Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

They also didn't get a bunch of help via free agency or trades.

The Lakers were built through the draft. They had Kareem and then added Magic and Worthy. All of these "great" teams built their dynasty through the draft and trades. They didn't blow everything up to sign LeBron and Bosh.

You might want to look how the Lakers got Kareem, Magic, and Worthy.

Kareem was basically identical to this most recent circus (demanded trade to LA or New York) and Magic and Worthy were acquired in ridiculous trades and compensation.

They are a horrible example to use. They're probably the most shrewdly assembled team in NBA history and far worse than this Heat team.

Great championship teams had more than one all-time great, but they didn't have two of the top-five players in the league, either.

Several did.

I listed earlier several teams with 2 First Team All NBA players.

[HMcCoy]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Sadly, I've got to agree with Ceb. Akronites mostly fall into two categories...those that lump themselves in with Greater Cleveland, (it's only about 35 minutes away, really) and those that are FIERCLY Akronites, and get offended if the distinction isn't recognized. I got some close freinds living in Akron and I've seen both, and LeBron always came off to me as the latter. I've also seen this relationship exist between Lawrence, Mass and Boston when I was in the service and stationed in that area. Im sure it's a pretty common phenomenon.

While I like Borns analogy, the truth is more like if you were dating a hot chick, and telling everyone that she was your girl, but when she introduces you, it's always as "my friend". She soaked up all the benefits of you thinking she was your GF, but in reality, she really didn't care about you all that much...and were the fool for not recognizing the fact that she isn't claiming you. CLE may have been "his city", but was never "his home". We tried to ignore it, but the writing was on the wall the entire time.

I don't agree with Cebby on no one caring tho. Sports fans are familiar with CLE's heartbreaks, and I would imagine that most with no rooting interest were sorta' hoping we woudln't get kicked in the gut again.

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

That's more or less what I was saying.

Saying that Cleveland "raised" or was a "mother" of Lebron is absurd. Lebron clearly didn't feel particularly attached to the city and any feeling of a relationship was serious projecting by Clevelanders. Sure, he may be hated in his home state, but why would he care? It's not like his friends will care when they're partying at Mansion and attending games with the hottest ticket in the US.

I think you took it too literally though (and honestly, I didn't say it or even cosign but it's cool, I can). His point was that's how the fans look at the situation. There just as much at fault for creating that fake relationship. But looking at everything from Barkley's "I'm not a role model" commercial to being personally offended that Tiger cheated on his wife, this is what fans do. No it's not Lebron's fault that the fans all felt he was the son of the city. But he knew it, accepted them treating him like it, and fed into it. He also should have known that handling this situation the way he did would drive them into a rage. Personally I'm disappointed, bc I see it as him being immature and to immersed in himself to even know what he was doing. The other alternative was that he just didn't care which is even worse.

Any normal person in that situation would care if they couldn't comfortably go home, and that a place where they were the greatest person in the world now considers them the devil. But we're also talking about someone who continues to prove their need for attention. I thought he was going to cry seeing somebody burn his jersey. Remember his talk is of EXPANDING his brand. Lebron definitely cares that Ohio hates him.

Back to when I said this, I should make it a little more clear.

The three most recent people I've argued with in this thread are fans of the Chicago Bulls, New York Knicks, and Baltimore Ravens.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that any of them are mad at Lebron for what he did to Cleveland considering that the first two's teams were trying to tear Lebron from Cleveland and the other one took the most beloved team in Cleveland and won a Super Bowl with them shortly after.

lmao, nice. The surprise O's knocked the WS favorite Indians out of the playoffs that year too. I swear I really felt for Cleveland back then. But lets not forget our team was taken first, in the middle of the night... and we didn't even get to keep the name and history. If anybody had sympathy for Cleveland during that time, Baltimore did. Whenever I talked about that situation with a Browns fan, I try to treat them with the respect Lebron should've had when leaving.

Your avatar is a reminder of why Cleveland fans have a right to be so bitter. Losing LeBron and the Browns -- has a city lost more in the sports world?

I'd rather have LeBron in Cleveland the Browns (the old ones or new ones), but that's just me. As it was said on Outside the Lines today, there's a question of the fan-player relationship and what does that player "owe" them? He doesn't owe them anything, but at the same time he should ... he should feel something.

Let's see how the Miami fans treat LeBron if he has the bum elbow or anything. I guarantee you no city would have treated him better through the positives and negatives. What about the jersey burning? It's freedom of expression. Who says to an outgoing superstar in his prime, "good luck, thanks for dissing us."

Man, it wasn't me that took the team, lol. I agree with your post here. I hope he thought that through before making his "Decision".

The potential good news is that Lebron is going to be catching it from so many different angles that it might mature him in the process. If that happens, I'll have to say it was worth it.

Baltimore and it isn't even close.

Bullets, Colts, Babe Ruth, and the Yankees

Don't forget Elway

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

You might want to look how the Lakers got Kareem, Magic, and Worthy.

Kareem was basically identical to this most recent circus (demanded trade to LA or New York) and Magic and Worthy were acquired in ridiculous trades and compensation.

