Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Real AI

[Forever_Young83]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

The player models look decent and the animations look horrible. When will ever be on the same level? Also this is nothing evolutionary, so why try to hype it.

[Tha_Kid]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

It honestly amazes me that EA continues to put video sequences like these in their promo clips. I'm all for tech demos and WIP videos, but EA, c'mon, choose these a bit more carefully, it's very easy to turn of consumers with sequences like that.

I see that in the clip and I just ask "Why?"

[dirtypuppet]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

I see that in the clip and I just ask "Why?"

Exactly, even if animations and context like this somehow do make their way into the final product (god forbid) how can they honestly forgive themselves from not hiding it better, it amazes me.

[TheKasmar]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

1:09-1:16 was quite interesting. Thats some serious leaping ability with a defender in front of you.

[stepsix]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

I believe its a way for the dev team to replicate a players moves or tendencies on the court. So maybe at certain spots on the floor (like the wing) Durant will do the jab, pumpfake, and drive.

It'll add some individuality to the CPU because now the players will actually be doing certain moves. For example Melo loves to use the jab step on certain parts of the floor so now with this real-AI he will.

Where as last year they had his tendency to just go left, right, spot up, etc. Now they have actual moves for the AI to use. So it should get rid of a lot of the genericness that was in Live 10.

This is pretty accurate with how the system works with one exception. In the last paragraph, the synergy works at a different level with the AI, so it is actually using both systems at the same time. Synergy helps to decide if a guy should drive, catch and shoot, pull up off of a drive, or finish at the rim.

As an example, if a player tends to pull up when challenged on a drive, if he's mid-drive and someone gets in his lane, synergy will influence him to 'shoot'. Real AI then acts at a lower level, looking to see where the defense is, what sequences a player has, and then pick the best one. It might select a cross-over -> step-back -> jumper, or spin move -> leaner, depending on the defense and what type of player it is.

These are recorded sequences played back on cpu players, so in that sense they are scripted. There are a number of aspects that make them organic in nature though. Firstly, they are playing back on a dynamic animation system. If a sequence has a spin, but you cut it off, the animation will not just plow through you. It also looks at where the defender currently is relative to the recorded sequence, and he's too far out of position, it can break out and choose a different sequence. In that sense it is just as dynamic as the underlying animation system, and with the two systems combined you get some really cool and varied behaviour.

We've never had something like this for performing moves - it has always been 'hard-coded' as to when to do a cross-over vs spin move, and it ends up looking very generic. In addition chaining moves into relevant combos was non-existent.

This isn't just signature stuff, this encompasses every move performed by the AI. More prominent players get their own specific sequences, but we also have sets for power post players for example, as well as even more generic "what to do when a user is trapping in the back court" type stuff. So far we have thousands of sequences, and at this point in the project, if we see a situation that needs a new one, we just record it and throw it into ANT.

[JerseySuave4]

why would they ever put that sequence from 1:09-1:16 in this video? Usually in a video that you're putting together to hype up your game you won't put something so blatantly unrealistic or screwed up in there. The guy does a standing dunk from the nearly the top of the key on the right side. If he can do that then imagine what he could do in a dunk contest. Forget dunking from behind the free throw line, that guy would be doing it behind the 3 point line.

I just hafta shake my head at this video because i dont understand why they would put things in their video. That were so ugly. I'd rather real AI use the animations, physics and movement that the human players have to use to play the game instead of having stuff scripted.

[BlAcK_OpS]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Real AI

Can't wait for the demo! Any idea if the demo will release in early August or at the end?

[bmgoff11]

Lol I already know it can't be as bad as that game we would be able to see the signs already. That game looked horrible around E3 time, I still remember how bad the jumpers were and how ugly the dribbling was.

This game looks nothing like that piece of trash. I think EA is just trying to stick to there guns this year which is the gameplay.

We should be getting a treat with the demo though definitely won't be a barebones one according the devs. Hopefully it allows us to play a full game like the madden demo..

yeah it should because it is a showcase for ur create player for the draft when the game comes out

[intruda119]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Real AI

I really feel bad for EA and the other game, you guys nitpick a little to much.

These recorded sequences are not canned animations, there pretty much tendency's amped up. If Durant is at the top of the key with one defender and a open lane, hell probably fake to the right and drive to the left and try to finish. There another word for go to moves, or signature moves. I can clearly see where Elite is going with this. Good luck EA, I wouldnt want your job.

