Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

[sportyguyfl31]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

All fanboyism and what-not aside, he's peaked.

That isn't to say he won't repeat last year for two more years, but it's highly unlikely he will top it.

He's 31 ... and no matter how great he is, even Kobe Bryant can't fight the human body.

As you get older, your body doesn't utilize oxygen the same way. No matter how fit you are, that doesn't change.

True. As you get older, your body loses flexibility and explosiveness. Those are undisputed facts.

The smart, great player is able to stiff arm this process for a couple more years and mask their decline by either changing the way they play, changing their conditioning, etc.

This is why, as NBA players age, their games gradually move further away from the basket, and their free-throw attempts decrease.

They simply cannot get to the rim as consistantly.

Kobe can probably play at, or close to this level for another year, and maybe squeeze a second one after that before it starts to become really obvious.

The ones who remain stubborn and refuse to make sacrafices, are the ones that begin the steep, ugly decent into "washed up"..which is where Iverson appears to be headed.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

True. As you get older, your body loses flexibility and explosiveness. Those are undisputed facts.

The smart, great player is able to stiff arm this process for a couple more years and mask their decline by either changing the way they play, changing their conditioning, etc.

This is why, as NBA players age, their games gradually move further away from the basket, and their free-throw attempts decrease.

They simply cannot get to the rim as consistantly.

Kobe can probably play at, or close to this level for another year, and maybe squeeze a second one after that before it starts to become really obvious.

The ones who remain stubborn and refuse to make sacrafices, are the ones that begin the steep, ugly decent into "washed up"..which is where Iverson appears to be headed.

Iverson's turned into more of a jump-shooter too, his body was just used up way quicker than Kobe's.

[Mo_Magic]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

I can agree with that. That's all we can really do when we're comparing two players in completely different situations, as far as teammates go.



Have you ever thought of the possibility that LeBron was playing more minutes and starting more games because he was a better player than Kobe was at the same age?

If Kobe was as incredible as you make him out to be, why wasn't he starting over Eddie Jones, or at least starting next to him? I'm pretty sure an 18 year old LeBron James who was averaging 20, 6 and 6 could have found minutes or even a starting spot on 18 year old Kobe's Lakers squad.

Looking at career numbers (averages, not totals), Kobe's career minutes come out to 36.9 mpg and LeBron's come out to 40 mpg. LeBron averages 2.3 more ppg, 1.7 rpg, 2.1 apg, 0.3 bpg, 0.3 spg, and shoots 1.6% better from the field in those 3 extra minutes.

Break it down parallel individual season by individual season, 18 year old Kobe with 18 year old LeBron and so on, and statistically LeBron beats Kobe every year so far. Basketball is not all stats, but LeBron beats Kobe in all basic statistics except FT% (10%), 3 pt% (2%) and TOPG (0.4). That alone has to add some legitimacy to the debate.

Sorry, this isn't a Kobe vs. LeBron thread (even though it looks like it's turning into one), just saw some flaws in that logic.


As far as Kobe hitting a wall, no he hasn't. He's improving in skill areas while declining in athleticism, the strange twilight zone of a 30+ shooting guard's prime. Eventually his athleticism will get to the point where his skills won't be able to carry him anymore, but not for at least 2 years. We're seeing facets of his game take off, like his post moves, but he's not as aggressive to the rim as he was in year's past because of his age.

While I respect and agree with this opinion for the most part, I hate the fact that career numbers actually matter. At this point, Kobe is at the height of his game and is MILES away the best basketball player in the league as far as skills.

READ THAT AGAIN.
Not the most effective player in the league over the course of 82 games, not the most efficient scorer or athletically gifted, SKILLED. When Kobe wants a shot, Kobe gets it. If Kobe wants an open shot for a team mate, he gets it. Whenever he wants. And, as far as we know, LeBron may not ever plateau at the level Kobe is at right now.

I understand your point completely and agree with it, LeBron was better than Kobe at their respective ages, but that will not make him a better player in the end of things(which you aren't even saying, really, so there's no argument here, just observations).

And then you have to take into consideration the nature of the offenses, like Kobe playing in the triangle which is a ball sharing offense, whereas the Cavs' run isos for LeBron all game long(allowing him to bolster his assist total).

As far as the skills thing, I've been saying it for a long time - and received ridicule on this site from a few people that actually think LeBron is anywhere near the skill level of Kobe - and it's what seperates Kobe from every other player in the league and puts him at another level. He could have lead the league in scoring every year for the past 5(it's honestly probably more than that) if he felt so inclined. When his game is off, like it is right now(his mid range J and three point shot have been TERRIBLE since the start of the season, which is very abnormal for him), he can STILL lead the league in scoring just based off of the fact that he has one of the best post games in the league... as a guard. Unless LeBron or Wade are in a hot streak, their effectiveness can be limited if you can control the driving lanes to the basket.

Kobe can back it in when there is no driving lane and create offense in the paint without needing to slash it, hit contested jumpers, stretch the defense, etc. and that's where the main difference between Kobe and all players lie. In his offensive game, there is no hole or glaring deficiency. Just greatness all around.

I really don't see where anybody thinks any player is on Kobe's planet right now. Offensively, he's the most complete player of all time... and I really, really don't think it's close.

[Kruza]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Kobe has reached his athletic peak and that's it. His offensive skill set is still superior along with this basketball IQ and trademark killer instinct. I don't see where he has hit the wall.

