NBA Live needs to be fixed

[FORMULA316]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

I just found this statement funny for some reason. They have no responsibility to release any patches or updates of any kind. None at all.

This is what a lot of gamers don't understand about the business side of game development. You pay money for the released product, but no extra fees for maintenence and upkeep. Therefore, any patch work that gets done for a game like this is purely volunteer work for no pay from the company perspective.

Developing a patch for any piece of software is a big deal. You have to pool resources and allocate man-hours for the time needed. This includes not only to developers, but for Q/A as well, because they need to make sure the fix didn't break anything else, especially something major. With performance optimizations like what you're requesting, theres even more danger of introducing new problems such as intermittent crashes, etc. I don't think you would be too happy if a game loaded twice as fast, but there was a higher chance of your system locking up before you reach the 4th quarter. You wouldn't be willing to accept such a tradeoff, I'm sure. I haven't even mentioned the approval process for patches with the system manufacturers either, what a pain.

Complain all you want, but there are no obligations for them to fix anything here. Sometimes, its necessary to look onto the other side of the fence once in a while. Should they resolve some of these issues through a patch? Yea, of course, as long as it doesnt break the game, its the right thing to do. Is it mandatory for them to fix it? Heck no.

I understand business, and I understand the need for properly deploying resources. I also understand and appreciate the value of satisfying today's buyer who, no surprise is also tomorrow's buyer.

Madden 2008 to date has sold 10% less compared to 07. On the PS2, it has taken a 48% drop in sales. Now the PS2 figure certainly plays a part, with consumers migrating to Next-Gen but the PS2 still sells.
<O
Maybe EA (and others) are not obliged to improve their software with post-release patches, but anything to improve today’s gaming experience goes a long way to ensuring future business.

[Oz33]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

hey Joel, I hope you realize I was defending you

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

hey Joel, I hope you realize I was defending you

Sorry, I didn't. I sensed you were being sarcastic!! Sorry about that. I'll edit.

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

I understand business, and I understand the need for properly deploying resources. I also understand and appreciate the value of satisfying today's buyer who, no surprise is also tomorrow's buyer.

Madden 2008 to date has sold 10% less compared to 07. On the PS2, it has taken a 48% drop in sales. Now the PS2 figure certainly plays a part, with consumers migrating to Next-Gen but the PS2 still sells.
<O
Maybe EA (and others) are not obliged to improve their software with post-release patches, but anything to improve today’s gaming experience goes a long way to ensuring future business.

Now that is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you sir.

[Computalover]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

oh praise da lawd!! there is a fix coming out..

its called NBA LIVE 09.. LMAO!!

[stephensonmc]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Thanks for showing you actually care and presenting it in an appropriate manner. My problems started day 3 into the game, when I made the following changes:

Changed team playbooks
Changed slider settings
Made changes to various player ratings
Changed the quarter length to 8 minutes and then back to 7
Changed to all star level and then back to starter

I can't really narrow it down anymore than that. I started noticing the long load times immediately after I made these changes and I made these changes all at once, so I can't put my finger on any one thing that caused the problem. It's just my opinion, but from reading other posts around here, it seems the problem starts after making suttle changes, either to the playbooks, rosters or settings.

I've tried erasing my profile, as well as all NBA Live 08 material on my hard drive and even then, the problem continues. I've lost hope that it will be fixed and have no choice to accept the fact that I have to wait a minimum 5-10 minutes of trivia questions, just to play one game. Oh, and forget about playing online, it does the same thing there. By the time my game loads, my opponent has gotten tired of waiting and left the game. How about a refund?

Do you have a memory card? Could you try saving the files for LIVE onto a Memory Card and then trying the game without using your files? Just trying to pinpoint this.

[yuckmoufjonez]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

It is a good post, he is obviously knowledgable in regards to this issue. However, I still feel it is EA's responsibility to fix this specific problem. Nothing you say will make me feel differently about that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting they will actually take the time to go through all the procedures you speak of, because it seems like so much work, and god knows, EA doesn't want to apply any post release work into any other game besides Madden football.

