Overall Rating Discussion

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  • _Fernando
    MVP
    • Mar 2014
    • 235

    #16
    Re: Overall Rating Discussion

    Originally posted by Ermolli
    In my opinion when looking for a player on free agency (thinking about Dynasty Mode) there should be their basic information (Height, Weight, Years Pro, etc), stats from previous seasons, playing-style rating from the previous team they were in and some individual ratings depending of much playing time they've had in the last year or so.
    I'm hearing a lot of talk about playing style.

    I've already got a list in mind of what kinds of playing-styles are out there. I'd like to hear what you think the different playing styles are.
    TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

    Comment

    • _Fernando
      MVP
      • Mar 2014
      • 235

      #17
      Re: Overall Rating Discussion

      Originally posted by edwing
      Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing ratings on a letter scale. Although I realize that the vast majority of people wouldn't be in favour of it, having an A-D (or F) scale would get rid of the "Player A must be better than Player B because he is rated 1 point higher" arguments. I don't know if it is feasible to convert all of the overalls to a letter grade but you already see the competition kind of doing it with their individual ratings, though not with the overall.

      I think that having a letter grade overall would be good to classify players in tiers, for example Westbrook and Rose would likely be grouped in the same tier, rather than perhaps being separated by 1 or 2 overall points (eg. an 89 vs. a 90) which would make fans of either player unhappy.

      Now I wouldn't know how all of this would work - perhaps you would take the top 10 percentile of players based on overall and make them A-level or just do a simple convert from number overall to letter overall. An idea I thought of would be to have tiers as such:

      S - 90+ - Superstar (could tie in with being untradeable, ie. the "Star" designation in the other game)
      A - 80-89
      B - 70-79
      C - 60-69
      D - 50-59
      F - <50

      Maybe even add in a "+" level (such as A+) that would correspond with being in a certain top percentile of a tier (or maybe just rated from 7-9 range within the tier). Again, it's just an idea I had - one that I know is not likely to come to fruition, but I do think that it is a way to differentiate the game from the competition, perhaps in a good way (less complaints about particular overalls - will force people to look at individual ratings and play styles).

      This could also tie into the play style suggestion from above, where you could also have a general letter grade for each play style. Using the Howard example again, he would be an A post up centre but an F stretch centre. You could perhaps add a filter in the free agent screen that is able to separate these positions into these sub-categories, so that you wouldn't see a "B" or "C" rated Ryan Anderson PF, rather an "A" rated Ryan Anderson stretch PF. It would definitely make it easier for people to seek out a certain type of player that they want.
      Nice feedback. I like the tiers idea as a way to separate but, it gets tricky as the rosters change. A guy may still be a top 5% player but not be considered a star as the league gets watered down or vice versa, he is a star but not in the top 5% because there are so many great players at that point.

      Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked above. What do you think are the different playing styles that are out there? I have my own list but, I'd like to hear what you think.
      TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

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      • _Fernando
        MVP
        • Mar 2014
        • 235

        #18
        Re: Overall Rating Discussion

        Originally posted by Live2K
        I usually care less about the overalls. I'm more interested in the attributes that affect the position and what ratings actually affect what in terms of gameplay.

        Be more transparent and make differences stand out.

        It's getting old seeing every big man dribble like a guard. Guards that can't dunk in a game throwing it down.
        Working on that transparency and making the differences stand out!!

        Call me out when you see big guys dribbling too well and guards that are throwing it down like it's a dunk contest! I'll try and make the changes if they're not Ultimate team related.
        TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

        Comment

        • Rockie_Fresh88
          Lockdown Defender
          • Oct 2011
          • 9621

          #19
          Re: Overall Rating Discussion

          Originally posted by NBALIVE_Fernando
          Working on that transparency and making the differences stand out!!

          Call me out when you see big guys dribbling too well and guards that are throwing it down like it's a dunk contest! I'll try and make the changes if they're not Ultimate team related.
          You think it would be stupid for some ratings to be replaced with letter grades instead of numbers ? From F to A+?
          #1 Laker fan
          First Team Defense !!!

          Comment

          • Rockie_Fresh88
            Lockdown Defender
            • Oct 2011
            • 9621

            #20
            Re: Overall Rating Discussion

            As far as playing styles maybe by position too? Just some ideas

            Guards
            Pass first
            Slasher
            Spot-up

            Fowards
            Athletic
            Post-up
            Defensive
            Scorer

            Center
            Rebounding
            Post-up
            Athletic
            Defensive
            #1 Laker fan
            First Team Defense !!!

