NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

[ataman5]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

Not sure what TV folks are playing on, but the game looks pretty sharp on mine.

I feel like Im the lone acorn in forrest full of maple oaks who likes the game so far lol

Thats okay though..we all have choices and opinions...once you sort out all of the nonsense posts, there are good points on both sides of the fence

No you're not, the game looks pretty good on my TV as well. It's just you sense smt missing and you just badly want them to be there still i keep on playing..

[magicman32]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

I downloaded the demo last night and I wasn't expecting it to be great. However, I was curious about the controls and "feel" of the game cuz that's what the devs were saying. All I have to say I didn't expect this game to be this weak.

Everything from the controls, the feel, the look, the animations, the commentary and are all horrible. I'm truly shocked at how bad this game is. And there's no turbo button.

I tried the game again this morning before work and came across even more unimpressed. IMO, EA doesn't have a good base with Elite and in 2 more years they will still be behind by a long shot. This game took large steps backwards for real.

There is nothing about this game that I like and I feel like I went back in time playing this game.

[RayRay34]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

OK so after all day sitting at work reading peoples impressions I finally made it home and after 2 hours of playing I have to say this.......EA , good job on your first time out with a new game engine.
With that being said this demo has some draw backs, Yes the player models look a lil cartoony, but I think thats just because they got rid of all the high shine on all the players. Rebound and block animations are terrible, yes the ball no longer warps into the players hands but the guys look like the stiffs from NCCA March Madness 07. People have complained about guys EXPLODING to the hoop on dunks and lay ups , IMO the layups are fine! the dunks on the other hand, if like Live 10, can be fixed by dropping the aggression ratings on guys.
Last comment I will make is people have been saying the movement isn't that smooth....Thats because your not making it smooth, Remember left stick is your feet right stick is your hands. If you want a fluid cross over you have to move both your feet and your ball hand in the direction you want to go , AT THE SAME TIME!! Not a second later like we have grown accustom too. After getting used to the controls I have been bustin' off some ill moves(with the camera in broadcast mode)
In Closing I can safely say that this year again I will be getting both basketball games to play them both out.

SORRY IF KINDA LONG MAYBE NEXT TIME I SHOULD JUST LINK TO A BLOG. AGAIN SORRY!

[lnin0]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

Nothing wrong with retooling your game. There is something wrong with not holding it back for a full 18 mo. dev cycle it takes to build a proper game. Even more disturbing is that EA is going to go ahead and sell this alpha version for $60 to the public. Talk about beta testers ... you would be a fool not to wait on this one a year.

[MLB01]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

No you're not, the game looks pretty good on my TV as well. It's just you sense smt missing and you just badly want them to be there still i keep on playing..

I agree. It looks good @ 720p on a 21.5" HD monitor here.

[inkpimp007]

Not feeling this, not feeling the animation, not feeling the controls, not feeling the look. the movement, not feeling anything about this game.....smh, almost as if we're back in 07 again. It hurts my feelings because Live 10 was my game of choice. After this, Live is dead....Elite never started living....I expect another directional change for the new year.

All white numbers and all white names (if you can call it that)??? No light on the players??? This is my worst nightmare. I can't even try to like this game, looks like PS2, worst than ps2...smh

The only thing I can do is shake my head and think "are you serious? This is not NBA basketball."

EXACTLY.... there is know way around this disaster of a game. You pretty much hit on everything i thought when i played it.

[JWiLL02]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

The dribbling controls aren't bad, per se, but these dribble animations look NOTHING like NBA players handling the ball. It's not even close.

I'm just not sure how anyone who loves the NBA could stand behind this product that claims to represent NBA Basketball like no game before it, yet holds no semblance to the sport at all on the court.

Where's the explosive, fluid athleticism of NBA players?
Where's the individuality?
Where's the personality?

Live 10 had these things, how are they missing the next year? I've never seen a sports franchise take a big step back TWICE in one generation of consoles.

I guess the only thing I can do is thank EA for saving me some money, though I'm disappointed in doing so.

Guess I can also thank Mr. Littman for silencing Mike Wang's creative voice (pretty obvious considering the end result) which lead to the creation of the best basketball game of all time. Too bad you made it for the wrong company.

