What is the most important position on the floor?

[Cebby]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

I do not think that is the case with the guard and center positions. You will see guys like Kobe, McGrady, and Wade go for 40+ and shoot well, but still lose the game. Same with the center going for 30 pts, 10+ boards, and a few blocks and still lost the game.

You can say that about any position.

It is extremely rare that you see a very efficient game from the point guard with good numbers in assists and points, and the team lose the game, or get blown out.

The Hornets lost the following games with Chris Paul's stats:

Portland 18 points 12 assists
Minnesota 31 and 11
Denver 30 and 12
Toronto 23 and 16
Lakers 32 and 5 (29 point loss)
Golden State 28 and 12
Sacramento 15 and 19
Houston 14 and 11
Washington 22 and 8 (with no Butler or Arenas)
Houston 37 and 11
Detroit 14 and 14
Boston 22 and 10
Lakers 15 and 17
Dallas 20 and 10

Last night, Dwight Howard had a great game. 22 pts, 15 rebs, 5 blocks, and 5 steals.

They lost. Jameer Nelson had 8 points, 33% shooting, 2 asts, and 3 turnovers.

PG was obviously the big difference there. With Bibby's amazing 4 for 15 12 point and 4 assist/3 TO game. Certainly had nothing to do with their SG going for 25 and 7.

Stephen Jackson and Corey Maggette went had 26 and 27 respectively. Azubuike had 17. Their wing men dominated. Morris Peterson had 6. Yet, the Hornets still won. Chris Paul had 21 and 11.

And Utah won yesterday with their PG going 1 for 9. Baron Davis lost by 40 points to Derrick Fisher.

Teams are built differently. Obviously NO is going to outperform GS's PG and GS' wingmen are going to out perform NO's SG. If NO played a series with Boston, Paul would dominate Rondo, and NO would lose 4-2 or 4-1.

You can use the so and so outplayed so and so for any team's player. 90% of the games NO wins CP3 will have outplayed the other team's PG, however, 90% of the time they lose, he'll have outplayed the other team's PG.

In the playoffs, I'd say it has little to do with PG vs PG and more to do with your best player vs their best player, your second best player vs theirs, your third best player and on and on. Statistically, Tony Parker dominated Fisher last year in the playoffs, and in 3 of the Lakers/Celtics games, the PG with a better statline lost. There are way too many variables to say that the team with better PG play wins. If that was the case, the finals sure as hell wouldn't have been Rondo vs Fisher.

[DC]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

There are way too many variables to say that the team with better PG play wins

Beat me too it

[youvalss]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

The sweeper guy, no doubt!

[The C]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Cebby, you said there are no point guards in the NBA who don't understand basketball. Have you forgotten Smush Parker exists?

[Cebby]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Cebby, you said there are no point guards in the NBA who don't understand basketball. Have you forgotten Smush Parker exists?

Smush is the exception that proves the rule.

[TMagic]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

You can say that about any position.

Teams losing after having great point guard play happens a lot less often than when other positions have a big game.

The Hornets lost the following games with Chris Paul's stats:

Portland 18 points 12 assists
Minnesota 31 and 11
Denver 30 and 12
Toronto 23 and 16
Lakers 32 and 5 (29 point loss)
Golden State 28 and 12
Sacramento 15 and 19
Houston 14 and 11
Washington 22 and 8 (with no Butler or Arenas)
Houston 37 and 11
Detroit 14 and 14
Boston 22 and 10
Lakers 15 and 17
Dallas 20 and 10

Lol....Nice research. Seriously. I know that must have taken some time and give you props on that.

So maybe I used a poor choice of words. Not extremely rare. But it doesn't happen too often.

Matter of fact, I went through and looked at the majority of those games. The opposing point guard had a good game as well. Both sides had good point guard play in those losses you bring up. It wasn't one side did well and one did bad. Both points had pretty good games. Go ahead and check that out if you wish.

PG was obviously the big difference there. With Bibby's amazing 4 for 15 12 point and 4 assist/3 TO game. Certainly had nothing to do with their SG going for 25 and 7.

That was not my point. I never said anything about point play being the factor in that game. My point was showing that Dwight had a completely dominant game and still loss. Not because of Dwight, but Nelson's poor play.

And Utah won yesterday with their PG going 1 for 9. Baron Davis lost by 40 points to Derrick Fisher.

Baron Davis didn't have a good game at all. Not only that, but it's been mentioned plenty in this thread that the Lakers have multiple ball handlers. So they don't really fit.

Teams are built differently. Obviously NO is going to outperform GS's PG and GS' wingmen are going to out perform NO's SG. If NO played a series with Boston, Paul would dominate Rondo, and NO would lose 4-2 or 4-1.

How do you know that?

But anyways, that's the point of this thread. Paul dominated the point guard spot. GS wingmen dominated the Hornets. But who won? If anything, you just proved my point.

