What is the most important position on the floor?

[ILLSmak]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

It's archaic to even say 'position' anymore. The game has changed so much. I say ball handling wing scorer is the most important. You don't need a PG and a big man can be shut down by defensive schemes. But someone who can score with the ball in their hands is the most important:

AI (awhile ago), Kobe, Bron, Wade... etc

-Smak

[WilliamWilliamson]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

It's archaic to even say 'position' anymore. The game has changed so much. I say ball handling wing scorer is the most important. You don't need a PG and a big man can be shut down by defensive schemes. But someone who can score with the ball in their hands is the most important:

AI (awhile ago), Kobe, Bron, Wade... etc

-Smak

You say that a big man can be shut down by a defensive scheme, which maybe true. I've seen Shaq and Duncan be doubled without the ball and I've seen them doubled and tripled upon the catch. Both of these have been done with great success, however, if a team is committing two or three guys to stop the big man, it's leaving guys open on the perimeter.

A big man's presence creating wide open shots for teammates is way better than Kobe or Lebron jacking up shots against a double team. This is what most casual fans fail to realize. People are so impressed by a guy shooting 45% against double teams and putting up 30 points a night, that they stop realize what good basketball is. Then they question why that guy never wins championships, and point the fingers at the guy's teammates.

[Brankles]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

And if PG was the most important position, you'd expect one of the elite PGs to win a championship.

Your example is a strawman, especially considering Yao didn't even play in the playoffs this year. The C and SG combo has won 4 championships this decade, and it can be argued that one or two of the Spurs were that combo. If you look at all the recent championship teams and look at their SGs, Cs, and PGs, the PGs are, at best, efficient. The Cs and SGs are first bid hall of famers. This point is driven home more because there's only 2-3 great SGs and Cs right now compared to 5-10 good point guards, yet the SGs and Cs win the chips.

Maybe as a combo, those are the two most important positions... but alone, it's been proven that SGs can't take their teams to the next level by themselves. Kobe couldn't do it alone (Andrew Bynum pick). TMac couldn't do it alone (Dwight Howard). Wade couldn't do it alone last year, even when he was healthy (Michael Beasley).


In certain situations, a great SG is required. Shaq never won without a good SG by his side, and none of his PGs were ever really that great. They did, however take care of the ball and manage the team properly, by letting him and Penny/Kobe/Wade all do their things. But if you're looking at a single player and their impact on the game, the PG is the most important imo.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

The most important position is the one with the best player. If you have Shaq, it's center. If you have MJ, it's shooting guard. If you have Magic, Zeke, Chris Paul, it's point guard. If you have Lebron...guess what? That's right, it's small forward. Every role has its function. The function's importance is determined by its effectiveness, or in some cases, ineffectiveness.

[Brankles]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

The most important position is the one with the best player. If you have Shaq, it's center. If you have MJ, it's shooting guard. If you have Magic, Zeke, Chris Paul, it's point guard. If you have Lebron...guess what? That's right, it's small forward. Every role has its function. The function's importance is determined by its effectiveness, or in some cases, ineffectiveness.

I agree. The best player will be the best player.

But for the sake of this topic's argument, let's take a look at the 14 teams that didn't make the playoffs last season and their point guards.

From the East:

New York
PGs = Garbage. Starbury/Crawford only put up numbers, not wins.

New Jersey
I like Devin Harris, I think he could be good one day, but he isn't a true PG yet. He was also surrounded by some pretty horrible talent, so it wasn't entirely his fault.

Indiana
Tinsley. Shot 38% from the field, 28% from the arc and averaged over 3.33 topg. The trade for TJ Ford was made for a reason.

Chicago
With Derrick Rose being drafted, Hinrich is moving to the combo guard position. No true PG on last season's team.

Milwaukee
Mo Williams is in the same mold as a Stephon Marbury. Fantasy beast but no playoffs in the East, even with Andrew Bogut, Michael Redd, and Charlie Villanueva as sidekicks.

Charlotte
Can't really explain this one here. Ray Felton is a good PG, but does have work to do on his 41% FG shooting and 28% 3 point shooting (he shot 2.5 threes a game, too). Another thing worth noting is that the Bobcats had good players at every other position (JRich, Gerald Wallace, Emeka Okafor) but still couldn't make the playoffs.

Miami
Chris Quinn played in 60 games at point guard. Don't really need to say much else there.


In the West:

Portland
They finished .500 and had solid PG play from Steve Blake. Would have made the playoffs in the east.

