If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

[Boilerbuzz]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

If the competition was "flawless" this board would look much like it did in the aftermath of Elite once the shock and morbid curiosity wore off and the game was ultimately cancelled.

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You mean dead like it is now?


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[King_B_Mack]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

You're completely missing his overall point man. He's saying that another company has been squeezed out of the market by the other two titles at this point. What you seem to continue to ignore or fail to realize or something is that this is a business. Like has been mentioned before, these companies care about sales. While it might be all well and good to make games because people want to see them and play them, if the sales aren't there to justify the cost of making the damn things, companies aren't going to waste their time.

NBA 09 sold around 400 thousand copies and that's a number as it currently stands, not sure the numbers at the time. Compared to 2.16m for Live 09 and 2.28m for 2K9. They weren't making any headway in the market so they pulled out. The following year (again numbers are current standings) Live sold 1.16m and 2K did 2.80. The market now has been further dwindled for efforts after number one. Even now Live has sold about 70 thousand copies. Most of that (if not all) is from the established base of Live fans who will play this game no matter how bad it is and tell the world that it's not as bad as people think. It really is. Anyway, you're asking for another company to put up the money to get the rights to make an NBA game, to pay a team to put a quality effort together, commentators for the game and so on. That's also asked for on systems that are even more expensive to develop on. There's no incentive to footing that bill, sorry.

[shutdown10]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

two established companies? right now ea is anything but established in nba gaming. after elite 11 and live 13 they actually have more work to do to earn trust. what resources are taken up? 2k has three commentators and ea has espn. do you really believe that there is no one else out there they can use? espn is not the only station in town. do you remember apf 2k8? that game had nothing. no real life broadcast package no real life commentators not even the nfl license. the game was essentially a port of nfl 2k5. and that was on top of being very bare bones in the modes department. that game sold upwards of 400K copies. 400K without even real teams. nba 2k14 doesnt have a real life broadcast package either. they both use the 2k sports network. even nfl 2k5 didnt have real life broadcasters. so if a commentary team and broadcast package is your only argument then you dont have an argument. there are any number of local broadcast teams they could go after. even if they had a generic broadcast package and a fake commentary team it could still be good if they put the effort in.

backbreaker didnt sell for a multitude of reasons. it didnt have actual nfl teams. it didnt have ANY commentary. the gameplay didnt receive a warm reception especially in terms of the camera angles. its modes werent fleshed out. there werent many plays to pick from. i could go on. and that game sold over 300K copies. imagine if they actually had great gameplay and ai with solid commentary and real nfl teams. either way that has no place in this conversation because no one holds an exclusive license to the nba.

and if nba live is so bad (as you say it is) then why would that prevent someone else from making a game? if anything that should encourage another team to step up. even if they dont beat 2k they can still produce a game and say hey we beat ea. so that argument still doesnt hold water. by your logic if both nba live and nba 2k were horrible games no other company should even try since there are already two games out there by two different companies. makes perfect sense.

If you want to continue to play this game of keep responding to my post, then I can as well. You still don't understand what I'm trying to say. Whether Nba Live is failing or thriving, EA is still an established company because they have other titles that sell well on a every year basis. Back-breaker sold 300K copies, but could not really break the mold they wanted to because their game could not have authentic licenses because of EA Madden football. Yes the Nba does not give out exclusive licenses to gaming companies, but if you want to make an Nba game you have to pay the NBA to make a game, which is not cheap. Companies that are looking at the situation between NBA 2k and EA are not going to be the third option in that situation because 2k is thriving and EA is failing, but EA does not want to remove themselves from the situation. Imagine that scenario entering into this market first having to to pay the NBA to publish a game, then having to compete with two other basketball games. Next what if Live were to get their act together and finally make a legit sim basketball game. The third company would have alot of difficulty surviving in that market with two brand loyal basketball games that have been out for a while. Everyone knows that football is more popular then basketball in the U.S, so companies will be able to take the risk on football rather basketball. A generic basketball game is not going to sell, unless it is a game that resembles NBA street, which was a fun and whacky game. The basketball video game market is much different than the football video market. Look at all the sports games in video gaming right now, and you will see that there is either 1 or 2 video games being made yearly for the MLB, Soccer, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Tennis, Bowling, and etc. Three games cannot exist in video sport games anymore. A company can try college, but they would have to face all those legal issues which is going to stop them from even trying. Pay attention to the economy and market right now, and not just what you believe can happen.