Bah.

[Gmoney2002]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

Ive spent all day reading these reviews on this demo thinking people were exaggerating, but WOW am I dissapointed with this demo. Im shocked honestly....I expected so much more....

Beyond the DRIBBLING control (which IMO is awesome) and commentary , absolutely nothing is inviting about it....the whole thing just screams "Meh" and to me its not even a "They might not have flair, but alot of mechanics are solid" type thing like it was last year, the gameplay as a whole is just......wonky for lack of a better term...

I am in this exact same boat. I was reading impressions all day and reserving judgement until I played the demo myself. Some quick thoughts:

Well...first off for those that are saying that the graphics are terrible and are comparable to the PS2 are dead wrong. I have the 360 version and the game looks good, slightly sharper than last year IMO. Debating whether the graphics are good or not is irrelevant to me because there are far deeper problems with this game than simply visual appeal.

Again EA most valuable asset is their controls. It's still top notch IMO. If only that control can be properly intergrated into a more fluid game.

Fluidity in player movement has plagued this series since it's jump to next gen and sadly those same problems are here. Transitions between animations, which was improved greatly last year have taken a HUGE step back. Simple actions like going up for a rebound or block and coming down with the ball look absolutely awkward to me. More so with the mid-are collisons...SMH.

The gather animations, which from what I read was delibrately done, are just too fast. Walking the ball up the court, accelerating and/or driving are still so robotic. Jumpshots however are not as bad as I expected from watching the videos.

What happened to the net/ball/rim interaction from last year? It wasn't stellar but there at least was more variety than a "swish" or "clunker".

RTP no matter how effective it may be will still look clumsy and robotic with sub par animations to display them.

Overall, although some impressions were a bit over the top negative, they have pretty much be on point from what I've played.

I will keep saying this but until EA upgrades/improves their animation library, I see these same issues reoccuring every year...

[Tomba]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

Plays like NBA 09....

Control is nice(albeit it feels very FORCED), but overall feels like NBA Live 06 all over again where the game will need a few years to get back on track.

The editing features of the game are gone as well. Minimalized completely from what has been in in years past.

Graphically MUCH better than NBA Live 10 that's for sure. Commentary sounds less impressive this year(I'm used to Marv sorry).

I'm being honest here but I feel that the ball physics are good but not the players. It moves VERY sluggish in the broadcast cam(and there is no zoom or height ability here to edit as well)

I see a very NHL influenced game idealogy now. Littman has taken control of the series in a way that I do not agree with. For hockey yes for basketball no. NHL 11 (besides the fact that we have NO broadcast cam customization) is an absolute joy to play. NBA Elite's missing something. i just don't know what yet...

[Tomba]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

I waited for it to download all day...

Went right back to the Fifa 11 demo.

But seriously the game has not improved. NBA Live 10 WAS very good I liked it a heck of alot out of the box with no editing. This one play as if it doesn't consider any actual momentum or movement to it's animations.

Almost like robots waiting for their command but the command is delayed because the one's and zero's don't match?

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

So finally got around to playing the demo. Dribble moves good, however you shouldn't be able to do everything with everybody. I was able to do killer cross overs with Shaq, Garnett, Big baby, Gasol bringing the ball up court with ease. Literally I was playing like Derrick Rose with Shaq bringing the ball up the court, crossing and spinning around the court, doing behind the back dribbles and all that with Shaq, big Baby, Garnett, Gaol.

That right there shouldn't happen. I can see right now these game is going to be a huge cheese fest online with the ability to do everything the same way with everybody.

Passing.....meh, takes a while to get use to it and icon passing is a pain because there is a delay in it. With sometimes it not even working at all. Lack of foul calls in the paint. I been ran over a dozen times by the cpu with no charge being called. I myself ran over a few going to the hole with no charge called. Same thing with stealing. You can hack away for a while before you get a foul called on you.

