NBA Live 18 Videos Released

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

noshun to answer question 3 in your previous post, "How can you have stiff movement and good gameplay?"

Well, with today's technology there are limitations to the animation system. You either commit to a static animation which may look good but will be slower to break out of or lock you in entirely. OR have something more dynamic which can react quicker to player input but will result in the animation looking jerky.

Spoiler

What ISN'T acceptable is to have stiff animations in a marketing video, where they can use and abuse camera angles all day to make something look good.

I have always liked this dude ThaLiveKing's Live videos on YouTube way more than what the EA marketing team puts out. And he is doing his with real game footage and not all the fancy marketing video tools the Live team owns.

Anyway, I believe Live is committed to having the game "feel" right, and get the player in the right position facing the right angles and responding the way they should to inputs, and THEN making the animations fit that mold. The problem is, they've taken this approach and always failed to deliver on a strong gameplay experience, which is no bueno.

This is their big push. You are right it may be the last Live if it doesn't sell. And even if it does sell, I think the deal 2K struck with the NBA for eSports really puts a modest size nail in Live's coffin. We'll see how that plays out though.

Then why is it that my favorite baseball games (Pro Yakyuu Spirits, Jikkyou Powerful Pros) has much more realistic animations, smoother animations, and better response to user input than MLB the Show? The throwing angle to first, second, third base, and home plate are different. If I wanted to break free from throwing to first base and instead throw to any other plate just for the sake of doing it despite it not being the correct play, the animation plays out realistically, smooth and response to user input is immediate.

My guess is the limitations are based on how many transitional animations the animators are willing to create. Pose A to Pose B. If the animator choose to take a shortcut and create a total of #3 transitions and call it a wrap, then that's what you're going to get. If the animator chooses to create a total of #10 potential transitional outcomes from Pose A to Pose B, then there will be greater variety.

But what's stopping the animators from creating a smooth realistic animation with just transition #1 from Pose A to Pose B.

To be a bit more specific, the players don't move with explosiveness when driving the paint is one major concern that I see with the trailer. The only realistic explosiveness captured was the Harden step back.

[FerdBrown]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Then why is it that my favorite baseball games (Pro Yakyuu Spirits, Jikkyou Powerful Pros) has much more realistic animations, smoother animations, and better response to user input than MLB the Show? The throwing angle to first, second, third base, and home plate are different. If I wanted to break free from throwing to first base and instead throw to any other plate just for the sake of doing it despite it not being the correct play, the animation plays out realistically, smooth and response to user input is immediate.



My guess is the limitations are based on how many transitional animations the animators are willing to create. Pose A to Pose B. If the animator choose to take a shortcut and create a total of #3 transitions and call it a wrap, then that's what you're going to get. If the animator chooses to create a total of #10 potential transitional outcomes from Pose A to Pose B, then there will be greater variety.



But what's stopping the animators from creating a smooth realistic animation with just transition #1 from Pose A to Pose B.



To be a bit more specific, the players don't move with explosiveness when driving the paint is one major concern that I see with the trailer. The only realistic explosiveness captured was the Harden step back.

Ok. I admit I'm not a techie. I just buy a game I want to buy. I'm just a... consumer.

Salute to your technical expertise guys on how the game should he developed. I'm sorry I cannot add value to that discussion.

[noshun]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

noshun to answer question 3 in your previous post, "How can you have stiff movement and good gameplay?"

Well, with today's technology there are limitations to the animation system. You either commit to a static animation which may look good but will be slower to break out of or lock you in entirely. OR have something more dynamic which can react quicker to player input but will result in the animation looking jerky.

What ISN'T acceptable is to have stiff animations in a marketing video, where they can use and abuse camera angles all day to make something look good.

I have always liked this dude ThaLiveKing's Live videos on YouTube way more than what the EA marketing team puts out. And he is doing his with real game footage and not all the fancy marketing video tools the Live team owns.

Anyway, I believe Live is committed to having the game "feel" right, and get the player in the right position facing the right angles and responding the way they should to inputs, and THEN making the animations fit that mold. The problem is, they've taken this approach and always failed to deliver on a strong gameplay experience, which is no bueno.

This is their big push. You are right it may be the last Live if it doesn't sell. And even if it does sell, I think the deal 2K struck with the NBA for eSports really puts a modest size nail in Live's coffin. We'll see how that plays out though.