[El_Poopador]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

You're completely missing his overall point man. He's saying that another company has been squeezed out of the market by the other two titles at this point. What you seem to continue to ignore or fail to realize or something is that this is a business. Like has been mentioned before, these companies care about sales. While it might be all well and good to make games because people want to see them and play them, if the sales aren't there to justify the cost of making the damn things, companies aren't going to waste their time.

NBA 09 sold around 400 thousand copies and that's a number as it currently stands, not sure the numbers at the time. Compared to 2.16m for Live 09 and 2.28m for 2K9. They weren't making any headway in the market so they pulled out. The following year (again numbers are current standings) Live sold 1.16m and 2K did 2.80. The market now has been further dwindled for efforts after number one. Even now Live has sold about 70 thousand copies. Most of that (if not all) is from the established base of Live fans who will play this game no matter how bad it is and tell the world that it's not as bad as people think. It really is. Anyway, you're asking for another company to put up the money to get the rights to make an NBA game, to pay a team to put a quality effort together, commentators for the game and so on. That's also asked for on systems that are even more expensive to develop on. There's no incentive to footing that bill, sorry.

youre not even arguing against my initial point. my point is that ea is not preventing anyone else from trying. i never said other companies should try right now. the post i originally replied to said that ea needs to stop making nba games so someone else can. someone else certainly can make an nba game whether ea is doing it or not. whether its financially feasible or a good idea is a completely different argument.

[El_Poopador]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

The basketball video game market is much different than the football video market

im going to start here. you were the one who brought up backbreaker. i was simply responding to that and im the one who said its not relevant.

If you want to continue to play this game of keep responding to my post, then I can as well. You still don't understand what I'm trying to say. Whether Nba Live is failing or thriving, EA is still an established company because they have other titles that sell well on a every year basis. Back-breaker sold 300K copies, but could not really break the mold they wanted to because their game could not have authentic licenses because of EA Madden football. Yes the Nba does not give out exclusive licenses to gaming companies, but if you want to make an Nba game you have to pay the NBA to make a game, which is not cheap. Companies that are looking at the situation between NBA 2k and EA are not going to be the third option in that situation because 2k is thriving and EA is failing, but EA does not want to remove themselves from the situation. Imagine that scenario entering into this market first having to to pay the NBA to publish a game, then having to compete with two other basketball games. Next what if Live were to get their act together and finally make a legit sim basketball game. The third company would have alot of difficulty surviving in that market with two brand loyal basketball games that have been out for a while. Everyone knows that football is more popular then basketball in the U.S, so companies will be able to take the risk on football rather basketball. A generic basketball game is not going to sell, unless it is a game that resembles NBA street, which was a fun and whacky game. The basketball video game market is much different than the football video market. Look at all the sports games in video gaming right now, and you will see that there is either 1 or 2 video games being made yearly for the MLB, Soccer, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Tennis, Bowling, and etc. Three games cannot exist in video sport games anymore. A company can try college, but they would have to face all those legal issues which is going to stop them from even trying. Pay attention to the economy and market right now, and not just what you believe can happen.

again you are not hitting on the only point i was trying to make. ea is in no way shape or form stopping anyone from making an nba game. whether it is a good idea for another company to try is not the argument. your original post said ea needs to stop making nba games so someone else can. even if they stop that will not change anything for another company who might be interested.

then you say if live gets their act together and makes a good game. well that just defeats the purpose of your original statement since the whole point was that you dont like their game. so introducing that hypothetical (in your case. personally i think live 14 is ok and can lead to a great game in the future) completely goes against what you originally wanted.

you also brought up other sports which i dont really understand. the mlb license has been in 2ks hands for the last however many years so no one else can make a third party mlb game. the nfl license is in eas hands so no one can make another nfl game. hockey only has one game out so why isnt there two? 2k stopped making their hockey game so why didnt someone else step in? thats the same scenario as this just with hockey. sure its not as popular but if they make a better game then why not? tennis and bowling you dont even need a license. look at the wii. they included those games together with their system and they are two of the funnest games to play. even better than some of the licensed games.

any company can try. that is my point. i am not arguing that it is a good idea. but you make it sound like because company a is trying company b is not allowed to. if company a has a horrible product (as you claim it does) then company b can make a much better product and step in if they chose to do so. if no one ever did that we would be stuck in the dark ages.

