Overall Rating Discussion

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  • _Fernando
    MVP
    • Mar 2014
    • 235

    #1

    Overall Rating Discussion

    Another roster update will be coming out soon and it moved about 85% of the overalls, most of them downwards. (This will be another discussion when the update comes out) A lot of people may take offense to their favorite player going down even though they're still in the same position relative to everyone else.

    Anyways.....
    For '15, we're rewriting the way the Overall Rating is calculated since we're moving to less subjective ratings and using data from NBA and Synergy to calculate each rating category.

    In order to help write a formula to give us an accurate Overall Rating, the question I have for you is "What does an overall rating mean to you?"


    If you want to add on to that, I'd love to hear feedback on what you would like it to mean as well.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by _Fernando; 04-22-2014, 08:59 AM. Reason: Wordsmithing
    TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod
  • Rockie_Fresh88
    Lockdown Defender
    • Oct 2011
    • 9621

    #2
    Re: Overall Rating Discussion

    overalls don't mean anything as long as the player plays like himself .


    Most casuals look at it like this

    85-99 - superstar
    75-84- good players
    68-74- decent
    65< bench warmers or limited role players


    But that's not a good way to look at it.

    Also ratings shouldn't affect every position'a overall the same way. It's not a big deal if a center can't shoot threes but you want your guards to have that ability .
    #1 Laker fan
    First Team Defense !!!

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    • _Fernando
      MVP
      • Mar 2014
      • 235

      #3
      Re: Overall Rating Discussion

      Originally posted by mars5541
      overalls don't mean anything as long as the player plays like himself .


      Most casuals look at it like this

      85-99 - superstar
      75-84- good players
      68-74- decent
      65< bench warmers or limited role players


      But that's not a good way to look at it.

      Also ratings shouldn't affect every position'a overall the same way. It's not a big deal if a center can't shoot threes but you want your guards to have that ability .
      So, what do you think would be a good way to look at it then?
      Not challenging you, just curious.

      For your second part, you're saying that players should be rated within what we should expect from their position?
      TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

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      • Rockie_Fresh88
        Lockdown Defender
        • Oct 2011
        • 9621

        #4
        Re: Overall Rating Discussion

        Originally posted by NBALIVE_Fernando
        So, what do you think would be a good way to look at it then?
        Not challenging you, just curious.

        For your second part, you're saying that players should be rated within what we should expect from their position?
        I think it should be less subjective like you said . Based more on stats . And yeah the second part I think it should be what the position should bring to the table. Say

        Centers- strength , rebounding , blocking will have more effect in rating compared to three point shooting.
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        First Team Defense !!!

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        • _Fernando
          MVP
          • Mar 2014
          • 235

          #5
          Re: Overall Rating Discussion

          Originally posted by mars5541
          I think it should be less subjective like you said . Based more on stats . And yeah the second part I think it should be what the position should bring to the table. Say

          Centers- strength , rebounding , blocking will have more effect in rating compared to three point shooting.
          Makes sense.

          How do you think a non traditional player for that position should be judged then, like a Dirk?
          TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

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          • Rockie_Fresh88
            Lockdown Defender
            • Oct 2011
            • 9621

            #6
            Re: Overall Rating Discussion

            Originally posted by NBALIVE_Fernando
            Makes sense.

            How do you think a non traditional player for that position should be judged then, like a Dirk?
            The same way IMO . He's not a defensive stopper but he does have post game . It would hurt his rating but that doesn't mean he won't be effective
            #1 Laker fan
            First Team Defense !!!