Then why is it that my favorite baseball games (Pro Yakyuu Spirits, Jikkyou Powerful Pros) has much more realistic animations, smoother animations, and better response to user input than MLB the Show? The throwing angle to first, second, third base, and home plate are different. If I wanted to break free from throwing to first base and instead throw to any other plate just for the sake of doing it despite it not being the correct play, the animation plays out realistically, smooth and response to user input is immediate.

My guess is the limitations are based on how many transitional animations the animators are willing to create. Pose A to Pose B. If the animator choose to take a shortcut and create a total of #3 transitions and call it a wrap, then that's what you're going to get. If the animator chooses to create a total of #10 potential transitional outcomes from Pose A to Pose B, then there will be greater variety.

But what's stopping the animators from creating a smooth realistic animation with just transition #1 from Pose A to Pose B.

To be a bit more specific, the players don't move with explosiveness when driving the paint is one major concern that I see with the trailer. The only realistic explosiveness captured was the Harden step back.

I animate, so I know what you're referring too. There's 2 things to animation:


1. Keyframes
2. In-betweens


What EA does is allow you to trigger the next keyframe to a new animation instead of letting the inbetween play out. It creates a "popping" effect and looks bad.
For those that don't understand its the equivalent of taking a soft cover book and randomly putting 2 pieces of paper in the book and then flipping the pages with your thumb. When you view it and see the 2 papers, it looks out of place creating that pop you see.
That's what I see in that Harden step back, but Live devs thinks it looks amazing. 2 years off and they're still cutting corners on the animation end, then they're going to try to blend mocap with it. Disney, Pixar or any other studio that specializes in animation would've redone the animations completely, removed them, or let go of the animators. Its dispelling believable human movement..

[FerdBrown]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

If you compare with Pixar, hands down and feet up their works are flawless. Though wondering if those same animation engines be used for games? It would look like a cinematic game. Which is also good.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

I animate, so I know what you're referring too. There's 2 things to animation:


1. Keyframes
2. In-betweens


What EA does is allow you to trigger the next keyframe to a new animation instead of letting the inbetween play out. It creates a "popping" effect and looks bad.

Spoiler

For those that don't understand its the equivalent of taking a soft cover book and randomly putting 2 pieces of paper in the book and then flipping the pages with your thumb. When you view it and see the 2 papers, it looks out of place creating that pop you see.
That's what I see in that Harden step back, but Live devs thinks it looks amazing. 2 years off and they're still cutting corners on the animation end, then they're going to try to blend mocap with it. Disney, Pixar or any other studio that specializes in animation would've redone the animations completely, removed them, or let go of the animators. Its dispelling believable human movement..

Spoiler

Yes, those are the two words that completely slipped my mind ... key frames and in betweens.

If you compare with Pixar, hands down and feet up their works are flawless. Though wondering if those same animation engines be used for games? It would look like a cinematic game. Which is also good.

From my understanding, it really doesn't have anything to do with the "animation engine" so to speak. It all boils down to the animators themselves. How the animation plays out all stems from what the animators do.

Blender is a free 3D animation program, open source, for anyone to use. Maya is the professional version. Pixar uses their own proprietary 3D animation software but the fundamentals are all the same.

Run any 3d animated shorts on youtube and you can see the different level of quality, some very amateurish and some very professional looking ones.

The following three shorts are all done in Blender (completely free to download and use). Run a youtube search for other blender animated works.


Laundromat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drLdsOnh7nI&t=216s

Agent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0zPOpADL4

Psychogenesis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzjQuFrlnU4

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Darn youtube embed, how do I delete the embed. It's messing up the website.

EDIT: Alright, finally fixed the above. Removed the embedded video and just went with direct youtube links.

[FerdBrown]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Darn youtube embed, how do I delete the embed. It's messing up the website.

I can't open your links, mate.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

I can't open your links, mate.

Stupid youtube links and embedding messes things up. I'm trying to edit my above post and can't hit the edit button because the youtube video is taking up the entire screen. Here are the links:

All three are created solely using blender. Last one has poor animations. It basically all comes down to the animator rather than just the software. Pixar uses their own proprietary 3D animation software while most other companies uses the professional grade annual subscription Maya (which was once available to purchase as a non-subscription based software). I think Pixar still may sort of partly use the software Maya as well.