I still love the game the way it is, I'm just venting my frustrations with the little things. You make it seem like a ton of work has to be put fourth to get a patch through, and you may be right. But having said that, NBA Live is yet to see 1 patch, when Madden football has seen several. I believe 2K7 put through a couple patches last year as well. EA pays little attention to any game besides its bread winner, Madden. They can do that because EA is EA and EA has millions of customers who buy anything with the logo "EA" attached.

P.S. Sonic, while you talk a good game and made some great points, as far as I'm concerned, you shot yourself in the foot by referring to my thread as "your little thread" as if you feel my opinion is below you. You applied your input to this "Little thread" several times, on your own accord. If its below you to continue replying, than don't. It's fine by me, as its clear you have your opinion and I have mine.

Joel, I totally agree with what you say, and I feel the exact same way.

Moreover, the points made by Sonic (very eloquent) but so ridiculous. No pun intended Sonic!

First and foremost, knowing that you (Sonic) worked or works in software dev and myself having been in and out of the project management and developing side understands some very important criteria.

First, Customer Base... Doesn't matter how many man hours you work, how much i have to keep you here as a developer... I pay you salary, and you work and fix the Priorities we have set aside for the game, program, etc. As a project manager we understand only One philosphy and that is your product is only as good as the customers that buy it! Period! That is the first and last item of interest that goes into the genesis of the dev cycle and the exodus of it... Will this product keep our current base, and will this product draw in the competitors constituents. In this case, EA has a ton of overhead protecting the NBA Live franchise which is why they have been able to build 2 new engines from the ground up since the next gen launch (supposedly) So by this (NBA Live 08) being another new & improved, stable, alot more open and free engine, is just a testament to how "deep" the pockets are for this Design team, and really shows how much money they have to support the success of this title. They are in no way ready to scrap Live and coup the losses after these far less than profitable 6 years... It is amazing that this title still stands as this were another companies division it would not exist.

I had to say all of that to get to my next point which "Dev Cycles"

I'm not going to get into the meat and potatoes of it and obviously Sonic has never worked on a major title or a project with a few millions floating around. (no pun intended again) But anyone whose been in this industry for 2 weeks knows that the Dev plan, and the execution of it means a new project manager next year or the success of the title and franchise that year.

This field is so cutthroat there is no room for errors... Period! There is always someone who they are willing to pay less money and grind programmers into the wee hours of the night, for losing major money on a project (again shows how much EA has in bankroll)

Now a dev cycle is broken up into sections, and one of those sections allows ample time, not just for QA and beta testing, but also patching and bug fixes.... With that being said, there is usually a 3 to 4 month sleep period from one dev cycle to the next... So for sonic to say that EA would have to pull programmers off of 09 is ridiculous.. Its almost borderline ********! (no pun) The dev cycle hasnt even started yet! The budget that gets submitted has these type of man hours allocated in the budget report for these and other minor and mid level problems, like those we are experiencing right now....

I dont know what company you work for, what they make, or how much product they move, but one thing is for sure Sonic, but they obviously aren't doing legitimate business or they have you guys shaving and half baking so you can patch later which is totally unacceptable and definitely unethical and unlawful if that is indeed what they tell you guys thats company policy, or core values, or "business as usual".

EA does have an obligation to fix a faulty product as does any software dev.... And believe me, they will... Some of the things omitted by the dev team like the editing features, etc. are just that... Omissions.... Having the load time that takes 10 minutes to boot up because of bad code or 'string' is a problem... Any Project Mgr's name is as good as the software he puts out, and that being said, this is a definite bug that any Lead designer, programmer, Proj Mgr, would want to eliminate. This is their life, this is their work, and for you to come hear and throw around the "they aren't obligated" is downright ludicrous. I take offense that you would feel that way as a consumer, and I definitely am offended that you would announce proudly that you work in "MY" industry, and voice any gaming community that your company, (because you can only refer to your own experiences, especially after reading your posts Sonic) develops half baked software which is the type of CRAP that has plagued this industry for as long as I can remember... Comments like these are putrid and so far off base to how a Management member of a company thinks and feels (a reputable company anyway) and for a programmer who doesn't feel obligated to release a finished product.

POWER TO THE GAMERS

[Mintsa]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Hey Steph.....


How much longer until we get some 5 on 5 online action for live 08 on the ps3 or 360 ???

I'm really anxious to see how it turns out!

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Do you have a memory card? Could you try saving the files for LIVE onto a Memory Card and then trying the game without using your files? Just trying to pinpoint this.

