Where are all the......

[Pointguard]

Re: Where are all the......

If your out there somewhere Brankles.....


First off we must look at what Mr. Buss and the LA Organization faced. We all know what happened when they chose Kobe over Shaq. I dont think they got a good deal and Shaq's worth more, but that's not even my point.

Let's say LA says Kobe, if you dont want Shaq here sorry? Phil jackson? Yea he's staying too. They tell him he can come back, they will be more than willing to S&T him, but whatever happens, Shaq's staying.

Then what happens. Kone thinks. Well I obviously dont want to play with Shaq or for Phil. Since LA chooses Shaq over Kobe, dont you think that Kobe then wants to show everyone that he's the reason LA won those rings (ridiculous nonetheless) and that picking Shaq over Kobe is a bad move.

If Kobe is smart, (despite him motives and thinking, he's a smart kid) Kobe relaizes that if he simply signs with the Los Angelos Clippers, who by the way are willing to move the entire organization for him. he can stay in the same house, he can keep all his friends, he doesn't have to move his family across country if he goes to the Clippers.

Going to the Clippers allow shim to forma great 3 man team of Brand-Maggette-Kobe with youngsters like Jaric, Livingston, Kamen and Wilcox to fit around them. They are a playoff team next year easily (They finsihed 10th this season with a heck of a lot of injuries).

Why did I bring the Clippers up? Some people like to think Kobe would have accepted a S&T, yet why would he do that. If LA keeps Shaq and Kobes goes to the Clippers, LA is left with Shaq, GP and Fisher as its best players. FIsher is a FA and still prob. goes to GS for the outrageous contract and GP doesn't fit in well in the triangle. LA is still over the cap and they've role players suck.

Yea they'd have a 26th pick to add someone and they'd have the MLE to get someone but it unknown if they can get anyone.

They still take Sasha Vujacic wiht their pick, as it seemed at the time they've liked him for 2 years now (Why? I dont know). He'd not ready to contribute. Now they could use the MLE on guys like Tenton Hassell or another solid FA, but the team is still very thin, has an aging Shaq, they'd be lucky to get a starter with the MLE and have many of many holes.

Yea, they make the playoffs, as a 5th-7th seed and MAYBE make it to the 2nd round, but I dont see how they get to the conference finals. The team is old, over the cap and they'll be getting picks in the draft in the 20's.

Your telling me you take...

PG- Gary Payton l Tierre Brown
SG- Tenton Hassell l Kareem Rush
SF- Luke Walton l Devean George
PF- Slava Medvadenko l Brain Cook
C- Shaquille O'Neal l ??????

Does that team scary you? Now? In the Future? Will they get any better? Will they get any worse?



If anyone watched tonight's game, you saw Shaq's not capable of carrying a team BY HIMSELF. Damon Jones, Eddie Jones, Udonis Haslem, Rusual Butler, Knyon Dooling and Alonzo Mourning is a much better cast than that team above. And that's with drawing Dwyane Wade.

Maybe Buss could have gottn more for Shaq? Who knows. None of us are GM and know what offers were indeed fact and what ones where false. Yet anyone suggesting that you dont trade Shaq at all and watch and play to see what Kobe does takes a huge risk.

At the very least the team LA has now is young and has room to grow. The team above is a logn way from a championship and I dont seen them getting better.

[jmood88]

Re: Where are all the......

Who are you?

[23]

Re: Where are all the......

[QUOTE=Pointguard]If your out there somewhere Brankles.....

First off we must look at what Mr. Buss and the LA Organization faced. We all know what happened when they chose Kobe over Shaq. I dont think they got a good deal and Shaq's worth more, but that's not even my point.

In all actuality, its not what they were faced with, moreso how it was handled.

Let's say LA says Kobe, if you dont want Shaq here sorry? Phil jackson? Yea he's staying too. They tell him he can come back, they will be more than willing to S&T him, but whatever happens, Shaq's staying.