Not digging the fact you can throw down alley oops in traffic. I almost alley ooped it to myself off the back board in traffic. It was kind of funny because Gasol and Bynum just stood there in the lane while the ball bounced off the back board over their heads, I caught it flying through them but it went off the rim.....sigh

[LingeringRegime]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

For the shot animations in particular, the fact that you can release the ball at any point during the shot means that they are dynamic to user input and not canned.

Also, if a defender collides with you mid shot the animation changes to reflect that.

A "canned" shot animation would play out in a predetermined way for the moment the animation was launched.

Oh, I see what you mean. Thanks for the response.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

tomba, you cant edit animations and graphics/ player models...

thats my probablem with the demo, i can get good gameplay with edits i did it with 09 and 10. i just cant stomach the animations in this game anymore, from the warping, mysterious bump animations that are not called fouls and dont fit the play context. and the logic of jumpers again for big men off the post up.

i just feel the area in this franchise that needed the most work got the least attention. ( the post game shot logic for the cpu)

and to above posters wondering what Tv we are playing on i'll say this i had to turn my xbox off of HD to make the models look thicker and the court bigger.

thats right the game looks better in terms of solidness of the models in STANDARD DEFINATION

obviously not as crisp and clean as HD

[Tomba]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available, Post Impressions Here (PS3, 360)

tomba, you cant edit animations and graphics/ player models...

thats my probablem with the demo, i can get good gameplay with edits i did it with 09 and 10. i just cant stomach the animations in this game anymore, from the warping, mysterious bump animations that are not called fouls and dont fit the play context. and the logic of jumpers again for big men off the post up.

i just feel the area in this franchise that needed the most work got the least attention. ( the post game shot logic for the cpu)

and to above posters wondering what Tv we are playing on i'll say this i had to turn my xbox off of HD to make the models look thicker and the court bigger.

thats right the game looks better in terms of solidness of the models in STANDARD DEFINATION

obviously not as crisp and clean as HD

No, No you can not my friend...

I just tried alternate controls and it feels even more limited in movement(the "look" of movement). While the "ELITE" controls give you the freedom and ability to do more once you go to alternate to want to maybe try playing like previuos years it becomes very much like 06 for example say...

[stepsix]

Re: NBA Elite 11 Demo Available For PS3, Later Today For 360, Post Impressions Here

Run up to Rondo (or whoever is taking the ball down the court), Press up against him, don't flick the stick down for the steal attempt. At least 50% of the time he'll either try a half court pass that goes out of bounds, or I'll just steal the ball (without flicking the stick down for the steal.) Then it's a run for the dunk.

Planning on patching this issue.

To me sim means more that players are somewhat realistic to their abilities (ratings.)

On the CPU side that means Kobe on the Laker would be their leading scorer, getting a lot of shots, sometimes going off (when I play against the Lakers) for a huge night unless I work very hard to stop him. In NBA Live '10, for example, Steve Fisher was more the CPU Lakers main man - he was the one who could go off for a lot of points.

On the CPU side that means teams have strong AI. Maybe they don't play exactly like their real life counterpart, but if a team has a strong inside threat then the offense runs through the post men.

On the player side if I have control of LeBron James then I expect to get to the rim, dunk, make nice passes, rebound. I don't expect, if controlling Bynum, that I can drive from the three point line for a dunk, make my own shots, or go coast to coast for a dunk.

Sure that's a sandbox because when a gamer is in control of a team, the gamer might pass to Kobe every time for every shot. But if the player locks onto a scrub center the experience shouldn't be (if sim) being able to dominate the game.

I respect what you're saying here - at the beginning of every possession the AI is looking at who to run the offense through based on synergy stats. If they get into trouble with the defense it can break down and there's definitely times where they'll dump it off to someone who shouldn't have the ball.

I posted earlier that the AI is terrible...so I hope there has been a mix up or something.

There also seems to be a few bugs. NCAA never got patched or supported, so I've lost a lot of faith in EA supporting this post release.

Jesus is in the game?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJxyODxpbII

I'd love some more specific feedback as one of the vets on here...

We're aware of the T-Pose bug, the demo is missing a fix. We're looking closely for any other instances and will patch any remaining.

with it being no speed burst how in the world do i make my player speed up.

