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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Stats don't lie.“People talk about LeBron,” said Rodman. “You’ve got to understand, LeBron has no business even being in the same conversation with Scottie. Scottie was the epitome of the (do it all elite player). What do you want me to say? Scottie was great.”
Worm, STFU. Your take on this is
I could jive with this post.
If what you're saying is true about Hickson vs. Shaq, then I'm siding with James 100% on this one.
Stats didn't lie even with O'Neal being "in shape" and the "model teammate". That's all well and good but it's clear that the Big Fella simply should not be starting nor be getting significant minutes. He's an on-court chemistry killer for most contending teams. Now with Boston, Shaq can actually be effective assuming he's a backup.
In the half court it looked as if LBJ had a 2-ton anchor around his neck whenever Shaq would be in. The game looked too rigid on offense and not artistic like the year before. Once again, the stats on that don't lie. Check em.
Hickson was the ideal compliment to a player like James, and when Hickson didn't see the floor much of the Boston series I was constantly making posts about it. Brown's inept *** decided to nail Hickson's backside to the bench.
Shaq: 23 mpg, 12ppg on 57% shooting, 6.7 boards, an assist and a half, 1.2 blocks. Bad PnR defense, solid man defense, excellent paint defense.
JJ: 21 mpg, 8.5ppg on 55% shooting, 3.6 boards, .5 assists, .5 blocks. Decent PnR defense, horrendous man defense, terrible paint defense.
5-man rotation and +/- numbers all say the same as well. Say what you will about Shaq's production, JJ was LeBrons stepchild and nothing more.
Hank's Custom Collectibles 3D printer/painter extraordinaireComment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Check LeBron's numbers whenever Shaq was on the floor with him.Stats don't lie.
Shaq: 23 mpg, 12ppg on 57% shooting, 6.7 boards, an assist and a half, 1.2 blocks. Bad PnR defense, solid man defense, excellent paint defense.
JJ: 21 mpg, 8.5ppg on 55% shooting, 3.6 boards, .5 assists, .5 blocks. Decent PnR defense, horrendous man defense, terrible paint defense.
5-man rotation and +/- numbers all say the same as well. Say what you will about Shaq's production, JJ was LeBrons stepchild and nothing more.
The game turned into an ugly hot mess offensively.
Defensively JJ isn't a known defender. He does a decent enough job as PF, and his offensive skill set outweighs anything on defense.
Shaq held the Cavs' offense hostage.Comment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Tom Haberstroh:
LeBron with Shaq last year: Cavs +3.4 pts per possession. LeBron without Shaq? +15.7. That experiment was fun wasn't it?
Dwyer is kind of hit or miss, but I agreed with him on this:
It's just that all these raw stats tell you that the Cavs were so, so much better with O'Neal on the pine. That when things weren't Shaq-centric, Cleveland tended to dominate. The easy answer to that? Don't pass Shaq the ball. Don't make him Shaq-centric. To these eyes, Cleveland didn't. And yet, the team's offense stunk with him out there. Tom Haberstroh nailed the best part of it last week:
"LeBron with Shaq last year: Cavs +3.4 pts per possession. LeBron without Shaq? +15.7. That experiment was fun wasn't it?"
That's per 100 possessions, and with the average game working around 93 or 94 possessions, nearly 16 points is a pretty big deal. That's not an insignificant number. I watched the games, same as you did. I'm not going to pretend to know something, some significant reason, as to why it didn't flow. Kobe Bryant(notes) seemed perfectly adept at driving the lane with Shaq around, same with Dwyane Wade(notes). Why couldn't LeBron James(notes)?
I've no idea, but it didn't work. And when all else fails, I tend to send the stink-eye toward the big fella in his late 30s, and not the best player in the game.Comment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
it can be incorrect in your eyes. All your posts shows is that with shaq off the court lebron got the ball more. That work out so well lebron left cleveland to play with players who will most def get possesions. Truth is With Shaq in the starting lineup the cavs won 62% of the time. With him on the court during clutch situations the team won 75% of the time. With Shaq off the court the opposing team shot a better field goal %.Comment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
My numbers show that Shaq held the Cavs' offense hostage. LeBron was able to use his abilities much more freely with the Big Fella on the pine. The team flowed so much better with Shaq off the court, and production proved it.