Blender free download - 3d animation software.

https://www.blender.org/

The stuff on youtube done in Blender from amateurs doesn't look that great because usually it's individuals who haven't gone through animation training uses because it's completely free. Most animation students uses Maya. But the process of creating animation is still the same, using keyframes, in betweens, etc.

Laundromat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drLdsOnh7nI&t=216s

Agent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0zPOpADL4

Psychogenesis (poorly done animations, still commendable for being only a one man work, but requires a lot of refinement, and simply overall reworking of the animations).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzjQuFrlnU4

EDIT #1: In addition to kind of get an understanding or sense of what it would require to "polish" or "refine" animations, run a search on youtube for "animation mentor animation feedback" or something like that.

Example:
11 Second Club: "Psych" Animation Feedback -- April 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d7ZZUIsryw

11 Second Club: Stewart Animation Feedback -- June 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGCvJwCX3ks

EDIT #2:
Here's another example where the animations is poorly done. Still commendable because 3D animation is time consuming and difficult
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMjfAOkUR58


One of the very important concepts to get across and deliver in anyone's animations is "weight."

3D Animation Weight Pull/Push
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bklPD7U9XIw

Bottom line: It all comes down to the animator, rather than the animation software because all the animation software basically uses the same exact "fundamentals" to create the animation .... "Keyframes" and "inbetweens" including "spacing" and "timing."

Look up 12 principles of animations for reference. Even though one may have an understanding for all 12 principles, trying to execute those 12 principles in a sense determines your ability as an animator to a certain extent.

12 Principles of Animation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDqjIdI4bF4


EDIT #3: Here's an animation done in Maya - the professional grade 3d Animation software where the animation unfortunately looks very amateurish.

Funny 3D Animation Farmer Johns Bad Day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XhFpMMPy5s

It basically comes down to the animator and what they can do. You can create a terrible product with a great software.

[binga30]

NBA Live in the 90s was dope, how did they fall down so much? Did all the EA guys go work for 2K? You'd think after how good Fifa is, this game should be amazing also.

[jadert]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

You or others aren't going to tell me what to buy or what to like. I like what I see with Live 18. I don't care about reviews, sales, etc. It's irrelevant. The point of a video game is to have fun, relieve stress, play with friends, etc. If I get what I want personally, why should I care about what you guys think? Some people have higher standards. Some people don't need bells and whistles to make them happy. Some have unrealistic expectations. I want a fun game and I feel this game will be. We will see on June 10 how this game is, so I think its best we hold back until we get more footage.

I don't think I told you what to buy. You are more than welcome to buy Live if you like it. The only problem is if recurring issues and bad sales continue to occur, you may not have a Live to buy at some point. I was on this board a long time when Live was KING of sim basketball. Now it seems more of a niche market for enthusiasts.

[Harrypotheadd]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Not sure how true this is, but I'm hearing rumors that EA put that teaser out to fool us into believing that it's "still the same ole Live" and to eventually catch us off guard and really exceed expectations for EA Play

[SeaTownGamer]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Not sure how true this is, but I'm hearing rumors that EA put that teaser out to fool us into believing that it's "still the same ole Live" and to eventually catch us off guard and really exceed expectations for EA Play

I highly doubt that. That is lame and stupid if they did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lordfr33]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Not sure how true this is, but I'm hearing rumors that EA put that teaser out to fool us into believing that it's "still the same ole Live" and to eventually catch us off guard and really exceed expectations for EA Play

Stop it!....

[Gosens6]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Not sure how true this is, but I'm hearing rumors that EA put that teaser out to fool us into believing that it's "still the same ole Live" and to eventually catch us off guard and really exceed expectations for EA Play

No need for the tin foil conspiracies, honestly. What we saw in the trailer is what we're getting at EA Play.

First impressions are vital, and it rings true here as well. Why showcase something that doesn't look very impressive, just to risk people being so turned off they don't even tune into EA Play? Wouldn't make a lick of sense.

[FerdBrown]

Re: NBA Live 18 Videos Released

Not sure how true this is, but I'm hearing rumors that EA put that teaser out to fool us into believing that it's "still the same ole Live" and to eventually catch us off guard and really exceed expectations for EA Play

If it's not a fact or actionable item, stop creating it. Don't spread so called rumors here. It's a disease.