Kruza

[dave374]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Offensively, he's the most complete player of all time... and I really, really don't think it's close.

IMO, that title belongs to Magic Johnson - still the only guy who could be an all-star at all five positions, including centre.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

IMO, that title belongs to Magic Johnson - still the only guy who could be an all-star at all five positions, including centre.

Not arguing with your statement, but just pointing out that just because he could play any position, it doesn't necessarily mean he was more complete OFFENSIVELY. I can't really argue your point considering I was too young to see Magic play and I haven't really taken the time to watch many of the older games like that (except when they show MJ's games on TV cuz I was around at that point in time but only remember little bits and pieces of what he did)

[dragon4ever]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Kobe has definitely hit a wall with his athleticism, which in return affects his overall game. He may still be one of the best, but he isn't as dominant as he was couple of years ago. Speaking of which, NBA analysts all seem to believe that the best offensive player in the league is Carmelo Anthony. How is he the best again? If anything Wade is probably the best offensive player.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Yuh. Been that way for awhile, I think.

Funny how people praise Kobe's skillset, but they don't realize a ton of his game is predicated on athleticism. Would he still be good if he wasn't athletic? Yes, but not a HOFer.

I agree that Kobe can get a shot whenever he wants it... but not necessarily a good shot.

Like I said, Kobe probably hit the wall a couple years ago. Funny how people are like, "Kobe's become the ultimate team player!" but really it's because he needs them more now.

-Smak

[Brankles]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

I really don't see where anybody thinks any player is on Kobe's planet right now. Offensively, he's the most complete player of all time... and I really, really don't think it's close.

You made good points here and there, but a lot of your post was things like this, just outright opinions or pure speculation. LeBron may not be as skilled as Kobe in many areas of scoring, but his athleticism is at such a high level, a level very few NBA players have ever reached, that it offsets the lack of scoring skills he might have. Skill-wise and offensively, LeBron could be considered a better slasher, passer (higher A:T ratio than Kobe, despite this "Isolation offense" argument), sees the court better (not passing), more active inside on the glass, a better finisher on fast breaks, a better creator for teammates, and better at drawing fouls. He also plays four positions, while Kobe only plays two. So it depends what you define as skill on the offensive end of the court, because there's certainly more to offensive basketball than post up moves, fadeaways and a killer mid-range pull up. I'm not saying that's all that Kobe has in his repertoire, I'm saying that there are other criteria to judge an offensive player.

Not arguing with your statement, but just pointing out that just because he could play any position, it doesn't necessarily mean he was more complete OFFENSIVELY. I can't really argue your point considering I was too young to see Magic play and I haven't really taken the time to watch many of the older games like that (except when they show MJ's games on TV cuz I was around at that point in time but only remember little bits and pieces of what he did)

Magic and LeBron are similar players, in the respect that they could literally do everything a basketball player can do, and anything their coach asked them to. I don't think the same can be said for Kobe. This has a lot to do with their size, which Kobe doesn't have, but at the same time their size and athleticism shouldn't be used against them either. Their combination of skills and size translate to almost every position. That, to me, makes a complete basketball player.


Keep in mind Kobe doesn't need to play 4 or 5 positions on the court. His job is to score, score, score, and he is the best pure scorer in the league. His athleticism is declining, his skills are peaking, but his understanding of the game will always be growing. His game is going to change a lot the next few years. Those contested shots he's used to taking won't keep falling and he's going to need to rely on his teammates more and more. It will be interesting to see how he adapts and if he's able to change his scoring mentality, which I think he's already in the process of doing. Scoring guards and under-sized big men are the most rapidly declining positions when it comes to age. Kobe will need to shift from scoring guard to more of distributor and court general as he ages, which I'm not sure he would excel at. That's why Jordan was able to play so long, I think, because he understood basketball on so many different levels that I don't think Kobe has yet to fully grasp. That definitely will be something to watch for.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Exactly... Kobe is the mold of "scoring guard." He's not even (ouch, gonna get flamed) the type of player you'd build a championship around. He's the kind of guy you'd want taking pressure off of your bigs and closing the game. That's why the Lakers w/ Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest teams ever.

-Smak

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Kobe has definitely hit a wall with his athleticism, which in return affects his overall game. He may still be one of the best, but he isn't as dominant as he was couple of years ago. Speaking of which, NBA analysts all seem to believe that the best offensive player in the league is Carmelo Anthony. How is he the best again? If anything Wade is probably the best offensive player.

If I had to guess, I would say it's mostly because of his size and strength. He's turned into one of the stronger SFs in the game and he can score in a few more ways than Wade in my opinion. I'll take Wade's instincts as a scorer over Anthony's skill set, but I can understand why analysts would say Melo might be the best offensive player in the league right now.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

Exactly... Kobe is the mold of "scoring guard." He's not even (ouch, gonna get flamed) the type of player you'd build a championship around. He's the kind of guy you'd want taking pressure off of your bigs and closing the game. That's why the Lakers w/ Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest teams ever.

-Smak

Who are the types of players "you'd build a championship around"

[Vince]

Re: Has Kobe Bryant finally hit the wall?

lmao at this thread...

and this dude smak acting as if Kobe has become Shane Battier.

He's not the athlete he once was, but he can still blow by people and finish at the rim..

Kobe always had AMAZING athleticism...So if he falls off just a bit in that category, he's still better than half the league.