Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

**ProfessaPackMan** · 04-14-2009, 05:33 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Please do it Matrix LOL

**TheMatrix31** · 04-14-2009, 05:38 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

I really, really can't.

Maybe I'll look at some of my old posts and resurrect a past essay or something.

**TMagic** · 04-14-2009, 06:16 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by o_capone

steve nash did not deserve it because the success in phoenix was due to their fast paced offense not due to steve nash... nash could have been replaced by several different players and phoenix would have been just as good...

???....The Suns are 6-17 when Nash does not play (Since 04-05).

there have been soooo many point guards who were a lot better than steve nash who have missed out on all-star games and all-nba teams but this guy wins mvp... jason kidd 0 mvp awards, gary payton 0 mvp awards, kevin johnson, john stockton, baron davis, chris paul... man i can name so many players who are so much better than steve nash who got nowhere near as much credit...

But, you really can't compare across season's. Those players you named were just behind other great players of that time. So you can't say that, "so-and-so didn't get an award, so how can Nash?"

Like Jason Kidd for instance...You can't say, "Well Jason Kidd never got the award, so how can Nash?" Steve Nash winning the award does not mean that people think he is better than Jason. Or even that the season's Nash won the MVP were better than any season Jason Kidd has had. It just so happened that Tim Duncan was having a great year at the same time Kidd was and got the award ahead of him. That's all.

Same can be said about the other players that you mentioned. Like the West has been stacked the last few years. The Suns are missing the playoffs this year. Would you say that the Pistons are a better team than they are because they are in the playoffs? No. It just so happens that they are behind other good teams in their conference.

steve nash has never even been the best player on his own team... not the best or the most productive... but he gets all the credit... the people who should have won mvp those years get robbed... you can find several players who were a lot more productive and more important to their teams success those 2 years...

How can you say that? Steve has easily been the Suns' best player. They don't win without him.

They lost Amare for their entire season. Who was their best player then? Raja Bell?

in my opinion if you were to replace steve nash with jason kidd or john stockton they would have averaged 15 assist on those teams... hell even andre miller or brevin knight could have replaced steve nash on those teams without them missing a beat...

You can't argue hypotheticals. Brevin Knight? Really?

come on now, he had joe johnson, quentin richardson, shawn marion, amare stoudamire and he couldn't get 13-15 assist per game with these guys? he is not hall of fame worthy, he is the most unworthy mvp in nba history... mike d'antoni deserves all of the credit for steve nash making a name for him self...

He averaged 11.5 when he had all those guys on the team. John Stockton had the best apg in history with 14.5 I believe. That's with the Jazz and the NBA playing a faster game, and Stockton playing more minutes than Nash, accounting for only a 3 assist difference between the two.

Steve Nash numbers during his MVP Campaigns

04-05 -YEAR- 05-06
15.5 - PPG- 18.8
11.5 - APG - 10.5
3.3 - RPG - 4.2
50% - FG% - 51%
43% - 3% - 44%
89% - FT - 92%
62-20 -REC- 54-28

Those look like great numbers to me. He averaged a double double for the season. His shooting alone is amazing. In 05-06 they made it to the conference finals sans Amare. Plus, Nash was the one that made all the big shots and made the plays for the Suns down the stretch of many games. Not to mention the luxory that it was to be able to give him the ball to make free throws to close out games.

The Suns had the third best record in the entire league WITHOUT AMARE. Lot of that had to do with Nash. They had the BEST record in the league the year before that. Let me reiterate that the Suns are 6-17 when Nash does not play.

His awards are very justified in my opinion.

(Funny thing about this is that I'm not the biggest Nash fan at all...lol)

**TMagic** · 04-14-2009, 06:25 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by TheMatrix31

I wish I had the energy to debunk all of this.

Do it man. I'm positive you could add a lot more to go along with what I said. LOL

**TheMatrix31** · 04-14-2009, 06:42 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Okay, these aren't the BEST posts, but they were the ones I can find. I certainly remember making more thorough cases on these boards, but whatever. Certainly, the following posts don't offer EVERY argument, as I could go on and on and on about it if you wanted a point-by-point, THOROUGH argument. Either way, here are a few select quotes...

