. CPU:
Shot logic doesn't seem to favor open shots much over contested ones (jury is out on this).
Too many offensive rebounds.
In essence, the default Sim All-Star settings program the AI to emulate a low-level cheeser. Even the AI's shot selection is similar to a typical cheeser.
So what happens when we take these problems online? All of them are exacerbated, EXACTLY what we'd expect. This should surprise no one. The latest complaints about cheesing mirror the complaints about playing against the CPU, but much worse.
Now if we dial the AI aggressiveness back down, decrease Attack The Basket, the AI suddenly plays a real sim game of basketball. What was the difference? We are forcing the AI to play as if it was not aware of the exploits and imbalances that exist in game. We are dumbing it down to ignore what actually works in order to sustain the illusion that the game mechanics (or settings) are fine. When we as human players do this sort of thing online, we call it "not really wanting to win", and when we do it with like minded players, we call it "sim play".
Now if we also increase layup defense, decrease inside shot attempts, and increase other shots taken, what happens? The AI is actually playing in a way that's most effective given the new defensive settings. The AI's tactics are more optimal for these conditions. It is now playing real ball for the right reasons.
Da Czar says to play basketball, not videogames-- but why play basketball when playing it as a video game is generally easier and more successful with little investment in understanding the sport? We should constantly fight for both online and offline to play more realistic-- especially when online exposes the gameplay to its core essentials.
I am of the opinion that games with a strong head to head component should be designed with mechanics to ensure such play is robust, balanced, and realistic (if simulation is the goal), This definitely applies to 2K, because after all, basketball, in its true form, is a head to head sport against other think humans. 2K should therefore play like real basketball online (and off) as well.
From there, the AI should be constructed to emulate humans and real NBA teams playing the game of basketball. The AI should also receive advantages and tweaks to keep it competitive with a human player within reason and without breaking the illusion.
Anyway, let's not make SIM-Quickmatch players the red-headed stepchild of the sim community, ESPECIALLY when they brave the unceasing gauntlet of cheesing randoms. They are essentially at the forefront of 2K testing and experience the game in its most exposed, raw form-- online against randoms. We should all strive to have 2K basketball play like real basketball, ESPECIALLY with two human players involved.
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