You can use the so and so outplayed so and so for any team's player. 90% of the games NO wins CP3 will have outplayed the other team's PG, however, 90% of the time they lose, he'll have outplayed the other team's PG

Like I said, it's not going to happen very often. From the games you posted that he lost, that is not very many out of all the games he played. And again, in those games, the opposing PG had a damn good game as well.

In the playoffs, I'd say it has little to do with PG vs PG and more to do with your best player vs their best player, your second best player vs theirs, your third best player and on and on. Statistically, Tony Parker dominated Fisher last year in the playoffs, and in 3 of the Lakers/Celtics games, the PG with a better statline lost. There are way too many variables to say that the team with better PG play wins. If that was the case, the finals sure as hell wouldn't have been Rondo vs Fisher.

Fisher is not the Lakers primary ball handler.

Just look at the two games that the C's loss. Rondo was a non factor in those games.


And just for the record, I am not saying that point guard play is the all deciding factor. Of coarse other things come into play.

I'm saying that point guard play is the MOST IMPORTANT factor in a team's play. Not the end all be all.

[ProjectRipCity]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Heres my take....Who cares?

Good teams are good...Bad teams are bad...Reguardless of the positions.

Look at the teams throughout history...The factor is whoever wants it more can strive to get it.

The most important position? Team work.

[Brankles]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Is it me, or does it seem like every question today people have to answer with "There's No Real Answer To That"

Like... who's a greater QB, Peyton or Tom?
"Well, there's no answer to that. Peyton has the numbers but Brady has the clutch factor."

Who's the best player in the NBA?
"Well, there's no real answer to that. Lebron's got the all-around but Kobe's got the scoring, and we can't forget Timmy and KG, either."



If somebody brings up a question to me, I do as best as I can to logically pick a side and run wit it... both for the sake of debate and for the sake of answering the question.


I'm not really calling anybody out here, as everyone seems to do it at one point or the other. But it does seem to be the popular thing to do nowadays, almost like a generalized cop-out response.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Heres my take....Who cares?

Good teams are good...Bad teams are bad...Reguardless of the positions.

Well specifically, GMs and fans care when draft time comes. When you're looking to upgrade at a position, it's a reasonable consideration to think of the value of the position in pertinence to your team.

GMs lately have been supporting my answer by subscribing to the philosophy of "get the best player".

For all of the guys who think PG, just look around the league. The best PGs are not all on the best teams. All of the best teams have great players, and usually great or very good defense, because that's what wins games, not positions.

If the question is, "what's the worst position to have a scrub at?" Well then PG, no doubt. A scrub hurts you worse at PG. But in the event that everyone has solid fundamentals, the most important position varies depending on talent and mismatches.

[ProjectRipCity]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Good point. A scrub PG spells disaster.

[Mo_Magic]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Fisher is not the Lakers primary ball handler.

Just look at the two games that the C's loss. Rondo was a non factor in those games.

Then your argument shouldn't be for point guards, it should be for a teams primary ballhandler...

Jameer Nelson isn't even the Magic's primary ballhandler... he splits it about evenly with Hedo... so I fail to see your point.

Fact of the matter is, you're not going to win many games if an integral component, meaning your star players don't play well, so it's a no brainer some of these teams are losing(like B-diddy losing by 40 to LA) when they have "bad pg play".

As stated before, there were a couple games in the Finals where Rondo was non-existant, but the Celtics STILL won... Why? Because they were the better team.

Your most important position is your best player on the floor... and the best player to have on the floor is a dominant post.

How many great PG's have won championships recently? Let's see... Nash, Kidd, Paul, Williams, Davis, Calderon... NO great PG has won a championship recently...

Which is why there is such a premium on balance in the NBA(that the Hornets have, the Lakers have, the Celtics have, the Spurs have). The difference is, in the last ten years, only the teams with the dominant big men in that balance have won, barring Detroit(who was an excellent team with some of the best balance the NBA has ever seen).

If Chris Paul was playing with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Ben Wallace, do you honestly think he could make them look good? I mean, dudes amazing, but it makes the game easier on him that he has one of the greatest spot up shooters of all time, a traditional mold of what a PF should be, and a supremely athletic, really long, really tall guy that he can lob to all day... just like he makes the game easier for them.

I take back my post before... BALANCE is what wins in the NBA...

I still believe a big man can hide most, if not all, balance issues within a team though...

[DakkoN]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

How many great PG's have won championships recently? Let's see... Nash, Kidd, Paul, Williams, Davis, Calderon... NO great PG has won a championship recently...

I don't have time to read the whole thing since I'm supposed to be getting ready for church, but I just had to comment on this quote. I don't know if you've heard of him or not, but that Tony Parker guy? I Heard he's pretty good.