[bmgoff11]

so it's not an "animation," it's just a "recording" that plays back in the proper context. fine. it makes no difference to me whether some guy wearing a mo-cap suit is responsible or whether some canned joystick movements are responsible. semantics aside, how is the "recording" any different in presentation to the gamer than a typical "animation" (namely the ones in other games which can also be broken and have tendencies/AI to help the CPU adapt)? overall, i'm just trying to figure out the "innovative" part for the experience of the gamer


but it's cool to hear it's not a two-man thing. it would've been nice to see durant's move in a different context than the defender jobbing on his pumpfake though

try thinking about it this way when u play bball u do certain things depending on where u are on the court . u have ur go to move but u change what u do depending on what the defense is doing against u. so u know what u want to do but u can change out of it at anytime same thing they are trying to do this year. to make the game feel like ur playing against someone and not the cpu/

[mlp111]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

You're right, I can see where you're coming from now. In essence, from your perspective as a player, they may as well be animations.

The real innovation from a gameplay standpoint is in the system that detects the context in the game and matches it to the context in a recording.

From a technical standpoint though, mocapping these sequences as animations would be impossible both from a money standpoint and a memory standpoint.

It is financially prohibitive to fly out every NBA star to do massive amounts of moves in all possible situations.

And from a memory standpoint it is absolutely impossible to fit that much animation on current generation consoles.

By recording inputs, we can record 100 times more data for all the contexts needed, and do that for 1000 times more players than if it was animation.

We can also get people to mimic real life player tendencies a lot easier by using the joystick, and in the case of Kevin Durant, get the real life players to do it.

Hopefully that clears things up.

nothing is going to clear up my doubts except for "5-ON-5 GAMEPLAY, recorded animations or whatever you guys choose to call it, just need to see some gameplay, i was feeling everything the trailer was saying and then at 1:00-1:17 or so they showed gameplay and everything i heard fell crashing to the ground, so i need video evidences not word of mouth he say or she say, or will just have to wait until the demo

[ehh]

Re: REAL AI in NBA ELITE 11

From a technical standpoint though, mocapping these sequences as animations would be impossible both from a money standpoint and a memory standpoint.

It is financially prohibitive to fly out every NBA star to do massive amounts of moves in all possible situations.

And from a memory standpoint it is absolutely impossible to fit that much animation on current generation consoles.

By recording inputs, we can record 100 times more data for all the contexts needed, and do that for 1000 times more players than if it was animation.

We can also get people to mimic real life player tendencies a lot easier by using the joystick, and in the case of Kevin Durant, get the real life players to do it.

Thanks for spending some time to come in here and explain this a little more.

This quoted part is where I'm still a little lost. Since everything you said is true about resource limitations, what is the source for all these recordings? Obviously you had KD up as the coverboy to record his stuff but what about everyone else in the league? Are you guys going through game footage, scouting reports, etc? So will you have some guys in the lab watch Melo or LeBron game tape and then do their best to mimic their game with the sticks in Elite and record that data? Based on what you're saying I think that's how it'll work.

Just curious as to how this will be implemented across the board.

[HMcCoy]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Real AI

I love the concept. Thats exactly how I try to play...signature sequences of moves guys actually do, from the correct spots on the floor.

Looking forward to this...

[michaeljordanjr]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Real AI

stepsix answered my concern about whether its dynamic enough to change the script.

Because I can foresee people memorizing the chained moves and anticipating them if the A.i. player uses it over and over.

I think Real AI is a great addition to basketball games and one that is long over due. Instead of predictable, generic AI behavior we get signature and dynamic behavior.

Despite the unrealistic dunk in the video, Elite is shaping up nicely.

Now for some HD 5 on 5 CPU vs CPU footage.

PLEASE - No recording a random guy playing the game, if you're recording a user player make sure its someone who KNOWS the controls and the game. Unlike the other NBA game's user footage where the guys were running around like headless chickens not knowing anything, I'd like Elite videos to look like actual basketball players playing basketball.

[magicman32]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Video: Real AI

why would they ever put that sequence from 1:09-1:16 in this video? Usually in a video that you're putting together to hype up your game you won't put something so blatantly unrealistic or screwed up in there. The guy does a standing dunk from the nearly the top of the key on the right side. If he can do that then imagine what he could do in a dunk contest. Forget dunking from behind the free throw line, that guy would be doing it behind the 3 point line.

I just hafta shake my head at this video because i dont understand why they would put things in their video. That were so ugly. I'd rather real AI use the animations, physics and movement that the human players have to use to play the game instead of having stuff scripted.

yeah. Live has had a problem with momentum and weight for a while in their games. Some of their animations for certain players are off. Like they are superhuman.

They need to improve on this big time.