I will get rondo the ball at the top of the key and try and take fisher off the dribble or call a pick and when i try and go around it or move rondo jogs

I was also running down court with rondo and gasol was running side by side with me

One thing I'm curious about people feeling like they're stuck in the mud with no turbo (wrt the first example you posted)...if the ball is in the wrong hand, you have no first step, you need to get it in the correct hand before you'll get a step on your defender.

So far I'm not a fan of the controls but I'm going to keep "practicing."


I have this real fear of the shooting being way too easy. I hit almost everything I have thrown up so far after about 5 mins of practice. Difficulty setting change may help.

Hey I think it's cool you can go to OT in the demo. I let the Lakers hang in one game just to see.

Six Step or REanimator the late game AI seems a little off. When the computer is down under 1 min Fisher just seems to jack the first bad 3 he can get. On a coupel dead ball inbouds plays he caught and shot way to deep and way to quick for the time and score.

Thanks for the feedback on this, I'll have a look and see if there's something I can do for the patch. Did you play on superstar yet? I find it fairly challenging.

Is it just me or with the icon passing is there a overly-long delay from when you hold rb until the icons appear? I hope that is just a demo thing.

I think this has been addressed already by Pared, but icon passing is instantaneous, they just don't come up immediately visually

A lot of positives in this game. A lot of jank too. I find the graphics better than Live 10, just less vibrant. There is sterile quality to presentation but the commentary is surprisingly solid. They won't tell stories but its a refreshing team to listen to. Right stick controls are much more intuitive than past Lives for me. On Defense, it's even better. I like the game best in broadcast.

The defense is worlds better, there are good bodying animations and using LT can help a lot (unless its Kobe, who roasted me each game). It gets shaky again in the post, as there will be a lot of awkwardness animation wise. Still, the post game is pretty fun as well, though i'm still getting used to the moves. The blocking can get pretty bad on jumpshots. It got better the more i played (as in the shots I was taking weren't as obvious) but it still looks super unrealistic. The verticals also contribute to the how bad the mid-air collsions can look, particularly on rebounds & adjusted shots. Steals & pressuring the ballhandler feels great but I wasn't impressed with the loose ball hustle. Better than Live 10 but still meh. Multiple times the ball was going out of bounds and in all I got one hustle animation, from Bynum who threw it out anyway. Loose balls where the ball stays on the court could also use a controllable hustle, if you will.

Once I got a hang of the controls (which wasn't until i stopped 5-on-5 and played Be a pro and then went back) I pulled off some plays and moves that really felt rewarding, particularly the finishes. I don't think it was a good idea making layups harder to make than dunks, but it definitely is rewarding when you do pull off a great drive and get the layup all because of skill. Feathering the LS can bring some good stuff in the Elite demo as well when it comes to getting space for the jumper or the drive.

There are fastbreaks, which surprised me. I had one where Pierce picked up a looseball around halfcourt and Artest and Fisher were right with him, but I edged him and Pierce bursted forward to finish with a sweet fingerroll. It's not ideal, as Fisher could chase down Rondo, but when the sprint kicks in at the right time it can make for a great break.

I had a completely positive experience with Become Legendary. With playcalling on, it was pretty fun. I was a SF and we were feeding Cousins, when the game was close, the black team brought in Hayward and ran him off of screens on either side for 3's. Good late game logic by the AI as far as fouls. I sent the game into OT by hitting 2 clutch free throws. I like the Free Throw shooting in the game as well. Turned the difficulty up to superstar and it is a legitimate skill making those. Sealed the game by getting a pick roll off a broken play. Screen was set to my right, i kept the ball in my right hand and strafed my man (who went over) then I crossed him left, and fed the rolling screen for a big jam. That mode will get a lot of play should I get Elite.

I think those that play Elite will find a lot to like, though looking past the blatant traveling that can be done (it's possible in all bball games but it can look particularly heinous at times in Elite due to gathers and rocket dunks in the demo) and the hanging that goes with the funky look of the mid-air collisions might be asking too much of gamers who haven't seen animations this rough in years (esp those who stuck around to see them get better, only to regress). For those who accept the tradeoff, there is a really nice organic feel there with a dash of anything can happen. For example, you might get an ugly no call collision from going for a long board, but at the same time another player can duck in and scoop it up for a run out. I guess it's a beautiful ugly if you can appreciate it.

