Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

[mKoz26]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

Orlando's barely selling out playoff games. I've seen empty seats all three games so far.

Dwight Howard or no Dwight Howard, Philly going to the next round will make the NBA more money than Orlando would.

Ideally, I'm thinking Stern wants Atlanta, Cleveland, Philly and Boston in the Eastern Semis, the four biggest markets left.

Chicago market > Boston Market. Chicago = second city.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

Orlando's barely selling out playoff games. I've seen empty seats all three games so far.

Dwight Howard or no Dwight Howard, Philly going to the next round will make the NBA more money than Orlando would.

Ideally, I'm thinking Stern wants Atlanta, Cleveland, Philly and Boston in the Eastern Semis, the four biggest markets left.

This makes no sense, considering the biggest issue in that series, the elbow, clearly went ORL's way. Had he been kicked like he should have, they'd be facing elimination tommorrow without Howard and Lee.

TMagic posed this question and got no anwer...why have Stern and co. conspired to keep boring, defense-first teams from small markets like the Spurs and Pistons at the top of the league, while keeping the fan-freindly teams like the Suns and Warriors out of the Finals? And if the league skews games to markets...they've done a very poor job with the Bulls, Clipps and Knicks, no?

Refs are human. Yes, they are influenced by lots of things...respect, tenure, game emotions, crowd. They get pissed off, or see things a certain way just like we all do. They can be worked for makeup calls, and tend to swallow the whistles against a team trailing big. They let smaller players get away with more contact, and there's very little consistency. Ron Artest can hit a dude with everything but the kitchen sink, while Greg Oden gets called for breathing heavily on his man. It is what it is. Artest had to establish that he plays physical. Oden is going to have to establish that he moves his feet. Big Z is so slow, almost always let him move a little on his screens. Bron gets hacked and banged on almost every drive, but unless he's "redirected" they don't call it. On the other hand, he gets away with sloppy, galloping jumpstops, and an extra step in heavy traffic because contrary to popular belief, he does not travel on every drive. Because the majority of his drives ar clean, they aren't watching his feet when he goes blazing by. Wade palms on his crossover, as does CP3, while Howard is such a great shot-blocker the refs no longer look for his lane camping. They expect him to be around the bucket. Shaq got blasted in the back on almost every postup! But again, once the refs see an interaction or move so many times, they start to consider it part of that players steez, and they stop looking for it. They trust that Battier is not hitting a guy in the face with his "hand on the nose" contests, because they've seen him do it with no contact for years now. Also, some dudes are just better than others at drawing fouls, or embellishing contact. If the Bulls players had rushed over and got into Rondo's face, I guarantee the refs break it up and take a much harder look at that replay before making their judgment.

But to call those influences some master plot by the league is laughable. Two words for you: Jose. Canseco. No scheme that big would stay under wraps for decades. And raise your hand if you've ever been to a perfectly reffed highschool game. Or how about a perfectly reffed juco game? Big dolllars there, lol. Yeah, any multi-million dollar operation will have some corruption here and there...welcome to reality. I'm sure that some refs have had agendas. But at the end of the day, it's REAL easy to whine, complain, and point fingers at the NBA iluminatti once you've had the hindsight of several slow-mo replays from 4 different angles. Like Born said, I'd strongly doubt that any of us on here could get even half these calls correct if you had to make those snap judgements on the floor, which makes all the outrage kinda' funny, IMO.

[faster]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

There are a lot of sports fans that believe the NBA is fixed or at the very least has agendas. Obviously I'm a Lakers fan, and even when the Lakers won some questionable game and lost some questionable games in the past, it has never made me think anything funny was going on. But when the NBA starts talking about changing rules because one of Lebrons pet moves gets banned and he whines about it, you start to question what's going on. I'm the minority up here in Minneapolis (being a Lakers fan), and most of my buddies who are sports fans think the league will give the title to the Cavs. They see Lebron as a guy who is gifted but babied by the league and the refs. A guy who muscles his way into the league, travels often, and though has a lot of skill, is made out to be better than he is. Bash me for this post, but that's what many think. I have always been a Lebron fan until the last year or so, so I have no agenda against him, but his act is wearing on me too. It DOES feel like it's Lebron's league no matter what happens at times lately.