[shutdown10]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

youre not even arguing against my initial point. my point is that ea is not preventing anyone else from trying. i never said other companies should try right now. the post i originally replied to said that ea needs to stop making nba games so someone else can. someone else certainly can make an nba game whether ea is doing it or not. whether its financially feasible or a good idea is a completely different argument.

There you go again, but I said that and firmly stand by it. By EA dropping the ball for three straight years and not relinquishing their position on the basketball market, it allowed no one else to enter the market because two companies were still controlling the market economic wise. EA was MIA, but other companies saw that they were not giving up, so they were not going to take the risk going head on with 2K and having to face EA as well when they decided to come back. Only two games max can survive in the video sports game market.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

youre not even arguing against my initial point. my point is that ea is not preventing anyone else from trying. i never said other companies should try right now. the post i originally replied to said that ea needs to stop making nba games so someone else can. someone else certainly can make an nba game whether ea is doing it or not. whether its financially feasible or a good idea is a completely different argument.

You're right, if another company wants to take the risk, there is nothing stopping them. However, to say EA is "in no way shape or form" preventing another company from making a game is simply not totally accurate. They continue to put out signs that they're making a game and then canceling at the last minute, or putting out efforts like what they did this year just to keep from eating another year of NBA license money.

Just because another company COULD go ahead and take on all that risk doesn't absolve EA of muddying up the market. This is like trying to pass off blame of the exclusivity to the NFL to absolve EA when they lobbied for that license for YEARS and it was put to auction knowing EA was the only company with the money to pay what they were looking for.

[shutdown10]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

im going to start here. you were the one who brought up backbreaker. i was simply responding to that and im the one who said its not relevant.



again you are not hitting on the only point i was trying to make. ea is in no way shape or form stopping anyone from making an nba game. whether it is a good idea for another company to try is not the argument. your original post said ea needs to stop making nba games so someone else can. even if they stop that will not change anything for another company who might be interested.

then you say if live gets their act together and makes a good game. well that just defeats the purpose of your original statement since the whole point was that you dont like their game. so introducing that hypothetical (in your case. personally i think live 14 is ok and can lead to a great game in the future) completely goes against what you originally wanted.

you also brought up other sports which i dont really understand. the mlb license has been in 2ks hands for the last however many years so no one else can make a third party mlb game. the nfl license is in eas hands so no one can make another nfl game. hockey only has one game out so why isnt there two? 2k stopped making their hockey game so why didnt someone else step in? thats the same scenario as this just with hockey. sure its not as popular but if they make a better game then why not? tennis and bowling you dont even need a license. look at the wii. they included those games together with their system and they are two of the funnest games to play. even better than some of the licensed games.

any company can try. that is my point. i am not arguing that it is a good idea. but you make it sound like because company a is trying company b is not allowed to. if company a has a horrible product (as you claim it does) then company b can make a much better product and step in if they chose to do so. if no one ever did that we would be stuck in the dark ages.

Not trying to be disrespectful, but if you don't understand how business works then please delete this post. The football market is different than the basketball market because one company has their hands on all the licenses. Back breaker would have continued if they were allowed to get their share of those resources. Their sales would have dwindled throughout the years because of the lack of NFL appeal in the game belonging to EA, so they were not going to continue in the market whether you want to believe it or not. Are you saying that any company can make a generic NBA game just out of your imagination? EA needs to to give up that number two slot and allow another company to compete with 2k if they cannot get their game going properly. You can try to defend EA or Nba Live in this situation, but business is business!