The game/series has great potential but the animation quality is bad enough to give it almost a beta feel. I can't blame people for not being able (or wanting to) get past that, but there is pretty good bball game underneath that. I already know I won't be able to put any friends onto this game as a serious option until the physics animations catch up with the rest of the game. I'm very curious in what a patch can do for any of this.

Thanks for this, I'm misting up a bit

This is a good impression.

As I mentioned this last night, it's the auto-sensing now in the game for players on defense. They don't move correctly, body up the wrong players and so forth all because of it. You can't just take off and run in a direction if you need/want to.

And that's completely against the entire mantra this year of control.

The Celtics actually run the same. exact. down screen for Pierce (left to right block in the post) you'd see in 2k's demo. However, because of the movement issues here, it's tough to catch and realize what is going on.

Try tapping LB when on defense (offball) - it will toggle you in and out of that defensive stance. This is somewhat buried I know and it's not in the manual, but let me know if that helps what you're having an issue with.

Your second point is very insiteful. Teams are definitely running authentic sets, there are times when the execution breaks down.

shoot when i went into overtime with the lakers and they kept feeding kobe the ball and he was killing me it surely felt like i was playing kobe lol

But yea besides some sig shots and the players ability there is not a lot of sig feel or moves but that has always been the case with this series

Please keep in mind that I was playing on Superstar mode.

It feels very good to have a second option this year. I don't know which basketball video game to choose now. There are a lot of positives in NBA Elite 11.

Positives:

1. The cheese factor of playing off the scripted animations is completely gone.
2. I can actually travel and feel good about it when I don't release the ball in time.
3. The shooting mechanics in this game are great. Gives you total control.
4. Ball/rim physics are better. If you stink at shooting, it will be reflected as so.
5. Ball handling is fantabulous; will take some getting used to though.
6. Overall sound of the game is good.
7. The feel of the controls is very good, especially dribbling. Definitely through the tutorials, because none of us will be pros right away.
8. The A.I. defense is tougher than I expected.
9. Shot blocking is my favorite part of this game. It's very realistic and you see Pau Gasol and Garnett power smashing shots all over the court, but it is not excessive.
10. Gameplay is much better than NBA Live 10, because you will not be restricted by scripted animations.
11. The menu system is a lot smoother and quicker this year.

What needs work:

1. Signature shots are in, but signature motions don't look like they feel.
2. The gameplay is too fast. It does feel a bit arcadish when players like Garnett almost dunk from the free throw line on a one step and jump. I like the length of the jumps, but some of the players are not able to dunk from very far (those should be layups). Please slow it down for online play and give us an option to slow it down offline.
3. Please tone down the rim noises and net swishes are too loud. We should barely be able to hear them during Broadcast camera mode.
4. Offensive fouls might be rampant this year because of the Euro-step move. That can be fixed by allowing the players to body up (make contact) with defender and then sliding off of him, unless he is directly cutting your path of to the basket.
5. There is no easy way to say this one. The graphics are decent, but the player models look like they got fired from the Wii version and landed a job on the PS3 version.
6. I noticed that there was no switching on defense. When I want to change defenders up during a bad match up, the CPU should recognize that I am putting Kobe on Paul Pierce. Derek Fisher should then switch to the player Kobe was guarding. Also, player switch on screens would be a welcome addition.
7. Please, next year, give us an option to challenge someone online in the demo. That will set your game apart from all other challengers.

Well, for me, the good outweighs the bad. Gameplay goes to NBA Elite 11 this year for me. Animations that mimic a persons playing style in real life is great, but when you are locked into those animations with limited control over the outcome of basic fundamentals of a game, that can ruin the experience. This is not so with NBA 2k11 this year. That is why I love what EA Sports has done this year. No, the game is not perfect and never will be, but it does have great potential.