I'm hoping to see a Cavs/Lakers series and I think most everyone wants it to happen. Kobe/Lebron will be big money and great TV. The better team, if they are clicking and healthy, is the Lakers. But they let way too many teams back into the game and are just getting Andruw back. I believe and hope the NBA is impartial, and the refs, who are human, call the game to the best of their ability without any outside persuasion. Again though, sometimes it feels like they "guide" some of the games.... doesn't it?

[faster]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

and wow, i looked at my post from a day or so ago.... I can't say i necessarily believe stern and the nba will do whatever it takes, but like i just said, sometimes it feels that way... it feels like they are rushing lebron to the throne. i hope not, so let's let it all play out.

[tehova]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

I can't quote because on mobile. But the comment above about perfectly reffed high school games brought back conspiracy theory memories. The aau squad I played on everybody was convinced that the refs had it out for us and then didn't wanna see us win because we were from a small town and whatnot. So I kept asking them "why would they do that, why would they dislike us and keep just us from winning". they never really could explain it but they were all convinced. I never saw anything other than typical bad calls, we got some as well. Cliche time coming. At the end of the day, the ref can't stop me from making shots.

Let's say the fix was in for the Bulls to beat the Celtics the other night.

Nothin a ref can do about Paul Pierce's 1 dribble fadeaway over and over again.

[J0nnD0ugh]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

......TMagic posed this question and got no anwer...why have Stern and co. conspired to keep boring, defense-first teams from small markets like the Spurs and Pistons at the top of the league, while keeping the fan-freindly teams like the Suns and Warriors out of the Finals? And if the league skews games to markets...they've done a very poor job with the Bulls, Clipps and Knicks, no?

Was the question "does the NBA fix games", or "does the NBA fix champions"? I'm not of the belief David Stern is micromanaging ever snippet of every game & series. Or else, Donaghey would have blown the whistle on that. The NBA picks & chooses its moments for whatever reason. What's the motivation? Who knows? Why do billionaires embezzle money? Why do promising politicians get into sex scandals w/2-bit hookers? People do stupid things because they can, because they have the power to do it.

Now here are my questions that none of you naysayers have answered: If it was simply bad officiating, why is the bad officiating so lopsided in the examples given earlier? If there was no bias, wouldn't both teams get screwed? And why are those same refs, like Dick Bavetta, not only still employed, but still getting the plum assignments? If the NBA is so meticulous in grading their refs, wouldn't they get demoted at the least?

And here's more to ponder:

If Donaghey got into fixing because of gambling debts, why was allowing the refs to gamble more his response?

Remember when Penn University came out w/a study showing racial bias in the NBA? Stern immediately disputed it, claiming the NBA themselves had data that proved it didn't exist. Why did the NBA refuse to share that "data" to exonerate their officials? In the press or w/the professors?

The general hired to "oversee" the refs....What exactly does he do? How does he check on them? What does he check? Associates? Bank accounts? How many mistakes they make? How does he discipline? Can he discipline? Who does he answer to? In fact, what qualifies him to be a ref czar in the first place?

Stern claimed the NBA would be more open about their methods. But they have offered nothing on this new position. Nor have they given anyone a glimpse of how they are policing the officials.

If Donaghy was a rouge official, how do you explain his relationship w/fellow ref, Scott Foster? On a phone feds say Donaghy used for his gambling activities almost exclusively, he called Foster constantly before Foster's games. The more than 100 phone calls stopped after Donaghy's gambling ended. The only person Donaghy called more on that number was his bookie. Msot of the time, he called his bookie directly after talking to Foster.

A check of gambling activity on Foster's games show Vegas had to change their odds on seven of his matches because activity had spiked on a particular team. On those seven, the team that was bet on heavily won each time. The odds of that happening, according to mathmeticians, was less than one percent.

Why was Foster never investigated by the NBA?

[Jasong7777]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

^Great post JOnn. And great questions.

[Freelance]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

What did the Lakers give up to get Gasol?

[23]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

Was the question "does the NBA fix games", or "does the NBA fix champions"? I'm not of the belief David Stern is micromanaging ever snippet of every game & series. Or else, Donaghey would have blown the whistle on that. The NBA picks & chooses its moments for whatever reason. What's the motivation? Who knows? Why do billionaires embezzle money? Why do promising politicians get into sex scandals w/2-bit hookers? People do stupid things because they can, because they have the power to do it.

Now here are my questions that none of you naysayers have answered: If it was simply bad officiating, why is the bad officiating so lopsided in the examples given earlier? If there was no bias, wouldn't both teams get screwed? And why are those same refs, like Dick Bavetta, not only still employed, but still getting the plum assignments? If the NBA is so meticulous in grading their refs, wouldn't they get demoted at the least?