Solid foundation, and none of the problems they have now... sounds good.

Then what happens. Kone thinks. Well I obviously dont want to play with Shaq or for Phil. Since LA chooses Shaq over Kobe, dont you think that Kobe then wants to show everyone that he's the reason LA won those rings (ridiculous nonetheless) and that picking Shaq over Kobe is a bad move.

So far picking Kobe over Shaq was the bad move.

If Kobe is smart, (despite him motives and thinking, he's a smart kid) Kobe relaizes that if he simply signs with the Los Angelos Clippers, who by the way are willing to move the entire organization for him. he can stay in the same house, he can keep all his friends, he doesn't have to move his family across country if he goes to the Clippers.

I think all along he should have went on ahead to the Clips.. much better teammates would have been awaiting him, and no S&T needed. They still offered him 100 million.

Going to the Clippers allow shim to forma great 3 man team of Brand-Maggette-Kobe with youngsters like Jaric, Livingston, Kamen and Wilcox to fit around them. They are a playoff team next year easily (They finsihed 10th this season with a heck of a lot of injuries).

I totally agree, and it sets the stage for some great basketball in Los Angeles.

Why did I bring the Clippers up? Some people like to think Kobe would have accepted a S&T, yet why would he do that. If LA keeps Shaq and Kobes goes to the Clippers, LA is left with Shaq, GP and Fisher as its best players. FIsher is a FA and still prob. goes to GS for the outrageous contract and GP doesn't fit in well in the triangle. LA is still over the cap and they've role players suck.

GP had trade value, so did Fox, Malone would most likely be here also. Fisher gone.. the only max money you have on the books is Shaq, which isnt a bad start. You dont want him... in 2 years, he's off the books, you keep him, this is where it gets interesting.

Yea they'd have a 26th pick to add someone and they'd have the MLE to get someone but it unknown if they can get anyone.

They'd have more than that..

They still take Sasha Vujacic wiht their pick, as it seemed at the time they've liked him for 2 years now (Why? I dont know). He'd not ready to contribute. Now they could use the MLE on guys like Tenton Hassell or another solid FA, but the team is still very thin, has an aging Shaq, they'd be lucky to get a starter with the MLE and have many of many holes.

They dont take Sasha, because neither Shaq nor Phil would make that move. Remember Mitch did nothing until Shaq left.

Yea, they make the playoffs, as a 5th-7th seed and MAYBE make it to the 2nd round, but I dont see how they get to the conference finals. The team is old, over the cap and they'll be getting picks in the draft in the 20's.

I think you're speaking on the matter without 1st hand knowledge of the acqusitions and trades that would have taken place.

Your telling me you take...

PG- Gary Payton l Tierre Brown
SG- Tenton Hassell l Kareem Rush
SF- Luke Walton l Devean George
PF- Slava Medvadenko l Brain Cook
C- Shaquille O'Neal l ??????

Does that team scary you? Now? In the Future? Will they get any better? Will they get any worse?

No you dont take this team, because that team would never play on the same floor together... you forget a few things, and this is the interesting part.

Damon Jones..
06 Haslem is a posibilty
Dooling
Zo
etc...

Thats the difference therein. Players love Shaq. Players want to play with Shaq. Veterans. They take pay cuts, and sign minimum deals to be on his team. Shaq brought in some players as well as Phil when they were there. You have those 2 and you dont have the incompetence of Mitch Kupcake as the heartless Gm yes man.

If anyone watched tonight's game, you saw Shaq's not capable of carrying a team BY HIMSELF. Damon Jones, Eddie Jones, Udonis Haslem, Rusual Butler, Knyon Dooling and Alonzo Mourning is a much better cast than that team above. And that's with drawing Dwyane Wade.

Oh its quite obvious, especially in last years finals... Look, no one player can do anything alone against an entire team. Whats with the captain obvious statements?