I do have a memory card, and I forgot to mention in my previous post that I transferred my hard drive memory onto my memory card, then erased all Live 08 files on my hard drive. It did nothing. I will try everything again, so long as you pledge to stick with me on this. I'd hate to go through everything again, and then not hear from you.

Something else of interest, which started at the same time my loading problem started....When I access the "My live profile" tab from the main menu, I get this message:

"Your storage device hard drive has the maximum number of saves permitted for settings. You will need to overwrite existing content to be able to save. Are you sure you want to continue?". I have 9.6 giga bytes of memory on my hard drive, I'm not even close to running out of space. Let me know what you think, please.

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Hey Steph.....


How much longer until we get some 5 on 5 online action for live 08 on the ps3 or 360 ???

I'm really anxious to see how it turns out!

Minsta, I'm sure you're eager about this, but this is not the forum for you to be asking that question. Please respect this thread and apply only comments that are relevant to the topic at hand. I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Joel, I totally agree with what you say, and I feel the exact same way.

Moreover, the points made by Sonic (very eloquent) but so ridiculous. No pun intended Sonic!

First and foremost, knowing that you (Sonic) worked or works in software dev and myself having been in and out of the project management and developing side understands some very important criteria.

First, Customer Base... Doesn't matter how many man hours you work, how much i have to keep you here as a developer... I pay you salary, and you work and fix the Priorities we have set aside for the game, program, etc. As a project manager we understand only One philosphy and that is your product is only as good as the customers that buy it! Period! That is the first and last item of interest that goes into the genesis of the dev cycle and the exodus of it... Will this product keep our current base, and will this product draw in the competitors constituents. In this case, EA has a ton of overhead protecting the NBA Live franchise which is why they have been able to build 2 new engines from the ground up since the next gen launch (supposedly) So by this (NBA Live 08) being another new & improved, stable, alot more open and free engine, is just a testament to how "deep" the pockets are for this Design team, and really shows how much money they have to support the success of this title. They are in no way ready to scrap Live and coup the losses after these far less than profitable 6 years... It is amazing that this title still stands as this were another companies division it would not exist.

I had to say all of that to get to my next point which "Dev Cycles"

I'm not going to get into the meat and potatoes of it and obviously Sonic has never worked on a major title or a project with a few millions floating around. (no pun intended again) But anyone whose been in this industry for 2 weeks knows that the Dev plan, and the execution of it means a new project manager next year or the success of the title and franchise that year.

This field is so cutthroat there is no room for errors... Period! There is always someone who they are willing to pay less money and grind programmers into the wee hours of the night, for losing major money on a project (again shows how much EA has in bankroll)

Now a dev cycle is broken up into sections, and one of those sections allows ample time, not just for QA and beta testing, but also patching and bug fixes.... With that being said, there is usually a 3 to 4 month sleep period from one dev cycle to the next... So for sonic to say that EA would have to pull programmers off of 09 is ridiculous.. Its almost borderline ********! (no pun) The dev cycle hasnt even started yet! The budget that gets submitted has these type of man hours included in the budget report for this very problem that we are experiencing right now....

I dont know what company you work for, what they make, or how much product they move, but one thing is for sure Sonic, you have no CLUE!

EA does have an obligation to fix a faulty product as does any software dev.... And believe me, they will... Some of the things omitted by the dev team like the editing features, etc. are just that... Omissions.... Having the load time that takes 10 minutes to boot up because of bad code or 'string' is a problem... Any Project Mgr's name is as good as the software he puts out, and that being said, this is a definite bug that any Lead designer, programmer, Proj Mgr, would want to eliminate. This is their life, this is their work, and for you to come hear and throw around the "they aren't obligated" is downright ludicrous. I take offense that you would feel that way as a consumer, and I definitely am offended that you would announce proudly that you work in "MY" industry, and voice any gaming community that your company, (because you can only refer to your own experiences, especially after reading your posts Sonic) develops half baked software which is the type of CRAP that has plagued this industry for as long as I can remember... Comments like these are putrid and so far off base to how a Management member of a company thinks and feels (a reputable company anyway) and for a programmer who doesn't feel obligated to release a finished product.