Minnesota
Randy Foye and Sebastian Telfair are the types of guys that could be good down the road, but right now aren't to that point. Foye is a combo guard and Telfair is a guy that would be coming off the bench on most other teams.

Seattle
Earl Watson and Luke Ridnour. Guys that would be bench players on most teams, and in fact, their starting PG, Earl Watson, was a bench player the majority of his career.

Golden State
48 win team that somehow didn't make the playoffs. Baron Davis is one of the best point guards in the league.

Sacramento
Beno Udrih. Not a bad point guard, and was good enough to take his team to 38 wins, which would have been enough to make the Eastern playoffs.

LA Clippers
Sam Cassell was starting for them for about 30 games, averaging 4.7 apg. Next highest after that? Tim Thomas at 2.7 apg. Baron will be the most appreciated player in Hollywood in 2009.

Memphis
Young and inexperienced Mike Conley, Jr. and Kyle Lowry. Down the road I see these two being pretty good, but last year it was a lot to expect from a 19/20 year old MC Jr. to take this team anywhere.

Any team without 37 wins last year had below average (or terrible) PGs at the helm, even though many of them had good big men and good swing men.


Also, taking a look at the 16 teams that did make the playoffs, there isn't one with a bad PG. The exceptions are the Cavs and Nuggets, where guys like Lebron and Iverson would handle the majority of the ballhandling and distributing duties, thus taking over the job of a PG even if it wasn't their stated position.

[Cebby]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Maybe as a combo, those are the two most important positions... but alone, it's been proven that SGs can't take their teams to the next level by themselves.

The only players that have take their teams to the next level by themselves are AI and Lebron. Nash, Kidd, Paul, Stockton, Payton, and Deron have all had ample help with no real championships (not counting Payton's with the Heat).

They did, however take care of the ball and manage the team properly, by letting him and Penny/Kobe/Wade all do their things

Again, you can say that for every position on a championship team. Most of the non-star positions will bring something to the table.

Your evaluation of positions is kind of pointless. You can do that for every position. You'll get 2-3 good/injured players who are good and a bunch of crappy ones. You also didn't include Kidd on New Jersey.

[Juice Malone]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

PG is the most important position i believe. Its like the quarterback of the nba. Its also an easy selection come lottery time because the college game is all about guard play. They also develop skills quicker than big men.

With that being said though, in rare instances an elite player can successfully take a team pretty far without the need for a good starting pg.

Dwayne Wade (gimpy Jason Williams/washed up gary payton), Lebron James (Eric Snow) and Hakeem Olajuwon (Kenny Smith) come to mind. Scottie Pippen was pretty much running the point in that triangle, so i dont think MJ counts.

[ehh]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

I am a point guard myself and I would love to say that we make the world go round but the truth is a lot of what we do is bring the ball to the half court and get out of the way.

LOL, you must not be a very good PG then.

[ILLSmak]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Shaq is my favorite player. I love the center position in general, but the truth is now more than ever you do not need a superstar center to win, but you DO need a superstar wing. The only thing you need from your center is getting some put backs and shutting down the other team's inside.

You need a good guard especially in the clutch. Big men are typically not great free throw shooters however most scoring wings are. When the game is close, they put the ball in Kobes hands instead of trying to force it down to Shaq.

And keep in mind that if you don't have the player to make the shot that catches the pass, then your big man fails. Remember Orlando in the Finals with Shaq?

So, while a big man might change the defense, he is still not going to be the one changing the game in the end... he will be passing most likely or not even touching the ball at all. With zones now, especially.



-Smak

[Brankles]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

The only players that have take their teams to the next level by themselves are AI and Lebron. Nash, Kidd, Paul, Stockton, Payton, and Deron have all had ample help with no real championships (not counting Payton's with the Heat).

Ok. That's not my point though. Bad teams in the NBA have bad point guards. There's a correlation there.

Not having an adequate PG puts your team at a huge disadvantage, just like having an inadequate QB in football puts your team at a huge disadvantage, because the PG controls the pace and tempo of the game, and if they can't do that, then it's hard for anyone else to be effective.

Again, you can say that for every position on a championship team. Most of the non-star positions will bring something to the table.

Your evaluation of positions is kind of pointless. You can do that for every position. You'll get 2-3 good/injured players who are good and a bunch of crappy ones. You also didn't include Kidd on New Jersey.