Maybe Buss could have gottn more for Shaq? Who knows. None of us are GM and know what offers were indeed fact and what ones where false. Yet anyone suggesting that you dont trade Shaq at all and watch and play to see what Kobe does takes a huge risk.

Oh there would have been better deals than paying a balky knee Brian Grant the max for 3 years, but the move was made to placate Kobe, and that's not a question in anyone's mind, except those who choose to ignore exactly what transpired.

At the very least the team LA has now is young and has room to grow. The team above is a logn way from a championship and I dont seen them getting better.

This current team although it underacheived, will not ever win a championship it its current form. Young or not, there was no chemistry, no real identity, no defense, no heart, no direction, and kobe was simply assigned far too many tasks whether he asked for them or not.

[Dynasty4Kobe]

Re: Where are all the......

[QUOTE=KDRE]

If your out there somewhere Brankles.....




In all actuality, its not what they were faced with, moreso how it was handled.




Solid foundation, and none of the problems they have now... sounds good.




So far picking Kobe over Shaq was the bad move.



I think all along he should have went on ahead to the Clips.. much better teammates would have been awaiting him, and no S&T needed. They still offered him 100 million.



I totally agree, and it sets the stage for some great basketball in Los Angeles.




GP had trade value, so did Fox, Malone would most likely be here also. Fisher gone.. the only max money you have on the books is Shaq, which isnt a bad start. You dont want him... in 2 years, he's off the books, you keep him, this is where it gets interesting.




They'd have more than that..




They dont take Sasha, because neither Shaq nor Phil would make that move. Remember Mitch did nothing until Shaq left.





I think you're speaking on the matter without 1st hand knowledge of the acqusitions and trades that would have taken place.



No you dont take this team, because that team would never play on the same floor together... you forget a few things, and this is the interesting part.

Damon Jones..
06 Haslem is a posibilty
Dooling
Zo
etc...

Thats the difference therein. Players love Shaq. Players want to play with Shaq. Veterans. They take pay cuts, and sign minimum deals to be on his team. Shaq brought in some players as well as Phil when they were there. You have those 2 and you dont have the incompetence of Mitch Kupcake as the heartless Gm yes man.





Oh its quite obvious, especially in last years finals... Look, no one player can do anything alone against an entire team. Whats with the captain obvious statements?




Oh there would have been better deals than paying a balky knee Brian Grant the max for 3 years, but the move was made to placate Kobe, and that's not a question in anyone's mind, except those who choose to ignore exactly what transpired.



This current team although it underacheived, will not ever win a championship it its current form. Young or not, there was no chemistry, no real identity, no defense, no heart, no direction, and kobe was simply assigned far too many tasks whether he asked for them or not.

You know you are a knowledgeable poster when you've got KDRE breaking down and discussing your ideas without any flamewars right from the get-go. Welcome to the boards.

[driddy]

Re: Where are all the......

How convienient for YOU to come in and take shots at Shaq after a Miami lost with a shorthanded team.. No matter, as Shaq will remain an all time great reguardless, and while Kobe and his haters, and apologists are waiting for next season, we're all watching Shaq in the conference Finals AGAIN

Do you gloss over other posters you agree with(of course you do)? Who started this thread, and honestly (if it is possible) can you say that no one in here took shots at Kobe (who isn't even playing right now)? How convenient is that? I notice how easy it is to take shots at the Lakers (really you haters can't help yourselves) but your panties get wadded the moment Shaq can't cash the checks yall have written for him. In the end, if Shaq doesn't win the ring he promised, threads like this will be mute. Those of you on the anti-Kobe brigade may not understand that, but those of us in the Laker foxhole will. In the end, Laker fans are hurting right now, but some of us agree with Scoop Jackson's post at ESPN, so best believe we're watching every game that Shaq comes up short, its like therapy for not having a team in the mix this year.

In a way, you can say we can now empathize with the Kobe haters, as many of us are now Shaq haters.