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Congrats to Steve Nash....he truly deserves it. Either man couldve won, but Nash made us go. He was our glue, and he was our driving force. He wasnt the only factor though, dont get me wrong. To whoever said that the Suns were basically the same team as the year before, COMPLETELY wrong.
Q-Rich is not exactly what I call a scrub, plus we didnt have a consistent Joe Johnson. Joe Johnson got consistent b/c of Nash, and because of learning experience. Playerwise, we mightve been relatively the same, but with the addition of Nash and Q, the whole makeup and style of the team changed. Change of gameplan, change of speed, change of everything.

We are a different team than years past, and we went 62-20 from 29-53 last year.

Case closed. Congratulations to Steve Nash and to the rest of the Suns organization and all our fans. We have the MVP, now let's bring home the hardware, baby!

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Originally Posted by Streets View Post
I'm sorry, but after reading some of his posts, I'm starting to agree with ZB9.

Steve Nash could very well get his THIRD MVP people! His third! Who cares if he deserves it or not based on his play this year! By winning the award it automatically means that Nash = Magic Johnson! Also, Nash has never done crap in the playoffs. I mean, neither has Dirk, but Nash has All-stars people!!! All-stars! Nevermind that these all stars benefit immensely from Nash's playmaking ability, and the team falls apart without him. We'll ignore that fact. Dirk has Jason freakin Terry, Josh Howard, Dampier, Stackhouse, Harris, and a host of other D-league calibur players who would be nothing if they weren't playing alongside Dirk.

Dirk had to deal with a new coach who actually preaches defense, and the team is doing BETTER despite that coaching change. He deserves the MVP for that alone.

And ANOTHER thing, Nash left for the Suns and the Mavs got BETTER!! (nevermind that the Suns also got better).

That must mean that Steve Nash was the sole reason that they never won anything before! If you people don't see this you're B-L-I-N-D.
Finally, the BIGGEST determinent of an MVP is the 4 or so games where they match up against there main competition, and right now it is scoreboard: Mavs. Come on people, they have beat the Suns on TWO whole occasions, and your not gonna just hand Dirk the award??

Heres what we do! If Dirk does not win, I say we all stop watching basketball, cut off our left pinkies and mail them to Commisioner Stern, to show him how serious this is, and demand that he hand Dirk the award!!

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Sick and tired of hearing the same rhetoric time and time again. The MVP is a REGULAR SEASON AWARD. That's why there's a Finals MVP. People in general need to stop looking at the fact that Nash is a scrawny 6'0 (at best) point guard as being the reason why he shouldn't be the MVP. Honestly, this is the reason why people don't accept it. Nash doesn't fit the prototypical "MVP" mold, with his look, style....so people think the award is tainted.

People CANT BELIEVE that this kid is winning MVPs and making the game look ridiculously easy anytime he steps out on the court. Sorry to EVERYONE that he's not Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, Karl Malone, or whoever else you want to throw out there.

And I know what you're saying to yourself;

"Well, he was the same guy in Dallas, why didn't he win MVPs there?" The answer to that is, IT WAS A DIFFERENT SITUATION. D'Antoni took the BASIC Don Nelson premise and upped it by a thousand. Nash didn't have the players necessary for those teams to have the same type of success as D'Antoni's system has had and will continue to have, as long as there's a facilitator like Nash in the game. So, once and for all, can we stop comparing those two situations?

That said, though..

Nash can't take his team to the Finals? Let's see....since he's come to Phoenix, he's taken his team to the Western Conference Finals twice in a row, despite extenuating circumstances in BOTH seasons. Give him what the other teams had, and they most certainly would have done even better.

I'm sick and tired of people acting like basketball (or ANY sport) is a ONE MAN game. This isn't golf, or tennis, or any other individual sport. This is BASKETBALL. One player alone does not take a team to the Finals.