Unfortunately, I can only choose one game this year and it will be a tough choice. Both NBA games have a lot to offer this year. I might have to flip a coin to determine how many times I am going to flip the coin that I need to flip.

re: switching on defense, try holding the position that you think you should be playing if you were guarding that guy for a second (in this case keep Kobe in good position on Pierce) - the logic isn't perfect but more often than not it should pick up and switch assignments.

correction. your right. Its LB+RB plus face buttons. Sorry about that. It's just terribly clunky and slow. About the worst I've ever seen it in a video game since Icon passing started

Im having better luck on pass quickness and accuracy using the free style passing, RB+Right stick on alternate control scheme

It is definitely RB + the button you want to pass too...I'm not sure what you're experiencing, I just tried it and if you hold RB, as soon as you tap the button (make sure you let it go), the pass executes. Maybe you're holding the button for the guy you want to pass to (eg 'A') down?

Well, i share the negatives that people kept on making started from the first reviewer, i don't want to go over them again.

But i have to tell you how much potential i see in this game, it's definitely a base for the new era of sports gaming but this really doesn't justify the game as a good basketball game from what i can see.

But i should tell you that this game is a lot better than Live 10 when you master the controls and get a feel for it, still nowhere near that i had expected, if it was built in 2008 i would definitely get it day 1 but coming to late 2010 and 2011, it will be so hard to decide whether i want to spend my money on this or not.

The basics are there, controls are immense and open to great improvements. I hope ea will just try to build on what we have with Elite 11 and i see that if they keep on building we may have a great basketball game at the end of this so called 3 years plan.

Thnx for a great demo, too, very well detailed.

Edit: The more i play the better it gets i should tell, esp become legendary. And also baseline cam is a must to play better.

2nd edit: Just give more hours to play, i think i'm leaning to buy it.

Hah I had to laugh at the progression on this one.

First off... wow.. that is a ton of reading..

So, here is my honest impression...(for who cares), and then I have one question for REANIMATOR... (forgive me if I spelled it wrong)

I commend EA Sports for what they have done. I think that fora first year offering... they have done a tremendous job. There is a foundation set for them to improve upon with signature animations, more polished graphics, etc. etc. etc.
I think that knowing that this is a 3 year project.. and knowing next year will be heads and shoulders above this.. the fact they are packaging in NBA Jams is brilliant.
I really dig the controls, and I think this game just needs some polish and refinements and a few additional touches hear and there, and it is well on its way.

I give your guys kudos ... and despite what a lot of people say... its actually very fun, and the possibilities are tremendous...

NOW.... my question...
I will be purchasing this along with NBA 2K11... (I can't pass up Jordan, seeing as how I am from NC)...
BUT....
What system do you recommend? I have heard something about the game being ported from the 360 to the PS3, and it will run better on the 360. I just need to know if that was a demo thing, or if there is truth to that. Please advise... Thanks and keep up the great work!!!

We develop for both consoles in parallel. From a gameplay perspective they're exactly the same. It really comes down to what else you're going to get out of the hardware. There are times when performance is more of an issue on one console or the other, but for the most part they should be very similar. If you have both consoles, is there any reason why you wouldn't download both demos? If you don't, I'd look at what other exclusive games each console offers before making a decision.

I agree completely...I'm liking it more and more now that I have the controls down pretty well...but I just can't get past the poor animations and "spasticness" of the movements...

I will be here all season to give feedback as I will be playing this game some as well as the other one...

This is what I'm looking for - I'm going to be here all season too, the earlier I get feedback the better I can make next year's game.

why does this have to be confirmed?

isn't this something EA should already know it's their game....

I can't believe they would release a demo and not know what is happening in the demo. This stuff gets tired and old not knowing stuff like rocket dunks exist in your product until the consumer points it out

not knowing if ref's move on the floor until the consumer points it out...

what's next the ball not being apart of the game

to be clear on this one rEAnimator didn't know that the refs were frozen because he was away when the change went in. It wasn't an oversight, but an unfortunate reality when dealing with performance within a limited environment. The biggest place performance shows up is online, and I feel that Live has done a pretty good job over the years of making the online experience smooth...decisions such as these suck to have to make, but are one of the tradeoffs.