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            • _Fernando
              MVP
              • Mar 2014
              • 235

              #7
              Re: Overall Rating Discussion

              Originally posted by mars5541
              The same way IMO . He's not a defensive stopper but he does have post game . It would hurt his rating but that doesn't mean he won't be effective
              Cool. Thanks for letting me know what you were thinking!
              TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

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              • Ermolli
                MVP
                • Jul 2009
                • 3315

                #8
                Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                I somewhat agree that overall should be based on that but I'd go somewhat further than that since positions aren't as strict and traditional as before (I believe I said more or less the same in another topic). I don't know if you Fernando know or have heard about Football Manager but it's a great fútbol simulator, the game is basically a huge and deep franchise mode (which I'd highly recommend to take ideas for Dynasty Mode). In that game players don't have one single overall, instead they have overalls according to the different positions they are at least competent playing at (it can go from competent to natural depending on the playing time they've played in those particular positions and training to play there). Besides those overalls by positions they also have an overall by playing style which could translate to the NBA like pass-first point guard, scorer, defensive anchor, all-round. I'd say having both type of overall ratings would be great for Live since it'd add more strategy to the game when trying to assemble different lineups that combine players different playing styles that complement well between eachother to form a good team, something that could benefit greatly in Dynasty Mode, besides people could tend to choose choose players by the overall by style instead of an unique overall which doesn't tell the whole story of the player.

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                • _Fernando
                  MVP
                  • Mar 2014
                  • 235

                  #9
                  Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                  Originally posted by Ermolli
                  I somewhat agree that overall should be based on that but I'd go somewhat further than that since positions aren't as strict and traditional as before (I believe I said more or less the same in another topic). I don't know if you Fernando know or have heard about Football Manager but it's a great fútbol simulator, the game is basically a huge and deep franchise mode (which I'd highly recommend to take ideas for Dynasty Mode). In that game players don't have one single overall, instead they have overalls according to the different positions they are at least competent playing at (it can go from competent to natural depending on the playing time they've played in those particular positions and training to play there). Besides those overalls by positions they also have an overall by playing style which could translate to the NBA like pass-first point guard, scorer, defensive anchor, all-round. I'd say having both type of overall ratings would be great for Live since it'd add more strategy to the game when trying to assemble different lineups that combine players different playing styles that complement well between eachother to form a good team, something that could benefit greatly in Dynasty Mode, besides people could tend to choose choose players by the overall by style instead of an unique overall which doesn't tell the whole story of the player.
                  Great feedback as usual, Ermolli.

                  I've heard a lot about it, guess I'm going to have to sit down and dive into it.

                  So, what you're saying is the player's rating should be position dependent or be play-style dependent? For example, Ryan Anderson is a 76 PF but an 85 Stretch 4.

                  Let me know if I'm on track or if you'd like to provide another example of your own.
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                  • Ermolli
                    MVP
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 3315

                    #10
                    Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                    I'd say that what I had in mind, I don't know specifically how's the overall overall formula on Football Manager but I guess it's the combination of the different playing-styles the players are competent at or the combination of all the playing-styles a player can be at their position rewarding players by their versatility or with how great a player can be at one and at least good at the rest, might have to check the formula when I've time.

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                    • m1ke_nyc
                      10
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 3243

                      #11
                      Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                      Ive always said its not the overall rating that matters but the actual individual ratings that make up the overall rating. Actually I think there is no need for a overall rating. If Lebron James has a 90 overall rating and plays exactly like himself, but then someone says Lebron should be rated higher than a 90 then that means you have to bump up one of the individual ratings higher than it should be to accommodate that which is wrong. If it was up to me I would say either remove the overall rating from the game OR as mentioned in this thread the overall rating should fluctuate depending where the player is being asked to play. Dwight Howard might be a 90 post up C but he would be a 25 stretch C. What I think you guys can do is have a players overall go up or down based off the system the player is playing in. Blake Griffin would be rated 90 in Dantonis up and down system because he can get up and down the court and be effective in the pick and roll. Tim Duncan would be a 65-70 because his strengths are more in a half court set than the high tempo of a Dantoni offense. Either remove overall rating, or let it reflect based on position being played, and system.
                      It’s easier to do the right thing, than to explain why you didn’t.