It's a team game. Twelve players. So to condemn Nash for not carrying his team to the Finals when they took anything and everything that came to them and responded with tenacity and heart is absolutely ridiculous. Sooner or later, it's going to break down. Playing with SIX GUYS last year in the WCF. Would any other team be able to do this?
<o></o>
I'm not even commenting anymore about Nash deserving MVP this year, because doing so will validate this ridiculous notion that there's even an argument besides Dirk and Nash.

You know, sometimes I wonder to myself why I even go to these great lengths to defend Nash to people everywhere who generally have no concept of what they're saying, then I realize that because of this (and DESPITE the two MVPs)....Nash is still the most underappreciated player in the game.

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Originally Posted by Dice View Post
<o></o>
Nash has missed games for the Suns and even though they stumbled just a little bit they are still are
contending for the West. The Suns without Nash is still a 50+ win team.
<o>
-----</o>
My response?
------

The only way they'd be a 50 win team without Steve Nash would be is if they did a complete system overhaul.
Seriously, have people WATCHED the Suns play without Steve Nash? We look like deer in headlights. Tonight, we were down 18 points to the MF Pacers, and Stevie (and Leandro) put the team on his back and carried us to a victory.

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One more post, I guess.
It's about watching HOW they play when Nash isn't on the court. When Nash isn't on the court, the system BREAKS DOWN. The team looks lost, as there is no other distributor besides Diaw. Even then, Diaw does not distribute on the same level as Nash. Sure, you can look at records and say, "Okay, so they lost without their best player, any team would". It's about HOW they're playing and HOW they're losing.

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Originally Posted by nkhera1 View Post
Don't forget the situations in which Nash won the award. The first year he wont the award resulted in a 33 win turnaround as the team went from not even close to the playoffs to becoming the team with the best record while bringing a brand new style of play to the NBA.
<o></o>
The second time he won it, he had just lost 3 starters (Richardson, Stoudamire and Johnson)with one of them being considered one of the best young players in the game and the team hardly missed a beat getting the 2nd seed in the west. I don't think any of you guys figured the suns would do nearly as well as they did by replacing their lost players with raja bell, boris diaw (who had done absolutely nothing before than), and Kurt Thomas.
<o></o>
Its not like Steve Nash is just winning the MVP because there are no other viable alternatives.
----

My response?
<o>----</o>

No dude, don't you know? Nash is overrated, he doesn't do anything special. I mean, what's 12 assists a game? Should have gone to someone that scored 30 points a game, that looks more like an MVP. And man, he hasn't lead his team to the Finals, either. Surely because that has something to do with the regular season! Maybe he deserved it his first season, but even that was questionable. Definitely not last year, even though he had to play with 9 new players. Those Nash supporters are way, way off base.

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All I see in this thread is a bunch of people who do nothing but spew the same tired rhetoric about the Suns and Nash, post after post after post.

Aside from some of the rare good points in this thread, most of it is just fluff that you hear from people on an every-day basis.

So what, Steve Nash has had three consecutive HISTORIC seasons. Yeah, so his career as a whole AT THIS POINT is not up to par with maybe a Jason Kidd (with all his triple-doubles), and Gary Payton (with his defensive prowess), but Nash would be viewed at as even better than those guys had he been playing in a system with this type of freedom his whole career. I guess a player isn't allowed to get better with age. Sorry he grew out of "only" Top 10 PG level and is now the best PG in the game, three years running.

And HB, great post you made a few posts up. GREAT. You should get an MVP award for it, even though you dont fit the typical MVP image. heh.

Oh, and one more thing. I don't know about you guys, but when I look @ a PG, I look for how he DISTRIBUTES, not how he plays defense. Sorry to everyone that I'm looking at how he helps the team on offense first, considering we have other guys to help the perimeter D, and well, considering how our team is predicated on offense!

**o_capone** · 04-14-2009, 07:56 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

posting numbers definately does not support the case for nash...

lebron james in 04-05
27.2 points
7.2 assis
7.4 rebounds
2.2 steals
47% fg

please dont try to convince your self that nash's 15 points and 11 assist come close to comparing to that...