            Comment

            • jahswill
              Rookie
              • Dec 2004
              • 625

              #21
              Re: Overall Rating Discussion

              Originally posted by mars5541
              As far as playing styles maybe by position too? Just some ideas

              Guards
              Pass first
              Slasher
              Spot-up

              Fowards
              Athletic
              Post-up
              Defensive
              Scorer

              Center
              Rebounding
              Post-up
              Athletic
              Defensive
              Piggy backing off of what you suggested, maybe superstars would carry multiple styles. Ex. A superstar center could be athletic, rebounder and post-up. And the once in a lifetime players could possess all of the styles.
              JahsWill

              Comment

              • edwing
                HAMBURGLAR
                • May 2009
                • 441

                #22
                Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                Originally posted by NBALIVE_Fernando
                Nice feedback. I like the tiers idea as a way to separate but, it gets tricky as the rosters change. A guy may still be a top 5% player but not be considered a star as the league gets watered down or vice versa, he is a star but not in the top 5% because there are so many great players at that point.

                Now, I'll ask you the same question I asked above. What do you think are the different playing styles that are out there? I have my own list but, I'd like to hear what you think.
                Well in an ideal world the generated fantasy universe wouldn't end up with a skewed distribution like that. However I realize the difficulties in developing a solid long-term simulation of the league so the percentile tiers may be unreasonable to expect. What about the overall range (ie. 80-89 corresponding to an A) being used as a tiering system?

                As for the play styles, it all depends on how in-depth you guys want to go. You could have relatively general, basic styles like mars mentioned above or you could have more in-depth and comprehensive styles that do a bit better job of differentiating the players but perhaps at a cost of too many styles being offered. For example:

                Shooting Guards:

                Defensive (Tony Allen)
                3-and-D (Danny Green)
                Slasher (Demar Derozan)
                Spot Up Shooter/Pure Shooter (Ray Allen)
                Pure Scorer (Swaggy P)
                All-around (Kobe Bryant)

                Big Men:

                Stretch (Ryan Anderson)
                Defensive (Joakim Noah)
                High Motor (Amir Johnson)
                Rebounder (Reggie Evans)
                Post Up (Al Jefferson)
                Pick and Roll (Marcin Gortat)

                Again these are just ideas and are not exhaustive. I'm sure what I posted could definitely be improved on but you can see that the number of possible styles can get to a large number pretty quickly if you want to be thorough! There's definitely plenty of ways to go with this and I'm curious to see which way (if any) you and the rest of the developers go!

                Comment

                • _Fernando
                  MVP
                  • Mar 2014
                  • 235

                  #23
                  Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                  Originally posted by mars5541
                  You think it would be stupid for some ratings to be replaced with letter grades instead of numbers ? From F to A+?
                  I don't think it's stupid at all.

                  Sometimes you just want a quick overview of the player without wondering if an 84 is a big difference from an 81.

                  So, a grade system does make sense.

                  I'll bring it up around here for discussion.

                  Thanks.
                  TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

                  Comment

                  • _Fernando
                    MVP
                    • Mar 2014
                    • 235

                    #24
                    Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                    Originally posted by mars5541
                    As far as playing styles maybe by position too? Just some ideas

                    Guards
                    Pass first
                    Slasher
                    Spot-up

                    Fowards
                    Athletic
                    Post-up
                    Defensive
                    Scorer

                    Center
                    Rebounding
                    Post-up
                    Athletic
                    Defensive
                    I like. I like.

                    How do you think stars should be handled?
                    TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

                    Comment

                    • _Fernando
                      MVP
                      • Mar 2014
                      • 235

                      #25
                      Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                      Originally posted by jahswill
                      Piggy backing off of what you suggested, maybe superstars would carry multiple styles. Ex. A superstar center could be athletic, rebounder and post-up. And the once in a lifetime players could possess all of the styles.
                      That's the tricky part.

                      I like the labeling but, I'd hate to see it just turn into a list.

                      Need to figure out how to handle the stars if they're multi-faceted.
                      TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

                      Comment

                      • _Fernando
                        MVP
                        • Mar 2014
                        • 235

                        #26
                        Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                        Originally posted by edwing
                        Well in an ideal world the generated fantasy universe wouldn't end up with a skewed distribution like that. However I realize the difficulties in developing a solid long-term simulation of the league so the percentile tiers may be unreasonable to expect. What about the overall range (ie. 80-89 corresponding to an A) being used as a tiering system?

                        As for the play styles, it all depends on how in-depth you guys want to go. You could have relatively general, basic styles like mars mentioned above or you could have more in-depth and comprehensive styles that do a bit better job of differentiating the players but perhaps at a cost of too many styles being offered. For example:

                        Shooting Guards:

                        Defensive (Tony Allen)
                        3-and-D (Danny Green)
                        Slasher (Demar Derozan)
                        Spot Up Shooter/Pure Shooter (Ray Allen)
                        Pure Scorer (Swaggy P)
                        All-around (Kobe Bryant)

                        Big Men:

                        Stretch (Ryan Anderson)
                        Defensive (Joakim Noah)
                        High Motor (Amir Johnson)
                        Rebounder (Reggie Evans)
                        Post Up (Al Jefferson)
                        Pick and Roll (Marcin Gortat)

                        Again these are just ideas and are not exhaustive. I'm sure what I posted could definitely be improved on but you can see that the number of possible styles can get to a large number pretty quickly if you want to be thorough! There's definitely plenty of ways to go with this and I'm curious to see which way (if any) you and the rest of the developers go!
                        Nice! I haven't thought of a high motor!