But look at the rest of the teams that missed the playoffs (with records under 37 wins) and their best players:
New Jersey had VC
Indiana had Mike Dunleavy and Danny Granger
Chicago had Luol Deng
Milwaukee had Michael Redd and Andrew Bogut
Miami had Dwyane Wade and Shawn Marion/Shaq
Minnesota - Al Jefferson
Seattle - Kevin Durant
LA Clippers - Corey Maggette/Chris Kaman
Memphis - Rudy Gay/Pau Gasol


These are all very good players that would have a huge impact if they were on championship caliber teams. Most of them are better players than the PGs on the playoff teams. But if you can't get a PG to bring the ball up and handle pressure and make decent decisions, then that holds everyone on the court back.

That is why the PG is the most important position on the court. If your PG sucks, then most likely your team isn't going to be as good as it could be, whereas you can make up (in isolated situations) for bad SGs, bad SFs and even bad PF/Cs.


This is seen in the lowest levels of basketball. If there's a youth/high school/college team that can't bring the ball up court, handle pressure and make simple passes, then they're screwed. They could have a big man that can dominate down low or a lights-out shooter and slasher, but if the basic fundamentals of basketball cannot be completed by their primary ballhandler, then those players will be held back significantly.

[Cebby]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

But look at the rest of the teams that missed the playoffs (with records under 37 wins) and their best players:
New Jersey had VC
Indiana had Mike Dunleavy and Danny Granger
Chicago had Luol Deng
Milwaukee had Michael Redd and Andrew Bogut
Miami had Dwyane Wade and Shawn Marion/Shaq
Minnesota - Al Jefferson
Seattle - Kevin Durant
LA Clippers - Corey Maggette/Chris Kaman
Memphis - Rudy Gay/Pau Gasol

New Jersey also had Jason Kidd.

You can't include Gay, Jefferson, or Durant because they're too young. Paul, Williams, and several other top PGs missed the playoffs their first few years given that they're young and walking into a horrible situation.

Wade was injured.

Redd is really the only exception.

Maggette, Kaman, Dunleavy, and Granger? Those more prove my point than anything else. None of those are top 8 in their conference at their position.

The only top level player in that group is Wade and he was wounded. And given that he, unlike every top PG, has won a championship, he's probably not a great example to use.

Point guards get nice records and hype. SGs and Cs win the chips.

This is seen in the lowest levels of basketball. If there's a youth/high school/college team that can't bring the ball up court, handle pressure and make simple passes, then they're screwed. They could have a big man that can dominate down low or a lights-out shooter and slasher, but if the basic fundamentals of basketball cannot be completed by their primary ballhandler, then those players will be held back significantly.

This is the NBA. Every top level team can acquire a PG who can pass the ball adequately. I cannot think of a team who's PG was so inept that could not dribble and pass the ball. If Rondo, Fisher, and an old J. Williams are championship caliber PGs, then the bar is set pretty damn low. Again, that's like saying you can't have a 5' 8" center who can't rebound and allows 58 points per game in the paint.

[Brankles]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Rondo and Fisher can handle the ball, manage the offense and play defense. Fisher was hailed for his smart and clutch play during Lakers title runs back in the 2000s and Rajon Rondo played very good basketball in this years Finals. They are not great PGs, but they are good game managers, the way Ben Roethlisberger was a good game manager, but not a great QB, during his rookie year when the Steelers won the Super Bowl. The old Jason Williams shared PG duties with Wade, who actually was the primary offensive ballhandler, averaging the most assists that season for the Heat.


My whole point is that without a PG who understands the game of basketball, the team is held back more than by any other position on the floor. Bad SG? Bad SF? Bad PF/C? Oh well. Bad PG? You're screwed, good luck making the playoffs. And if you do have a bad PG, you better have a guy like Lebron or Allen Iverson (who could both be considered PGs due to their playmaking and passing ability) to make up for it.

Who were Kobe's PG during his stretch of missing the playoffs the seasons after Shaq left? Smush Parker, Chucky Atkins and Sasha Vujacic.

Who were TMac's PG during his rash of bad seasons in Orlando? Jacque Vaughn and Tyronn Lue.

Paul Pierce lottery squads? Delonte West, a rookie Rajon Rondo, Sebastian Telfair.



PGs may not win championships alone, but they are a necessity in basketball moreso than any other position.

[number10]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Rondo and Fisher can handle the ball, manage the offense and play defense. Fisher was hailed for his smart and clutch play during Lakers title runs back in the 2000s and Rajon Rondo played very good basketball in this years Finals. They are not great PGs, but they are good game managers, the way Ben Roethlisberger was a good game manager, but not a great QB, during his rookie year when the Steelers won the Super Bowl. The old Jason Williams shared PG duties with Wade, who actually was the primary offensive ballhandler, averaging the most assists that season for the Heat.