And here's more to ponder:

If Donaghey got into fixing because of gambling debts, why was allowing the refs to gamble more his response?

Remember when Penn University came out w/a study showing racial bias in the NBA? Stern immediately disputed it, claiming the NBA themselves had data that proved it didn't exist. Why did the NBA refuse to share that "data" to exonerate their officials? In the press or w/the professors?

The general hired to "oversee" the refs....What exactly does he do? How does he check on them? What does he check? Associates? Bank accounts? How many mistakes they make? How does he discipline? Can he discipline? Who does he answer to? In fact, what qualifies him to be a ref czar in the first place?

Stern claimed the NBA would be more open about their methods. But they have offered nothing on this new position. Nor have they given anyone a glimpse of how they are policing the officials.

If Donaghy was a rouge official, how do you explain his relationship w/fellow ref, Scott Foster? On a phone feds say Donaghy used for his gambling activities almost exclusively, he called Foster constantly before Foster's games. The more than 100 phone calls stopped after Donaghy's gambling ended. The only person Donaghy called more on that number was his bookie. Msot of the time, he called his bookie directly after talking to Foster.

A check of gambling activity on Foster's games show Vegas had to change their odds on seven of his matches because activity had spiked on a particular team. On those seven, the team that was bet on heavily won each time. The odds of that happening, according to mathmeticians, was less than one percent.

Why was Foster never investigated by the NBA?

Honestly JD, we've talked about this almost ad nauseum and no answers are provided. The joke of a solution, a 3 star army general who hasn't even been visible in action, person, nor in word to oversee the refs is quite amusing.

I happen to again agree with you on this topic but its always brushed off.

[Jasong7777]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

What did the Lakers give up to get Gasol?

Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, Aaron McKie, draft rights to Marc Gasol, and first round picks in 2008 and 2010.

[Fiasco West]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

To the original point, the NBA now has a tremendous credibility problem, and it's starting to reflect in television ratings and advertising dollars.

An NBA playoff game now has a tough time outdrawing an NFL preseason game in many local markets. How pathetic is that?

I'd say 50 percent of the sports viewing public views NBA as "fixed". True or not to what degree, that is a massive perception problem.

Nothing is wrong with NBA ratings, they are about the same as MLB ratings. Also i'm sure the average attendance has been pretty high compared to all previous years, something like 3rd highest.

If you compare NBA ratings to NFL then yea, I can see someone coming to this conclusion.

[23]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

The NBA is the bottom of the 3. I remember asking about this in a thread in the E&T forums.

[Fiasco West]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

This thread has turned out how I expected. People coming in here as fans of their teams etc. etc. etc.

BOS, LAL have both had games where you raise your eye brows. Miami obviously.

It doesn't matter about market size. What sells is the individual.

I personally do not believe there's a fix ordered by Stern. If there are rogue refs then so be it.

I agree though.

I don't believe the league is fixed as some people here have it like Stern has a blueprint to who plays who and when.

I think the NBA just has shady officiating, but how many times has the officials really changed the outcome of a series? You can argue the Kings-Lakers series, but that is it. As tehova said earlier. The bulls didn't stop Pierce hitting the same shot over and over again. Despite what happened in the end, and Miller should have knocked down his FTs.

[Fiasco West]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

The NBA is the bottom of the 3. I remember asking about this in a thread in the E&T forums.

But this weekend alone the Celtics/Bulls game finished with a 4.0, and the Lakers game did much better than the Baseball game that was on. (This was a about a week ago let me just say that.) but the first round of the NBA playoffs isn't really a huge draw. Most people have a good idea of whose going to win, so don't bother tuning in or just glance at the score.

Any ways ratings aren't the end all and be all about how successful these leagues are compared to each other.

NBA & MLB are really close that I wouldn't say one draws much better than the other.

[Brankles]

Re: Do You Honestly Think The NBA "Fixes" Games?

This makes no sense, considering the biggest issue in that series, the elbow, clearly went ORL's way. Had he been kicked like he should have, they'd be facing elimination tommorrow without Howard and Lee.

TMagic posed this question and got no anwer...why have Stern and co. conspired to keep boring, defense-first teams from small markets like the Spurs and Pistons at the top of the league, while keeping the fan-freindly teams like the Suns and Warriors out of the Finals? And if the league skews games to markets...they've done a very poor job with the Bulls, Clipps and Knicks, no?