POWER TO THE GAMERS

Now that is one of the most informative posts I have ever read. Thank you very much for your input and understanding.

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Stephensonmc,

Okay, I transferred all Live 08 files from my hard drive, onto my memory stick. I then erased all Live 08 files from my hard drive and even cleared my xbox 360 cache. I started up a game and nothing has changed. To be specific, I'm looking at a 22 second load time (always 22 seconds), just to get into the practice gym. As far as actually loading a game, it takes a minimum 5 minutes at least, every game.

I loaded up the demo version of Live 08 and had no load problems at all.

[SonicMage]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

P.S. Sonic, while you talk a good game and made some great points, as far as I'm concerned, you shot yourself in the foot by referring to my thread as "your little thread" as if you feel my opinion is below you. You applied your input to this "Little thread" several times, on your own accord. If its below you to continue replying, than don't. It's fine by me, as its clear you have your opinion and I have mine.

Don't take any offense, because I didn't mean for it to sound condescending. If it did seem that way, I apologize. I meant your thread was "little" as in size, not scope, because I realized my comments may introduce a whole slew of reactions from people that make this thread go off on a tangent.

I understand your frustrations, and I would be frustrated too in your position. From what you've described, the response from EA Q/A that they have been unable to reproduce this issue, and that this has only affected a small group of people, it sounds to me like it could be a hardware issue, and thats the first place I would look. What I mean is, you may have received a disk from a bad batch during the manufacturing process. Have you tried using a second NBA Live disk to see if that works? You should contact EA Support and see if they'll ship you a replacement disk that you can try out. If that still doesn't work, then you probably have something corrupted in your system, like your memory card or hard disk, though your statement that you've tried unloading all Live related content steers me away from that assessment. I would hope for case A rather than case B if I were you, because there's a chance that a corrupted memory file could mean that this is something that EA can only fix through a software update, like you feared.

[joel0078]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Don't take any offense, because I didn't mean for it to sound condescending. If it did seem that way, I apologize. I meant your thread was "little" as in size, not scope, because I realized my comments may introduce a whole slew of reactions from people that make this thread go off on a tangent.

I understand your frustrations, and I would be frustrated too in your position. From what you've described, the response from EA Q/A that they have been unable to reproduce this issue, and that this has only affected a small group of people, it sounds to me like it could be a hardware issue, and thats the first place I would look. What I mean is, you may have received a disk from a bad batch during the manufacturing process. Have you tried using a second NBA Live disk to see if that works? You should contact EA Support and see if they'll ship you a replacement disk that you can try out. If that still doesn't work, then you probably have something corrupted in your system, like your memory card or hard disk, though your statement that you've tried unloading all Live related content steers me away from that assessment. I would hope for case A rather than case B if I were you, because there's a chance that a corrupted memory file could mean that this is something that EA can only fix through a software update, like you feared.

Apology accepted. Obviously its tough to decipher what is sarcasim and what is not, online.

[SonicMage]

Re: NBA Live needs to be fixed

Joel, I totally agree with what you say, and I feel the exact same way.

Moreover, the points made by Sonic (very eloquent) but so ridiculous. No pun intended Sonic!

First and foremost, knowing that you (Sonic) worked or works in software dev and myself having been in and out of the project management and developing side understands some very important criteria.

First, Customer Base... Doesn't matter how many man hours you work, how much i have to keep you here as a developer... I pay you salary, and you work and fix the Priorities we have set aside for the game, program, etc. As a project manager we understand only One philosphy and that is your product is only as good as the customers that buy it! Period! That is the first and last item of interest that goes into the genesis of the dev cycle and the exodus of it... Will this product keep our current base, and will this product draw in the competitors constituents. In this case, EA has a ton of overhead protecting the NBA Live franchise which is why they have been able to build 2 new engines from the ground up since the next gen launch (supposedly) So by this (NBA Live 08) being another new & improved, stable, alot more open and free engine, is just a testament to how "deep" the pockets are for this Design team, and really shows how much money they have to support the success of this title. They are in no way ready to scrap Live and coup the losses after these far less than profitable 6 years... It is amazing that this title still stands as this were another companies division it would not exist.