My whole point is that without a PG who understands the game of basketball, the team is held back more than by any other position on the floor. Bad SG? Bad SF? Bad PF/C? Oh well. Bad PG? You're screwed, good luck making the playoffs. And if you do have a bad PG, you better have a guy like Lebron or Allen Iverson (who could both be considered PGs due to their playmaking and passing ability) to make up for it.

Who were Kobe's PG during his stretch of missing the playoffs the seasons after Shaq left? Smush Parker, Chucky Atkins and Sasha Vujacic.

Who were TMac's PG during his rash of bad seasons in Orlando? Jacque Vaughn and Tyronn Lue.

Paul Pierce lottery squads? Delonte West, a rookie Rajon Rondo, Sebastian Telfair.



PGs may not win championships alone, but they are a necessity in basketball moreso than any other position.

Looks like your a Florida : ) but I still have to agree with what you said. It was well put. Couldnt agree more.

[Cebby]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

My whole point is that without a PG who understands the game of basketball, the team is held back more than by any other position on the floor.

It's the NBA. How many PGs don't understand the game of basketball? Somewhere between 0 and 0.

Bad PG? You're screwed, good luck making the playoffs.

Depends what you mean by bad. I wouldn't rate Rondo and WC any higher than adequate. Fisher is decent, but certainly nothing to write home about. When Detroit won, Billups shot under 40% and averaged 2.5 TOs per game. Obviously playoff teams tend to not have "bad" starters. How many playoff teams had bad SGs?

Who were Kobe's PG during his stretch of missing the playoffs the seasons after Shaq left? Smush Parker, Chucky Atkins and Sasha Vujacic.

Who was Nash's SG when they won 62 games?

Paul Pierce lottery squads? Delonte West, a rookie Rajon Rondo, Sebastian Telfair.

I'm sure Rajon Rondo improving was the difference for the Celtics.

You're better than that.

PGs may not win championships alone

You can drop the alone. Choosing a PG over a C or SG is like choosing Randy Moss, TO, and Romo over the 85 Bears defense and Joe Montana. It may be cuter, but one team's winning the chip and the other isn't.

[Brankles]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

It's the NBA. How many PGs don't understand the game of basketball? Somewhere between 0 and 0.

You must watch a different NBA than I do. I made a list earlier and you basically ignored it. There's players at every position on the court that don't understand how to play basketball the right way, not just PGs. It's just that when you have a bad PG, it effects the team more than all of those other positions.

Depends what you mean by bad. I wouldn't rate Rondo and WC any higher than adequate. Fisher is decent, but certainly nothing to write home about. When Detroit won, Billups shot under 40% and averaged 2.5 TOs per game. Obviously playoff teams tend to not have "bad" starters. How many playoff teams had bad SGs?

Well, all Rondo had to be was "adequate" on a team full of superstars.
Chauncey Billups is a top 3 perimeter defender at the PG position.

Playoff teams and SGs I would consider every day players.

East:
Orlando (Keith Bogans)
Philadelphia (Willie Green)
Toronto (Anthony Parker)
Cleveland (Sasha Pavlovic)
Washington (Deshawn Stevenson)

West:
Utah (Ronnie Brewer)
Phoenix (Raja Bell)
New Orleans (Morris Peterson)
Dallas (Jerry Stackhouse/Jason Terry was a PG running SG)
San Antonio (Michael Finley. This one shouldn't count, though, as Ginobili played most of the minutes here)

That's more than half the teams in the playoffs starting guys who aren't even in the top 20 (except Terry and Bell who were 19th and 20th) in their position at SG.

http://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/Top_30_NBA_Shooting_Guards/264312

Who was Nash's SG when they won 62 games?

Are you trying to prove a point against me or yourself? Look above.

I'm sure Rajon Rondo improving was the difference for the Celtics.

You're better than that.

Spit all you want Sylvester, Rajon Rondo is a completely different player than he was last year. Playing on one of the most talented teams in NBA history also made his job a little easier.

You can drop the alone. Choosing a PG over a C or SG is like choosing Randy Moss, TO, and Romo over the 85 Bears defense and Joe Montana. It may be cuter, but one team's winning the chip and the other isn't.

I don't see how a PG is a QB and a SG or C is an entire football defense. That's a bad analogy. If anything, the PG is the QB and the SG is the WR/RB. On defense, the PG would be the defensive line, clogging up lanes and allowing the linebackers and corners (or the NBA SG) to make plays.

Also picking the big stats highlight reel SG is the "cuter" pick, not the PG.