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                      • _Fernando
                        MVP
                        • Mar 2014
                        • 235

                        #12
                        Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                        Originally posted by ratedmoney
                        Ive always said its not the overall rating that matters but the actual individual ratings that make up the overall rating. Actually I think there is no need for a overall rating. If Lebron James has a 90 overall rating and plays exactly like himself, but then someone says Lebron should be rated higher than a 90 then that means you have to bump up one of the individual ratings higher than it should be to accommodate that which is wrong. If it was up to me I would say either remove the overall rating from the game OR as mentioned in this thread the overall rating should fluctuate depending where the player is being asked to play. Dwight Howard might be a 90 post up C but he would be a 25 stretch C. What I think you guys can do is have a players overall go up or down based off the system the player is playing in. Blake Griffin would be rated 90 in Dantonis up and down system because he can get up and down the court and be effective in the pick and roll. Tim Duncan would be a 65-70 because his strengths are more in a half court set than the high tempo of a Dantoni offense. Either remove overall rating, or let it reflect based on position being played, and system.
                        I like your thinking!

                        My only concern is what if you're looking at a free agent screen and the player technically has no system because they're not on a team.

                        Thanks alot for this feedback and if you want to add anything else, I'm all ears
                        TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

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                        • Ermolli
                          MVP
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 3315

                          #13
                          Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                          In my opinion when looking for a player on free agency (thinking about Dynasty Mode) there should be their basic information (Height, Weight, Years Pro, etc), stats from previous seasons, playing-style rating from the previous team they were in and some individual ratings depending of much playing time they've had in the last year or so.

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                          • edwing
                            HAMBURGLAR
                            • May 2009
                            • 441

                            #14
                            Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                            Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing ratings on a letter scale. Although I realize that the vast majority of people wouldn't be in favour of it, having an A-D (or F) scale would get rid of the "Player A must be better than Player B because he is rated 1 point higher" arguments. I don't know if it is feasible to convert all of the overalls to a letter grade but you already see the competition kind of doing it with their individual ratings, though not with the overall.

                            I think that having a letter grade overall would be good to classify players in tiers, for example Westbrook and Rose would likely be grouped in the same tier, rather than perhaps being separated by 1 or 2 overall points (eg. an 89 vs. a 90) which would make fans of either player unhappy.

                            Now I wouldn't know how all of this would work - perhaps you would take the top 10 percentile of players based on overall and make them A-level or just do a simple convert from number overall to letter overall. An idea I thought of would be to have tiers as such:

                            S - 90+ - Superstar (could tie in with being untradeable, ie. the "Star" designation in the other game)
                            A - 80-89
                            B - 70-79
                            C - 60-69
                            D - 50-59
                            F - <50

                            Maybe even add in a "+" level (such as A+) that would correspond with being in a certain top percentile of a tier (or maybe just rated from 7-9 range within the tier). Again, it's just an idea I had - one that I know is not likely to come to fruition, but I do think that it is a way to differentiate the game from the competition, perhaps in a good way (less complaints about particular overalls - will force people to look at individual ratings and play styles).

                            This could also tie into the play style suggestion from above, where you could also have a general letter grade for each play style. Using the Howard example again, he would be an A post up centre but an F stretch centre. You could perhaps add a filter in the free agent screen that is able to separate these positions into these sub-categories, so that you wouldn't see a "B" or "C" rated Ryan Anderson PF, rather an "A" rated Ryan Anderson stretch PF. It would definitely make it easier for people to seek out a certain type of player that they want.

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                            • Live2K
                              Banned
                              • Feb 2014
                              • 155

                              #15
                              Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                              I usually care less about the overalls. I'm more interested in the attributes that affect the position and what ratings actually affect what in terms of gameplay.

                              Be more transparent and make differences stand out.

                              It's getting old seeing every big man dribble like a guard. Guards that can't dunk in a game throwing it down.

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