You saying Shaq in the starting lineup= Cavs winning 62% of the time is Talk about a worthless stat that really says nothing.
Somehow you found an even more worthless stat with the clutch situation 75% crap.
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
HAHA You know you are so right. It's so worthless because winning the game in sports means nothing. Who cares about Lebron showing his abilties freely, It's Obvious Lebron 1 on 5 offense didn't work. I'm sure your a mike brown supporter if you feel it did.My numbers show that Shaq held the Cavs' offense hostage. LeBron was able to use his abilities much more freely with the Big Fella on the pine. The team flowed so much better with Shaq off the court, and production proved it.
You saying Shaq in the starting lineup= Cavs winning 62% of the time is Talk about a worthless stat that really says nothing.
Somehow you found an even more worthless stat with the clutch situation 75% crap.Comment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Your percentages mean nothing though, so this post really doesn't add to anything you said. You equating Shaq starting directly to a "win" is about as faulty as anything you've ever said about TMac or Kobe [which is everything].
Mike Brown, yeah I guess I'm a supporter now, that's exactly what I was implying
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
I'm saying With shaq on the court the cavs played better basketball and had a better chance of winning with him on the court. As to your kobe bait seeing as you brought it up in a lebron thread it seems to me my tmac/kobe stuff isn't as faulty as it seems.Your percentages mean nothing though, so this post really doesn't add to anything you said. You equating Shaq starting directly to a "win" is about as faulty as anything you've ever said about TMac or Kobe [which is everything].
Mike Brown, yeah I guess I'm a supporter now, that's exactly what I was implyingComment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Well played, lol. I'll see your Haberstroh and raise you a John SchuhmannOriginally posted by ex carrabba fan
To make the kind of jump in production Dwyer is talking about is a matter of breaking more, since the team's fg% never really fluctuated much either way. Thing is, it wasn't just a matter of Shaq holding their running game back...I doubt there was any team rule that mandated that they weren't allowed to leave Shaq behind on the break. MB wanted low possession basketball, and didn't allow the team to run until he was squeezed in the halfcourt. At one point the Cavs were without Mo, Delonte, Shaq, and Z. No PG's, no post up, no 3-5 pick and pop. The numbers also don't show a tentative Mo struggling with his shot after the shoulder, or the fact that Delonte was in and out of the lineup. Then, for extra bonus, MB had a hard time with what to do with Jamison as he always seemed focused on plugging holes in a rapidly evaporating defense.Shaq inside has made a big difference for Cavs
Posted Feb 4 2010 1:09PM
Looking at their overall statistical profile, this year's Cleveland Cavaliers are very similar to last year's. They play at the sixth slowest pace in the league, they rank in the top five both offensively and defensively, and they're tops in point differential.
But the way the Cavs are scoring and defending is very different this season. While Shaquille O'Neal, with Mo Williams out, is only now starting to put up numbers worthy of a spot on your fantasy team, he's made an impact on the way the Cavs play all season.
With the mid-range game being the most inefficient way to score in the league these days, the most important places on the floor are the paint and the 3-point line. The Cavs have thrived beyond the arc (both offensively and defensively) each of the last two seasons, but the paint is another story.
Look familiar?
Cavaliers by the numbers, last two seasons
Season Pace RK Off. Rat. RK Def. Rat. RK Rat. Diff. RK
2008-09 91.2 25 109.7 4 99.4 3 +10.3 1
2009-10 93.5 25 108.0 5 99.6 3 +8.5 1
Last season, the Cavs scored 36 percent of their points in the paint, a lower percentage than all but three teams in the league. This season, they rank 12th by scoring 43 percent of their points in the paint. Their mid-range points (those not scored in the paint, at the line or beyond the arc) are down to 22 percent (10th in the league) last season to just 16 percent (28th) this season.