[shutdown10]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

You're right, if another company wants to take the risk, there is nothing stopping them. However, to say EA is "in no way shape or form" preventing another company from making a game is simply not totally accurate. They continue to put out signs that they're making a game and then canceling at the last minute, or putting out efforts like what they did this year just to keep from eating another year of NBA license money.

Just because another company COULD go ahead and take on all that risk doesn't absolve EA of muddying up the market. This is like trying to pass off blame of the exclusivity to the NFL to absolve EA when they lobbied for that license for YEARS and it was put to auction knowing EA was the only company with the money to pay what they were looking for.

I don't think he realizes the point here. No other company is going to get involved with this ugly situation. You have a basketball company in 2k that has been thriving in the market for 3 years and you have EA that has failed to put out a game for three years, but is still paying for their share in this market as well. Another company is not going to put themselves in that situation because of the pressures of having to pay to publish with NBA and still compete with sales against 2k and when EA when finally decides to come out. If EA gave up their rights, then I guarantee we all would have seen another company emerge by now. The situation is too risky for a third company to get into basketball right now.

[El_Poopador]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

I don't think he realizes the point here. No other company is going to get involved with this ugly situation. You have a basketball company in 2k that has been thriving in the market for 3 years and you have EA that has failed to put out a game for three years, but is still paying for their share in this market as well. Another company is not going to put themselves in that situation because of the pressures of having to pay to publish with NBA and still compete with sales against 2k and when EA when finally decides to come out. If EA gave up their rights, then I guarantee we all would have seen another company emerge by now. The situation is too risky for a third company to get into basketball right now.

ok lets say hypothetically that both nba live and nba 2k are horrible games and have been horrible games for the last say six years. are you honestly telling me that no other company would think to try and make a game because there are already two games on the market?

or lets say that ea does decide to step out. does that mean the first company that steps in is the only one thats going to succeed? if i release an nba game after ea leaves no one else will try since i took that second spot regardless of how bad my game is? and the only reason they will not try is because there are two games on the market?

[El_Poopador]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

Not trying to be disrespectful, but if you don't understand how business works then please delete this post. The football market is different than the basketball market because one company has their hands on all the licenses. Back breaker would have continued if they were allowed to get their share of those resources. Their sales would have dwindled throughout the years because of the lack of NFL appeal in the game belonging to EA, so they were not going to continue in the market whether you want to believe it or not.

i understand how businesses work perfectly well. i honestly dont understand why you keep bringing up backbreaker as if it is relevant to this conversation. but if you honestly believe that if backbreaker was a better game that it wouldnt have continued then you are dead wrong. the nfl license only goes so far. the amount of customization in the game made it possible to make the teams look like nfl teams. but it was lacking everywhere else. gameplay was not well received. presentation was practically nonexistent. commentary WAS nonexistent. modes were barebones at best. there was no replay value. that is why the game flopped. it wasnt just because it didnt have espn and nfl licensing.

Are you saying that any company can make a generic NBA game just out of your imagination? EA needs to to give up that number two slot and allow another company to compete with 2k if they cannot get their game going properly. You can try to defend EA or Nba Live in this situation, but business is business!

i dont know why you say generic nba game. any company can buy rights to use the nba license whether ea is around or not. ea has the number two slot because there is no other game not the other way around. if its so bad then another company should be able to easily come in and make a better game and take over that number two spot. not having the espn license isnt preventing that. 2k has generic presentation. it still took over the nba gaming market. whats to stop another company from taking over second place?

no company comes out of the gate and becomes top dog. remember when 2k was the little guy and ea was amazing? slowly but surely 2k has overtaken a few sports games and ea was voted the worst company in america. now imagine if 2k had taken your approach and just said "well ea is already there so we cant do anything. if they decide to step out of the market then we will start trying." does that sound like a good idea?

[blackceasar]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

What I mean is this, this game should be dead and its not (in terms of gamers giving a damn about its existence). And for reasons that are mostly born of the competition's varied incompetence. I'll hedge my next few statements and keep them as general as possible to avoid confusion.