Oh, and by the end of their careers, Kobe and Shaq will be all time greats. As much as you care to not admit it. So while the Shaq apologists/Kobe haters attempt to rewrite history, Laker fans will remember what a dynamic duo Shaq and Kobe were, both listed by the GM's as the best players at their positions.

[driddy]

Re: Where are all the......

[QUOTE=KDRE]

If your out there somewhere
Thats the difference therein. Players love Shaq. Players want to play with Shaq. Veterans. They take pay cuts, and sign minimum deals to be on his team. Shaq brought in some players as well as Phil when they were there. You have those 2 and you dont have the incompetence of Mitch Kupcake as the heartless Gm yes man.

.

I saw someone make this point on a listserv I frequent and it got broken down. I'll spare everyone the details, but basically only Malone/Payton has done this. And not for Shaq as much as the team that was assembled around Shaq with Phil Jackson at the helm. If we look at facts ( I know not your strong point, but follow me here)

Kendall Gill took a 6 mil salary with New Jersey (when they were struggling) over the Lakers 2 mil offer.

Horry left because all the Lakers could offer was MLE.

People now point to Alonzo as if he was recruited by Shaq and just joined up. I say that was more a case of Alonzo coming back to Pat Riley's heat. He had unfinished business there, and knowing that he would come off of the bench each night while New Jersey's buyout was in his bank account made accepting 0 dollars more feasible. The bottom line is the Lakers would not have had players like Alonzo coming over to them. Malone still may have retired, Fox was done, Payton wasn't fitting into the offense, and Fisher still would have taken the bigger contract to play for the Warriors. Maybe Payton would have been shipped for a point guard, but the Lakers would still have issues defending the west, as Shaq cant spend his time defending the other team's best player or risk getting into early foul trouble.

[Vince]

Re: Where are all the......

Kupchak could've gotten something along the lines of Ratliff, Randolph and I believe Darius Miles. I don't remember the players, but I remember seeing an article where he didn't take a deal like this from the Blazers.

There were also rumors that Riles might have actually given them Dwyane Wade. I saw it on SI, but I'm not sure how true they were.

[Mofasa]

Re: Where are all the......

This thread is really funny to me....

Do people really think of why Shaq left/was traded from LA.

Kobe was now 'the man', Shaq didn't like that, which is fair enough, so he wanted out. Simple, it was better to trade shaq sooner than later cause the longer he stayed in LA the more his trade value would have droped.

But lets say they keep Shaq and let kobe go....(there is no way kobe would have done a sign and trade after Buss choose to keep shaq) LA would NOT have the Shaq that Miami has now, the only thing that made shaq get in shape was the trade... what does that leave LA with???

A few more years in the playoffs (2-3 tops) and there is noway they win a title then what...Shaq's body finally gives way and now LA has nothing, they now have to find a franchise player and go through many years of rebuilding...

With keeping kobe they are already half way there...

Who know what the future holds...3-4 years from now where do you see LA and the Heat???? THAT is what will determine if this was the right choice or not.

[Dynasty4Kobe]

Re: Where are all the......

Kupchak could've gotten something along the lines of Ratliff, Randolph and I believe Darius Miles. I don't remember the players, but I remember seeing an article where he didn't take a deal like this from the Blazers.

There were also rumors that Riles might have actually given them Dwyane Wade. I saw it on SI, but I'm not sure how true they were.

I doubt Riley would have done that, but even if he did make the offer, Shaq wouldn't have taken it. Remember, Shaq was the one controlling the trade. He had the option to opt out the following year, which is why most teams weren't willing to trade their young stars for Shaq who would've left them anyway. If Shaq saw that Wade wouldn't be on the team, he would have told Miami that he would leave their organization the following year, which is enough for Miami to keep Wade.

[RubenDouglas]

Re: Where are all the......

This thread is really funny to me....

Do people really think of why Shaq left/was traded from LA.

Kobe was now 'the man', Shaq didn't like that, which is fare enough, so he wanted out. Simple, it was better to trade shaq sooner than later cause the longer he stayed in LA the more his trade value would have droped.