The presence of the Diesel has made an impact on the defensive end of the floor as well. Last season, the Cavs' opponents scored 41 percent of their points in the paint. This season, that numbers is down to 37 percent, the lowest in the league. As a result, their opponents' mid-range points are up from 21 percent (15th in the league) last season to 24 percent (third) this season.
So while Shaq isn't the offensive force that he was in the past and he doesn't move too well defensively anymore, he's still a presence in the paint. He hasn't gotten any smaller as the years have gone by. And you can't coach size.
The Cavs have outscored their opponents in the paint in 35 of their 50 games so far this season, and they've won 30 of those. They're just 5-4 when they're outscored in the paint and 4-2 when paint points are even.
Per 100 possessions, the Cavs have a points-in-the-paint differential of +9.4, which is tops in the league. Last season, they ranked 19th with a differential of -1.4.
Who was No. 1 last season? Shaq's Suns, of course.
Points in the paint have been tracked since the 2000-01 season. And in eight of the 10 seasons since, Shaq's team has ranked in the top three in points-in-the-paint differential.
One anomaly was the 2002-03 Lakers, when Kobe Bryant became the team's leading scorer for the first time and shot a lot more threes than he ever had. The other was the season when Shaq was traded from Miami to Phoenix in February and played just 61 games total.
Diesel in the paint
How Shaquille O'Neal's teams have fared
Season Team PIP Diff Rank
2000-01 Lakers +6.7 3
2001-02 Lakers +7.1 2
2002-03 Lakers +3.6 8
2003-04 Lakers +6.6 1
2004-05 Heat +10.5 1
2005-06 Heat +12.0 1
2006-07 Heat +5.5 3
2007-08 Heat (47 G) -5.3 28
2007-08 Suns (34 G) +0.1 17
2008-09 Suns +12.6 1
2009-10 Cavs +9.4 1
PIP Diff = Difference between points-in-paint made
and points allowed in paint
Now, outscoring your opponent in the paint isn't necessarily a formula for success. This season, the 16-31 Pistons rank fifth in the league with a differential of +2.9, while in 2005-06, the 64-18 Pistons were very much a jump-shooting team and ranked last in the league with a differential of -8.6. If you've got four or five guys on the floor who can shoot and you move the ball well, you can still be successful without a post presence.
But the Cavs believe that controlling the paint will be critical for them come May and June. That's why they traded for Shaq last summer and that's why, despite his much larger expiring contract, he won't be the center they trade if they want an upgrade at power forward.
Even though there are some good teams at the bottom of the rankings when it comes to points-in-the-paint differential -- Portland ranks 30th, Toronto ranks 22nd and Dallas ranks 21st -- the teams the Cavs are focused on are all near the top.
The Celtics rank third with a differential of +5.8, the Lakers rank fourth at +3.4, the Magic rank sixth at +2.5 and the Hawks rank 10th at +1.5. So if you can match their size and take away the paint, you will have an advantage against those teams. It's not a coincidence that the aforementioned Pistons, despite their poor record, are one of only three teams who have beat Atlanta, Boston and Orlando this season.
The Cavs, of course, are 5-1 against the Lakers, Celtics and Hawks, with the only loss coming on opening night against Boston. They've won the points-in-the-paint battle in each of the six games, by an average of 10.3 per contest.
A year ago, the Cavs were 6-7 against those teams in the regular season and famously lost to the Magic, 4-2, in the conference semifinals. In two regular season games against the Lakers, they were outscored 104-52 in the paint. They didn't get outscored in the paint in that Orlando series, but Dwight Howard averaged 30.3 points on 66 percent shooting in Orlando's four wins, and it was his size and quickness on the pick-and-roll that allowed his teammates to shoot 41 percent from 3-point range.
In eight career games against Shaq, Howard has averaged just 13.6 points on 56 percent shooting. In the Cavs' Nov. 11 win in Orlando, Howard had just 11 points and took just three shots from the field.
On the surface, Shaq's impact on the Cavs seems minimal. But in the games that matter most, his presence is critical.