05-06 lebron
31.4 points
1.6 steals
6.6 assist
7.0 rebounds
48% fg

nash 18 points 10 assist...

come on now, lebron's numbers demolished steve nash's numbers...

cleveland 2003-2004 35-47
cleveland 2004-2005 42-40
cleveland 2005-2006 50-32

lebron deserves all of the credit for turning cleveland into a respectable playoff team... without him they would have been the worst team in the nba...

phoenix would have been a playoff team without steve nash when they had barbosa, marion, and amare... marion was an instant double double, amare just a super beast...

in 2005-2006 kobe bryant averaged 35 points and led the lakers to a 45-37 record... without kobe the lakers would have been lucky to win 20 games... kobe had the most remarkable scoring season in recent history that year...

anyways, nash got it, people can argue for him if they want, but in my opinion you have to be either completely biased or blind if you think he has ever been the nba's most valuable player...

**ZB9** · 04-14-2009, 08:06 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

1/25/2007 (STREETS’ AMAZING SARCASM)
Originally Posted by Streets View Post
I'm sorry, but after reading some of his posts, I'm starting to agree with ZB9.

Steve Nash could very well get his THIRD MVP people! His third! Who cares if he deserves it or not based on his play this year! By winning the award it automatically means that Nash = Magic Johnson! Also, Nash has never done crap in the playoffs. I mean, neither has Dirk, but Nash has All-stars people!!! All-stars! Nevermind that these all stars benefit immensely from Nash's playmaking ability, and the team falls apart without him. We'll ignore that fact. Dirk has Jason freakin Terry, Josh Howard, Dampier, Stackhouse, Harris, and a host of other D-league calibur players who would be nothing if they weren't playing alongside Dirk.

Dirk had to deal with a new coach who actually preaches defense, and the team is doing BETTER despite that coaching change. He deserves the MVP for that alone.

And ANOTHER thing, Nash left for the Suns and the Mavs got BETTER!! (nevermind that the Suns also got better).

That must mean that Steve Nash was the sole reason that they never won anything before! If you people don't see this you're B-L-I-N-D.
Finally, the BIGGEST determinent of an MVP is the 4 or so games where they match up against there main competition, and right now it is scoreboard: Mavs. Come on people, they have beat the Suns on TWO whole occasions, and your not gonna just hand Dirk the award??

Heres what we do! If Dirk does not win, I say we all stop watching basketball, cut off our left pinkies and mail them to Commisioner Stern, to show him how serious this is, and demand that he hand Dirk the award!!

HAAA

that was good times

**Streets** · 04-14-2009, 08:37 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by ZB9

HAAA

that was good times

LOL... memories.

**ZB9** · 04-14-2009, 08:45 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by Streets

LOL... memories.

we had some fun arguments that season

**TMagic** · 04-14-2009, 09:10 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by o_capone

posting numbers definately does not support the case for nash...

lebron james in 04-05
27.2 points
7.2 assis
7.4 rebounds
2.2 steals
47% fg

please dont try to convince your self that nash's 15 points and 11 assist come close to comparing to that...

05-06 lebron
31.4 points
1.6 steals
6.6 assist
7.0 rebounds
48% fg

nash 18 points 10 assist...

come on now, lebron's numbers demolished steve nash's numbers...

cleveland 2003-2004 35-47
cleveland 2004-2005 42-40
cleveland 2005-2006 50-32

lebron deserves all of the credit for turning cleveland into a respectable playoff team... without him they would have been the worst team in the nba...

phoenix would have been a playoff team without steve nash when they had barbosa, marion, and amare... marion was an instant double double, amare just a super beast...

in 2005-2006 kobe bryant averaged 35 points and led the lakers to a 45-37 record... without kobe the lakers would have been lucky to win 20 games... kobe had the most remarkable scoring season in recent history that year...

anyways, nash got it, people can argue for him if they want, but in my opinion you have to be either completely biased or blind if you think he has ever been the nba's most valuable player...

Nash had 20 more wins than LeBron in the 04-05 season. The Suns had the BEST RECORD IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE! How can you honestly sit back and make a case for somebody who didn't even make the playoffs?