I feel that Buss felt Kobe was the future of the program, and wanted to build around him. He obviously didnt like Shaq and Phil, so they were the first few to go.... Its now KObes team. I blame Buss for letting kobe steer the reins of the program.

[Pointguard]

Re: Where are all the......

GP had trade value, so did Fox, Malone would most likely be here also. Fisher gone.. the only max money you have on the books is Shaq, which isnt a bad start. You dont want him... in 2 years, he's off the books, you keep him, this is where it gets interesting.

Yes, GP has value. More-so his contract along with his experience could have been helpful to a team that is on the verge of contending.

Fox obvious did with his expiring contract.

Malone, its basically speculation. Maybe he would have came back if Shaq was there and Kobe wasn't. You could argue he had the chance to go to both MIA and SA this season and didn't, so he prob. wouldn't haven been healthy. And then you can look at it as, he wanted to come back as a Laker I believe.

Who really knows though.

As far as Shaq. Yes, he's the only MAX guy but the guy takes up 29.5 million. Add Fox and GP's salary of roughly 9 million combined on the cap, George making 4-5 million and all the other role players and small contracts and LA is still over the cap and can only use the MLE.

They'd have more than that..

Besides trading, no they only had a 26th pick in the draft and the MLE (and LLE if you want to throw that into the mix) to aquire players.

They had a few expiring contracts to trade but no young talent.

They dont take Sasha, because neither Shaq nor Phil would make that move. Remember Mitch did nothing until Shaq left.

Who knows. Mitch Kupcake obviously liked him a lot (for 2 years now) and Sasha was picked before Shaq was traded. Either way, looking back at the draft, their weren't many better options.

Anderson Vajero looks like a better pick, but would they even have taken him? No one thought he'd be the solid backup he is now then (or not many). The only other guy is Beno Udrih and again, not many knew he could be a good backup his rookie season. Considering the fact Sasha was liked by the LA organization, I doubt they take another european.

But again, this is unknown to of us.

I think you're speaking on the matter without 1st hand knowledge of the acqusitions and trades that would have taken place.

Fair enough. Its a guessing game to the trades that could have been made and FA signings that could have occured. Who knows. But with the resources they had, I dont see how that team wins more than 58 games (Dallas finsihed 4th in the conference with 58 wins).

No you dont take this team, because that team would never play on the same floor together... you forget a few things, and this is the interesting part.

Damon Jones..
06 Haslem is a posibilty
Dooling
Zo
etc...

Thats the difference therein. Players love Shaq. Players want to play with Shaq. Veterans. They take pay cuts, and sign minimum deals to be on his team. Shaq brought in some players as well as Phil when they were there. You have those 2 and you dont have the incompetence of Mitch Kupcake as the heartless Gm yes man.

As I said above, who knows who they could have gotten.

I doubt they get Haslem. He was basically an unknown back then and would have remianed in MIA (did he play their the season before?).

My point is they had 4.9 million and 1.7 million to get players. Maybe they get two guys to split up the MLE, or maybe not.

Oh its quite obvious, especially in last years finals... Look, no one player can do anything alone against an entire team. Whats with the captain obvious statements?

Shaq's supporting cast would be luck to be as good as Miami's is I feel. Is LA kept Shaq and Kobe goes to the Clip-Show, LA's not gonna be able to add enough guys to even mimic Miami's supporting cast (not including Wade).

And yes SHAQ cant do it by himself. Neither could Kobe. Shaq having D-Wade in Miami is a blessing for him.

The point is your not going to be able to get someone else in there that's gonna be that #2 option I dont think.

Oh there would have been better deals than paying a balky knee Brian Grant the max for 3 years, but the move was made to placate Kobe, and that's not a question in anyone's mind, except those who choose to ignore exactly what transpired.