                        What are some other ones you got?

                        I'd rather see too many than not enough.
                        TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

                        Comment

                        • m1ke_nyc
                          10
                          • Oct 2009
                          • 3243

                          #27
                          Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                          Originally posted by NBALIVE_Fernando
                          I like your thinking!

                          My only concern is what if you're looking at a free agent screen and the player technically has no system because they're not on a team.

                          Thanks alot for this feedback and if you want to add anything else, I'm all ears
                          When we view free agents what we should see are their strengths, weaknesses, character, accomplishments if any. You take that info and decide if it fits into the system your running. You shouldnt know how a player rates in your system until he actually has the chance to play in it. if you try to sign Melo with the Bulls in the offseason you cant say hes gonna be a 85 overall in the Bulls offense because he hasnt actually suited up for practice let alone a game. Now thats tricky when your talking bout video games but if you get what my main point is im all for moving away from overall ratings but they can work if done right. I believe overall ratings as we know them need a overhaul and it appears this is what your interested in doing. Im eager to see what comes of this. Im on board with the playstyle as well as team system having a major factor in the overall rating with it going up or down depending on team and role asked to play.
                          It’s easier to do the right thing, than to explain why you didn’t.

                          Comment

                          • _Fernando
                            MVP
                            • Mar 2014
                            • 235

                            #28
                            Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                            Originally posted by ratedmoney
                            When we view free agents what we should see are their strengths, weaknesses, character, accomplishments if any. You take that info and decide if it fits into the system your running. You shouldnt know how a player rates in your system until he actually has the chance to play in it. if you try to sign Melo with the Bulls in the offseason you cant say hes gonna be a 85 overall in the Bulls offense because he hasnt actually suited up for practice let alone a game. Now thats tricky when your talking bout video games but if you get what my main point is im all for moving away from overall ratings but they can work if done right. I believe overall ratings as we know them need a overhaul and it appears this is what your interested in doing. Im eager to see what comes of this. Im on board with the playstyle as well as team system having a major factor in the overall rating with it going up or down depending on team and role asked to play.
                            We've had conversations about team systems but, it always felt tricky to implement since you have to choose a system and then look at a player decide what role he could fit into and turn that into a number. I'm thinking player types could be the first step, eventually have a team system in the background that says what types of players would best be suited for that system.

                            But, good feedback. Definitely something to strive for in the future.
                            TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

                            Comment

                            • vtcrb
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Nov 2006
                              • 10294

                              #29
                              Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                              Overall Rating needs to disappear in My opinion. A players Individual Ratings should carry the Most weight in Free Agency. Athletic Players ALWAYS tend to get Higher Overall Rating which can Skew things ALOT.

                              Player Tendencies Determine HOW a player actually Plays on the Court. So getting their Tendencies right would be the 1st thing to do. I dont just mean Shooting Tendencies. There are a TON of Variables that lead into HOW a player plays on the court.

                              Just my 2 cents. I like to see how interactive things are in this thread. No Criticism, just working together to make things better. It is a Breathe of Fresh air.
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                              • _Fernando
                                MVP
                                • Mar 2014
                                • 235

                                #30
                                Re: Overall Rating Discussion

                                Originally posted by vtcrb
                                Overall Rating needs to disappear in My opinion. A players Individual Ratings should carry the Most weight in Free Agency. Athletic Players ALWAYS tend to get Higher Overall Rating which can Skew things ALOT.

                                Player Tendencies Determine HOW a player actually Plays on the Court. So getting their Tendencies right would be the 1st thing to do. I dont just mean Shooting Tendencies. There are a TON of Variables that lead into HOW a player plays on the court.

                                Just my 2 cents. I like to see how interactive things are in this thread. No Criticism, just working together to make things better. It is a Breathe of Fresh air.

                                And a lot of people on here agree with the notion that the overall shouldn't matter just as long as they play how they're supposed to. On the other hand, the overall rating is a great way to just see how good somebody is quickly. It's also used to sort lists for free agency and the game uses it for multiple things in the background. So, it won't be going away any time soon.

                                But, we can strive to make things better. What do you think should be weighted more in the overall rating?

                                Also, the data we receive from Synergy is used to drive those tendencies for individual players, drive direction, shooting areas, where and how to post, etc.

                                What other tendencies did you have in mind?
                                TWITTER - FernandoJ_Rod

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