In 05-06, Nash played 7 less minutes than LeBron. 7! LeBron averaged about 42.5 minutes. Nash averaged 35.4. I'm willing to bet that Nash's numbers would have been a tad bit better given the minutes that Bron had.

His team still had a better record, even though they lost superstars Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudamire and as Matrix mentioned, he had almost a whole new team.

I also don't understand how people disregard shooting stats. Nash was off the charts. Nobody in the league shot as well as him from the floor. 51-44-92! That's sick for a guard who takes mostly jumpers.

And how can you justify Kobe's numbers that year? He shot the ball 27 times a game at a 45% clip. And again the Lakers were the seventh seed in the west, while the Suns had the third best record out west. They won about 10 more games than the Lakers. Not to mention the fact that they won the division, which the Lakers also happen to be part of.

**o_capone** · 04-14-2009, 09:32 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

the phoenix sun's team accomplishments should not pursuad votes when it comes to the most prestigious individual award the nba offers... the fact that lebron and kobe's teams did not win as many games does not make them less valuable to their teams than nash was... take all 3 players away, who's team do you think would have been effected more? phoenix, la, or cleveland? give the mvp to those franchise players who's teams are absolutely nothing without them...

why do you think d-wade is a top candidate this year? his team is not close to having the best record, but he is a leading candidate for mvp because without him his team is nothing...

do you not agree that mike d'antoni's system made steve nash? just look at nash before and after... he is not even an all-star without d'antoni's system...

d'antonio deserved coach of the year but in my opinion nash is given way too much credit for the team's success...

**TheMatrix31** · 04-14-2009, 09:34 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

People forget what the Suns did without AMARE STOUDEMIRE in 05-06. Even worse, people forget that we lost Kurt Thomas in January of that season too, and before KT went down, we had a top 10 defense too!

Imagine going into that postseason, without Amare, without Kurt Thomas, with the regular season record and performance that they had. Our lineup was Diaw/Thomas/Marion/Bell/Nash! And we had Barbosa coming off the bench, with James and Jumaine Jones. Thats IT!

I mean, there's just no other way to put it. You cannot sit there and tell me Nash didn't deserve his MVPs. That's all there is to it. If you claim that he didn't deserve either, you simply didn't watch Suns basketball.

EDIT: I see you posted something else while I was typing.

1) Nash not an All-Star without D'Antoni's system. Of course, when you have Terry Porter running the show in the first half of the year, and you have the Suns front office stripping the team of what made the team successful, of COURSE he's not going to perform up to his level.

2) If Nash is given way too much credit for the team's success and D'Antoni deserved coach of the year, then how come D'Antoni is struggling in NY?

3) The point I'm trying to make is, Mike D'Antoni and Steve Nash are soulmates. Neither should be faulted for the fact that they are perfect for each other.

**o_capone** · 04-14-2009, 09:37 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by TheMatrix31

People forget what the Suns did without AMARE STOUDEMIRE in 05-06. Even worse, people forget that we lost Kurt Thomas in January of that season too, and before KT went down, we had a top 10 defense too!

Imagine going into that postseason, without Amare, without Kurt Thomas, with the regular season record and performance that they had. Our lineup was Diaw/Thomas/Marion/Bell/Nash! And we had Barbosa coming off the bench, with James and Jumaine Jones. Thats IT!

I mean, there's just no other way to put it. You cannot sit there and tell me Nash didn't deserve his MVPs. That's all there is to it. If you claim that he didn't deserve either, you simply didn't watch Suns basketball.

or maybe all you watched was suns basketball... you are a suns fan so it's expected that you will be biased...

**o_capone** · 04-14-2009, 09:39 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

Originally posted by TheMatrix31

2) If Nash is given way too much credit for the team's success and D'Antoni deserved coach of the year, then how come D'Antoni is struggling in NY?

come on now, are you serious? they have a garbage team...

**TheMatrix31** · 04-14-2009, 09:39 PM

Re: Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

I'm sure there are many, MANY non-Suns fans who will agree with everything I'm saying.

Hollinger's take on past 5 MVP's by the numbers-- Nash and Kob weren't deserving

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