Shaq's contract is no piece of cake either. He may be the best player in the game today, but he's over-paided. They guy makes 10 more million than the next highest paid basketball player in the NBA. Most of today's quote on quote Superstars make LESS THAN HALF of what Shaq makes. Shaq takes up nearly 3/4's of a team cap room.

Anyways, Grant's contract is bad. No one denies that. Odom, Butler and the pick have some value in there. Is it enough for Shaq? Probably not and we've already agreed on that, but the other deals available might not be any better. You cant tell me there was a betetr deal out there. Say the deal they made was bad and I wont say a word, but if you think there was definately a better deal for them to make, its unknown.

And Yes, the move was made to keep Kobe, which keeping Kobe and getting something for Shaq seems a whole lot better than keeping Shaq and losing Kobe for nothing, not even gaining cap room in the process.

This current team although it underacheived, will not ever win a championship it its current form. Young or not, there was no chemistry, no real identity, no defense, no heart, no direction, and kobe was simply assigned far too many tasks whether he asked for them or not.

I dont doubt that. I think Odom should be traded. I like how Kobe played when odom was not in the lineup and he had Butler on his wing. I believe they are becoming good friends off the court and their chemsitry (or more-so Kobe's ability to share the rock) was mcuh better than with Odom.

Yet they have many pieces now that they can tarde for to get to championship form. That's my point. Kobe's still 25 or 26 and has many good years left in him. They have 10 million in expiring contracts, a 24 year old versitle swign man in Odom, a 25 year old swing man in Butler and a top 10 pick to work with.

They can make something happen with that. Likewise, keeping Shaq, you have just expiring contracts to trade to get better, because that team (even if they get Zo, Dooling, Haslem) is not winning a championship int he next fw years. The draft pick they get will be in the 20's and their room to improve and make changes is severely limited.

[Pointguard]

Re: Where are all the......

Kupchak could've gotten something along the lines of Ratliff, Randolph and I believe Darius Miles. I don't remember the players, but I remember seeing an article where he didn't take a deal like this from the Blazers.

There were also rumors that Riles might have actually given them Dwyane Wade. I saw it on SI, but I'm not sure how true they were.

Miami smartly said No to D-Wade being involved in the trade everytime LA asked. LA management and Pat Riley have said that clearly.

As far as the POR offer, again we dont know if its true. Maybe it was, but again maybe it wasn't.

[Sarah]

Re: Where are all the......

Okay, if I was Mr. Mitch, I would have traded Kobe for T-Mac the year before since T-Mac has been dying to join a championship team. And Malone and Payton would have stayed together this year and the team would still be mostly intact. Sign Shaq for 3 years and viola. Shaq retires, T-Mac holds the torch.

[Vince]

Re: Where are all the......

I would have traded Kobe for T-Mac the year before since T-Mac has been dying to join a championship team

Maybe in NBA Live 2004.

[Sarah]

Re: Where are all the......

Yup, it was possible back then with some throw in players from the Lakers. Heck Magic took Steve Francis why not Kobe. It was highly probable that time because T-Mac and the Magic organization was in bad relationship because of that 11 straight losses. Kobe is in need of a team to prove himself and that would have been Orlando. But Mitch gamble and waited hoping that a championship win will fixed everything for Shaq, Kobe and Phil.But the opposite happens after lossing the finals and Kobe's contract expired. If they have chosen Shaq, they will loss Kobe for nothing since Kobe is not a restricted free agent ( I could be wrong about that info). Letting Shaq go was a good decision for Mitch since the least he could get is a potential young player for Shaq. It was only a matter of choosing the right deal in exchange for Shaq.

Choosing Shaq on the other hand is more risky than keeping Kobe because of Shaq's declining skills. His presence may lure in some good players but they will need a player with exceptional skills like T-Mac or Vince Carter or soon to be superstars like Wade, Melo of Bron. And LA realized they are dreaming if they could get one of those players. Sure Malone and Payton would have stayed, but I don't think Mourning will choose them over SA.

But then you know, this was how I saw things back then and I meant no disrespect.