[TMagic]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Then your argument shouldn't be for point guards, it should be for a teams primary ballhandler...

O...My bad man.

I just chose to use the term Point Guard play being most important because I was assuming that the majority of team's primary ballhandler was the point guard.

Jameer Nelson isn't even the Magic's primary ballhandler... he splits it about evenly with Hedo... so I fail to see your point.

When Jameer plays well, the Magic play well. When he struggles, the Magic struggle.

But even then, you can see my point. Look at the three games the Magic have played this year. The two games they loss as of now, Jameer had a poor game. In the win, he had a solid game. There is a trend my friend.

Fact of the matter is, you're not going to win many games if an integral component, meaning your star players don't play well, so it's a no brainer some of these teams are losing(like B-diddy losing by 40 to LA) when they have "bad pg play".

False. I love using Houston because they are such a good example.

T-Mac didn't go anything out of the ordinary and at the same time, Yao was OUT. Why were the Rockets able to keep the streak going? Because of Rafer Alston playing the best ball of his career. To go along with staunch defense.

As stated before, there were a couple games in the Finals where Rondo was non-existant, but the Celtics STILL won... Why? Because they were the better team.

I'd like to know which games you are referring to here. He had good games in all of the wins except for one, in which he didn't play very much because of House having a good game. I invite you to take another gander at those games. It is also no coincidence that when the Celtics loss, Rondo really did have a bad game.

Your most important position is your best player on the floor... and the best player to have on the floor is a dominant post.

How many great PG's have won championships recently? Let's see... Nash, Kidd, Paul, Williams, Davis, Calderon... NO great PG has won a championship recently...

Which is why there is such a premium on balance in the NBA(that the Hornets have, the Lakers have, the Celtics have, the Spurs have). The difference is, in the last ten years, only the teams with the dominant big men in that balance have won, barring Detroit(who was an excellent team with some of the best balance the NBA has ever seen).

If Chris Paul was playing with Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Ben Wallace, do you honestly think he could make them look good? I mean, dudes amazing, but it makes the game easier on him that he has one of the greatest spot up shooters of all time, a traditional mold of what a PF should be, and a supremely athletic, really long, really tall guy that he can lob to all day... just like he makes the game easier for them.

I take back my post before... BALANCE is what wins in the NBA...

I still believe a big man can hide most, if not all, balance issues within a team though...

It seems as if people are mistaking me saying that the Point Guard is the most important position as, "If they have the best PG, then they will always win."

That's dumb. That is not what I'm saying at all. You don't need the best point guard to win games. You just need solid games from your point.

I believe that if you get solid point guard play, the game will be a lot easier for the team. Good point play makes the game easier for the Superstars to get the job done. I see a trend in wins and losses, based off of point guard play.

Billups and Parker have won MVP in the finals. Rondo played well in all of the wins in the Celtics championship. They lost when he played bad. It can be argued that Dwayne Wade was the Heat's primary ballhandler in their championship run.

I didn't find it surprising that Rose was taken over Beasley.

Of coarse the better team wins. But, I think what makes up a large portion of a teams ability, is the play of their point guard.

Again, the point guard is not the end all be all. You do not need the best point guard to win. The best point guards do not have the best team.

If I were to give out percentages as to how much a certain positions play contributes to the overall team. It would go something like this:

PG (or Primary Ballhandler)- 28%
Sg- 18%
SF- 18%
PF- 18%
C- 18%

So from this I hope that everyone understands that I am only saying that the poing guard has the biggest impact out of the other positions.

Think of that like an exam. Say you fail an exam worth 28%. The rest of your exams grade better be pretty damn good to make up for it. Even if you fail the first exam, you still can pass the class and do pretty well. Just not as well if you would have passed that first exam.

On the other side, if you pass that first exam, do very well on it, you have a very good chance of passing the class, and getting a good grade.

So in basketball, if your point guard plays bad or fails, the rest of the team is really going to have to play well and have a good game to make up for it or the opposing point guard is going to have to have a bad game as well.

[Cebby]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

I don't have time to read the whole thing since I'm supposed to be getting ready for church, but I just had to comment on this quote. I don't know if you've heard of him or not, but that Tony Parker guy? I Heard he's pretty good.

Parker's good, but he's never even made an All NBA 3rd team. He's not an elite point guard. It still holds up that the last time a standing All NBA point guard won the championship was a long, long time ago.

[TMagic]

Re: What is the most important position on the floor?

Parker's good, but he's never even made an All NBA 3rd team. He's not an elite point guard. It still holds up that the last time a standing All NBA point guard won the championship was a long, long time ago.

It's not just about having the best point guard in my eyes.

It's just about having solid point guard play.

Along the lines of what Mecca said, you still have a good chance of winning with poor play from the other positions. But, it is much tougher to win a ball game with poor point guard play.