In the end, if EA puts out a product (and by that I'm talking the game itself to go along with support) that is deemed "good" they will have a lot less trouble than they should getting back in people's consoles. Considering where this franchise has been and where it could have potentially wound up I think thats amazing.


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I still disagree on the "amazing" thing. You see, when you look at the bigger picture and ALL people that buy video games (including sports titles), its really a very small sliver of us that are into sports video games enough to have these kinds of talks, debates, pick the game apart for what it really is (A major disappointment considering the resources they have, the time they had, and the sheer power that is the 800lb gorilla that is EA/EA Sports..and lets not forget the speech they gave for Elite 11).

The reason why the game and franchise is still alive is because of the other 95% of purchasers out there that do NOT look at sports titles like we do. The 14 year olds who want Live becuase they know "Live" and Their favorite plays is on the box. The moms and dads buying "a basketball game for their kid"... Im just saying, people like us wether we love the game or hate the game are a drop in the bucket as far as revenue and sales go for Live or any EA sports title for that matter.

There's nothing amazing about casual video game consumers keeping a franchise alive. They are keeping it alive and don't even realize they are doing so. So it's not even about the game being deemed "good" by people like us (if it ever gets there).. when EA does something with a game like Live or Madden than makes guys like US here HAPPY, it's usually not because of US (sometimes it is but not always)..it's more just coincidence. If they put out a great sports title that WE deem great, again, its more coincidence than "US".

[shutdown10]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

ok lets say hypothetically that both nba live and nba 2k are horrible games and have been horrible games for the last say six years. are you honestly telling me that no other company would think to try and make a game because there are already two games on the market?

If both games are horrible then maybe a company comes out if they feel they can sway fans and are able to make a profit, but that would still be risky because they would be looking into long-term goals. The situation that exists now is far more risky with 2k being a winner right now, and EA being the loser not giving up their spot. Companies that probably wanted to come in probably thought that EA would finally compete with 2k this time around having time, so they were not going to invest into basketball with that situation looming. With the reception Nba Live 14 is receiving, then maybe EA finally gives up their spot so another company comes in that second slot to show what they can do. I want EA to survive and make a respectable game, but they string along their fan base with their games.

[Slater James]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

You mean dead like it is now?


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There have been a number of discussions about whether not Live has a future. I'm saying they could easily be in a situation where no one even cares. When was the last time somebody said,"Damn, Inside Drive might be a viable option if their devs could get it together."? That's where Live could be right now. The relic in the museum. The bottom line right now is that gamers are more inclined toward competition than would be case under different circumstances.

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[Slater James]

Re: If NBA Live Has a Future, It Has to Look Radically Different

I still disagree on the "amazing" thing. You see, when you look at the bigger picture and ALL people that buy video games (including sports titles), its really a very small sliver of us that are into sports video games enough to have these kinds of talks, debates, pick the game apart for what it really is (A major disappointment considering the resources they have, the time they had, and the sheer power that is the 800lb gorilla that is EA/EA Sports..and lets not forget the speech they gave for Elite 11).

The reason why the game and franchise is still alive is because of the other 95% of purchasers out there that do NOT look at sports titles like we do. The 14 year olds who want Live becuase they know "Live" and Their favorite plays is on the box. The moms and dads buying "a basketball game for their kid"... Im just saying, people like us wether we love the game or hate the game are a drop in the bucket as far as revenue and sales go for Live or any EA sports title for that matter.

There's nothing amazing about casual video game consumers keeping a franchise alive. They are keeping it alive and don't even realize they are doing so. So it's not even about the game being deemed "good" by people like us (if it ever gets there).. when EA does something with a game like Live or Madden than makes guys like US here HAPPY, it's usually not because of US (sometimes it is but not always)..it's more just coincidence. If they put out a great sports title that WE deem great, again, its more coincidence than "US".

I would be willing to wager that most casual gamers (of the age you've described) don't even remember when Live was a premier game (I think Live 2005 was the best of its generation). In their gaming lives 2k has always had the superior product. I don't think casuals have kept this series afloat. They typically don't have any brand loyalty.

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