I had to say all of that to get to my next point which "Dev Cycles"

I'm not going to get into the meat and potatoes of it and obviously Sonic has never worked on a major title or a project with a few millions floating around. (no pun intended again) But anyone whose been in this industry for 2 weeks knows that the Dev plan, and the execution of it means a new project manager next year or the success of the title and franchise that year.

This field is so cutthroat there is no room for errors... Period! There is always someone who they are willing to pay less money and grind programmers into the wee hours of the night, for losing major money on a project (again shows how much EA has in bankroll)

Now a dev cycle is broken up into sections, and one of those sections allows ample time, not just for QA and beta testing, but also patching and bug fixes.... With that being said, there is usually a 3 to 4 month sleep period from one dev cycle to the next... So for sonic to say that EA would have to pull programmers off of 09 is ridiculous.. Its almost borderline ********! (no pun) The dev cycle hasnt even started yet! The budget that gets submitted has these type of man hours included in the budget report for this very problem that we are experiencing right now....

I dont know what company you work for, what they make, or how much product they move, but one thing is for sure Sonic, you have no CLUE!

EA does have an obligation to fix a faulty product as does any software dev.... And believe me, they will... Some of the things omitted by the dev team like the editing features, etc. are just that... Omissions.... Having the load time that takes 10 minutes to boot up because of bad code or 'string' is a problem... Any Project Mgr's name is as good as the software he puts out, and that being said, this is a definite bug that any Lead designer, programmer, Proj Mgr, would want to eliminate. This is their life, this is their work, and for you to come hear and throw around the "they aren't obligated" is downright ludicrous. I take offense that you would feel that way as a consumer, and I definitely am offended that you would announce proudly that you work in "MY" industry, and voice any gaming community that your company, (because you can only refer to your own experiences, especially after reading your posts Sonic) develops half baked software which is the type of CRAP that has plagued this industry for as long as I can remember... Comments like these are putrid and so far off base to how a Management member of a company thinks and feels (a reputable company anyway) and for a programmer who doesn't feel obligated to release a finished product.

POWER TO THE GAMERS

3 to 4 months of time between release and the design phase of the next version, for a 12 month dev cycle? Please tell me you meant to say weeks, not months.

Our situation at the company I work for is a lot different, as we have ten developers cycling through three major projects at once, one of them being development of backend systems for a major online title. We typically don't have the luxury of a big down time between cycles, usually reaching major milestones on Friday, and then starting something new on Monday (or even voluntarily on Sunday, in some cases). Since our developers have such a big role in the design process, we put a lot of care into our software systems, and make them as stable and efficient as we possibly can. That doesn't mean a nagging bug won't creep in there every once in a while, though. If it came down to a choice of spending a week or two to patch intermittent problems that happen to less than 1% of our customers or putting more effort into reaching a major milestone on time with better quality for an exciting new feature, I am going to choose choice B nine times out of ten. That's not to say we ignore our customers with these problems for our existing software, as we usually find a way to compensate them or inform them of possible workarounds in a quick, orderly fashion.

The only point I was trying to make was to say that there are no obligations for EA to patch this game for this particular scenario. There is no punishment or repercussions if they don't do it. The customer base will always be there, just by name recognition alone, which is a major luxury they still have for now. They probably wouldn't have thrown money around to acquire so many reputable dev houses in the past year if they were struggling. And there is no such thing as a bug-free piece of software. There is a positive correlation between the amount of bugs and the size and complexity of a given application, which is a fact that some refuse to accept. I have yet to see a game title ship with a bug list less than 50, including a few class B problems and the occasional class A, and that is after the producers or lead programmer have already gone through the list to remove what they consider to be small problems, just to cover their behinds. I'm sure your game projects have been no exception. All of this info used to frustrate me, too, until I got my CS degree and started working with real systems, seeing the grass on the other side.

My question for you would be if you are a programmer, too. Not to say that you are like this, but I've dealt with managers who have absolutely no clue about the problem-solving process that goes into writing good, manageable code and they are so out-of-touch with the capabilities of current technology. I guess I only trust project leads who have really been there in the trenches writing code into the wee hours of the morning, because they seem to be the easiest to work with and the most knowledgeable and reasonable with setting deadlines.

P.S. I liked your little sign-off. It kind of reminded me of high school, where some kid would make a long, boring speech about nothing for a class and then throw in a "_______ High School football rules!" to get the applause.