I hate run and gun basketball, but in hindsight everyone can agree the Cavs should have run at least a little more. Throw it on the pile with the rest of coulda-shoulda-woulda's that make up the LeBronaliers era.Last edited by HMcCoy; 08-14-2010, 11:19 PM.Hank's Custom Collectibles 3D printer/painter extraordinaireComment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Disclaimer: I am not at all attempting to put a majority of Cleveland's troubles on O'Neal, all I am saying is that Shaq+LBJ equals not good.
That article first off was written in February. It did however have a bunch of interesting stats, much more valid than anything Kash attempted to post no surprise there.
Second, basically the article kind of goes along with what I was saying. You cannot make Shaq any sort of "focus" of your offense these days. You don't want him in there for too long either. As much as it makes sense to "start inside then out", Shaq isn't the guy for that job and hasn't been for three or four years now and I don't give a crap about how Shaq was an "All-Star" in PHX. The numbers the guy posted made Shaq look OK, but let's face it: they looked like a team with no identity and the situation looked very similar to when Shaq was traded to PHX.
I am not putting the blame on Shaq for that it just happens when you sign this-aged Shaq. It happens when you have an inept offensive coach. It happened to the Suns too. The writer tried to say "oh well the Suns had the most points in the paint when Shaq played there".... and that got the Suns where exactly? It got them into the lottery [albeit with Stoudemire missing the last half of the year].
That's why I say Shaq can work in Boston, although they do like to push the ball at times, Shaq can come in there and provide defense off the bench without hindering their overall scheme. Doc will not try to change his attack just because they brought O'Neal in.
In PHX and CLE, their players were much more suited to have an open offense and both should play at high tempos. Nash and James seemed to both have lost a little bit when they were trying to get Shaq involved. To my naked eye it really seemed as if Shaq hindered both of their games. If Cleveland wanted to have a more inside out scheme they really should have looked elsewhere from Shaq, of course with hindsight being 20/20.
I can only imagine what James' numbers could have reached without Shaq out there but with another center.Comment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
What Exactly did James lose with Shaq out there? He had one of if not his best season statistically, Avg close to 9 assists a game and shooting 50% from the field while still having his near 30ppg. The only thing that doesn't make sense is another one of your player bash posts makes no sense.Disclaimer: I am not at all attempting to put a majority of Cleveland's troubles on O'Neal, all I am saying is that Shaq+LBJ equals not good.
That article first off was written in February. It did however have a bunch of interesting stats, much more valid than anything Kash attempted to post no surprise there.
Second, basically the article kind of goes along with what I was saying. You cannot make Shaq any sort of "focus" of your offense these days. You don't want him in there for too long either. As much as it makes sense to "start inside then out", Shaq isn't the guy for that job and hasn't been for three or four years now and I don't give a crap about how Shaq was an "All-Star" in PHX. The numbers the guy posted made Shaq look OK, but let's face it: they looked like a team with no identity and the situation looked very similar to when Shaq was traded to PHX.
I am not putting the blame on Shaq for that it just happens when you sign this-aged Shaq. It happens when you have an inept offensive coach. It happened to the Suns too. The writer tried to say "oh well the Suns had the most points in the paint when Shaq played there".... and that got the Suns where exactly? It got them into the lottery [albeit with Stoudemire missing the last half of the year].
That's why I say Shaq can work in Boston, although they do like to push the ball at times, Shaq can come in there and provide defense off the bench without hindering their overall scheme. Doc will not try to change his attack just because they brought O'Neal in.
In PHX and CLE, their players were much more suited to have an open offense and both should play at high tempos. Nash and James seemed to both have lost a little bit when they were trying to get Shaq involved. To my naked eye it really seemed as if Shaq hindered both of their games. If Cleveland wanted to have a more inside out scheme they really should have looked elsewhere from Shaq, of course with hindsight being 20/20.
I can only imagine what James' numbers could have reached without Shaq out there but with another center.Comment
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Re: The LeBron James Saga
Their identity. That's what they lost [if they ever had one in the first place]. Having to integrate a washed up O'Neal into their offense was too divergent to their other players' skill sets.Comment
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