You can only do so much with bad teams. And you can only hold good teams back so much. The Bulls, Clippers and Knicks have been horrible for years, despite high draft picks and big money signings. The Warriors were a gimmicky team and still are a gimmicky team, they just didn't have the personnel to make it far in the playoffs. The Spurs, Pistons, and Suns were all legitimately good teams.

While all series might not be fixed (in fact I think few, if any, are 100% rigged), I do believe there is preferential treatment going on. Certain players are vilified and certain players are turned into heroes and the league really pushes them one way or the other. Certain teams are made out as champions while others are made out as cheap-shotters and brawlers. The NBA puts certain treatment on these teams as necessary. Maybe they would rather have the underdog win, or maybe send a team like Detroit to the Finals a few years back to act as the "Bad Boys" to the Lakers and the Spurs.

In fact, as a backlash to the Detroit/San Antonio series, which was a defensive snooze fest, you've seen the league get more and more offensive oriented. As this has happened, less defensive-minded teams have been successful and teams who have offensive options have done much better. This year, Detroit and San Antonio were the first two teams to get knocked out the playoffs.

Refs are human. Yes, they are influenced by lots of things...respect, tenure, game emotions, crowd. They get pissed off, or see things a certain way just like we all do. They can be worked for makeup calls, and tend to swallow the whistles against a team trailing big. They let smaller players get away with more contact, and there's very little consistency. Ron Artest can hit a dude with everything but the kitchen sink, while Greg Oden gets called for breathing heavily on his man. It is what it is. Artest had to establish that he plays physical. Oden is going to have to establish that he moves his feet. Big Z is so slow, almost always let him move a little on his screens. Bron gets hacked and banged on almost every drive, but unless he's "redirected" they don't call it. On the other hand, he gets away with sloppy, galloping jumpstops, and an extra step in heavy traffic because contrary to popular belief, he does not travel on every drive. Because the majority of his drives ar clean, they aren't watching his feet when he goes blazing by. Wade palms on his crossover, as does CP3, while Howard is such a great shot-blocker the refs no longer look for his lane camping. They expect him to be around the bucket. Shaq got blasted in the back on almost every postup! But again, once the refs see an interaction or move so many times, they start to consider it part of that players steez, and they stop looking for it. They trust that Battier is not hitting a guy in the face with his "hand on the nose" contests, because they've seen him do it with no contact for years now. Also, some dudes are just better than others at drawing fouls, or embellishing contact. If the Bulls players had rushed over and got into Rondo's face, I guarantee the refs break it up and take a much harder look at that replay before making their judgment.

I mean, that's a completely different beast entirely, (no pun intended about that blue X-Man). Players have developed reputations and refs act accordingly, which is why they didn't throw out Dwight from the game, because it was something he has never done.

Someone behind closed doors suspended Dwight.

But to call those influences some master plot by the league is laughable. Two words for you: Jose. Canseco. No scheme that big would stay under wraps for decades. And raise your hand if you've ever been to a perfectly reffed highschool game. Or how about a perfectly reffed juco game? Big dolllars there, lol. Yeah, any multi-million dollar operation will have some corruption here and there...welcome to reality. I'm sure that some refs have had agendas. But at the end of the day, it's REAL easy to whine, complain, and point fingers at the NBA iluminatti once you've had the hindsight of several slow-mo replays from 4 different angles. Like Born said, I'd strongly doubt that any of us on here could get even half these calls correct if you had to make those snap judgements on the floor, which makes all the outrage kinda' funny, IMO.

I mean, you just laid it out right there in bold. The NBA isn't part of the New World Order, but they have business interests in mind. Obviously they cannot fix the outcome of every game... but as we saw with Tim Donaghy and the results of his officiating, tightly contested games can easily swing one way or the other based on who the ref is favoring that game.


Look at the Orlando series and the TV scheduling. Game 2, 5 and 6 were/will be on NBATV. Game 3 was on ESPN2. 2 out of Orlando's 4 home games were on NBATV.

David Stern has a couple options here:
He wants this series to go 7 games so he can get at least one series to do so, as well as to give Dwight Howard at least a little bit of national coverage and wants Orlando to advance.
He wants this series to go 7 games, because Philly most likely would have lost 1 out of 2 if there was a healthy Dwight Howard and wants Philly to advance because they are a larger market.