They are a horrible example to use. They're probably the most shrewdly assembled team in NBA history and far worse than this Heat team.

kareem was traded from the bucks in 1975 for:
elmore smith - coming off a season of 11 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg, 3 bpg, 1 spg in 32 minutes.
brian winters - 12th pick of 1974 draft, all-nba rookie, averaged 19 and 5 between 1975 and 1979, eventually had his number retired by the bucks
david meyers - #2 overall draft pick in the 1975 draft
junior bridgeman - #8 overall draft pick in the 1975 draft

not as bad at the time as it looks now. even still, two top ten draft picks, a double double and an all-nba rookie for a guy who said he wanted to get out of the mid-west because it didn't fit his cultural needs. you can't compare that to the recent circus.

magic and worthy were able to be selected because the lakers took advantage of stupid teams in an era of terrible decisions and foolish deals. sounds a lot like today...

their acquisitions are different than this current situation because they were draft picks. it's not like the lakers were trading for established superstars to pair with kareem.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

kareem was traded from the bucks in 1975 for:
elmore smith - coming off a season of 11 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg, 3 bpg, 1 spg in 32 minutes.
brian winters - 12th pick of 1974 draft, all-nba rookie, averaged 19 and 5 between 1975 and 1979, eventually had his number retired by the bucks
david meyers - #2 overall draft pick in the 1975 draft
junior bridgeman - #8 overall draft pick in the 1975 draft

not as bad at the time as it looks now. even still, two top ten draft picks, a double double and an all-nba rookie for a guy who said he wanted to get out of the mid-west because it didn't fit his cultural needs. you can't compare that to the recent circus.

magic and worthy were able to be selected because the lakers took advantage of stupid teams in an era of terrible decisions and foolish deals. sounds a lot like today...

their acquisitions are different than this current situation because they were draft picks. it's not like the lakers were trading for established superstars to pair with kareem.

Don't forget the coin toss that the Lakers won over the Bulls for Magic.

[brahmagoul]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

You might want to look how the Lakers got Kareem, Magic, and Worthy.

Kareem was basically identical to this most recent circus (demanded trade to LA or New York) and Magic and Worthy were acquired in ridiculous trades and compensation.

They are a horrible example to use. They're probably the most shrewdly assembled team in NBA history and far worse than this Heat team.

You're right on the Lakers being a bad comparison and being schrewdly assembled. It was smart moves on the Lakers part; they acquired the pick for Magic a handful of years before even using it. Worthy they ironically got from Cleveland. Again, a move they made a few years in advance.

So, at least the Lakers were put together by making smart moves. Kind of like when a baseball team hits the lottery on a deal for prospects.

There was no situation of a few guys getting together and playing together. This is unprecedented with the Heat. Also, they're not just three big-time players or two superstarts -- BUT ALL THREE OF THEM CAME FROM THE SAME DRAFT CLASS. That's really what makes this Heat situation astonishing to me.

Several did.

I listed earlier several teams with 2 First Team All NBA players.

I couldn't find your list, but let's see.

-The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe.
-The Jordan and Pippen Bulls (plus the Jazz, who didn't even win it)
-Magic and Kareem on the Lakers.

Now, the only year I believe Pippen and Jordan both were All-NBA first teamers was the 72-10 year of 96. You had to put Pippen on there with MJ, but for the most part of the Bulls' runs, I'd call Pippen a top 10 player, not a top 5 player.

[OG_McNabb]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Yeah because it has nothing to do with taking a giant dump on the city of Cleveland and stringing everyone along for the last four years about something he decided on four years ago or at the very least at the NBA trade deadline.

Why do people continue to ignore that when it's been said over and over throughout the course of this thread since the decision was made? So basically what you're saying is, if he had held 'The Decision' and stayed with Cleveland, then people like myself would still be "pissed" at LeBron the way everyone is simply because he didn't pick our teams? Vanna can I have a B and an S? It's disppointing that he didn't come here sure, but you think this is the first year a major free agent has turned down the Bulls or Nets or Knicks? Getta outta here with that.

I basically posted the same thing on another board concerning the same thing. So no, it has nothing to do with you personally. If that is not your frame of mind then good. So get outta here with that Wheel of Fortune isht.

Finally, we are on the same page concernig the Decision. That was some Drama Queen isht. However, didnt some of the proceeds go to charity or something like that.

[OG_McNabb]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

From "The Decision" Lebron IMO doesn't seem to be concerned with his "legacy" because if he did he would not made the BS excuse that he chose miami because he wanted to win. When you just want to win that means your living in the now and making decisions for the now. But when u actually care about having a legacy you would make decision for now that will reflect well in the future. All this just shows how immature Lebron is on decision making and that he didn't get the right kind of wisdom while making this decision. At the same time he doesn't owe Cleveland anything for leaving. I mean being upset is understandable but burning his jersy is just trifling and classless.

I think he set himself up pretty well. He Bosh and Wade SHOULD win multiple championships (that's the point). Lebon and Bosh are only 25, so after Wade retires. Who gets to lead Miami (his own team) or move to another team? It'll be similar to Kobe after Shaq left. Except Lebron will not be riding Wade like Kobe did the Diesel (in his Prime).

I'm not a fan but the dude has already carried trash in Cleveland to the Finals and 60+ wins while almost averaging a Triple Double. His Legacy is fine as of now. Once the winning begins people will forget about this except Cleveland Fans.

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I couldn't find your list, but let's see.

-The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe.
-The Jordan and Pippen Bulls (plus the Jazz, who didn't even win it)
-Magic and Kareem on the Lakers.

Now, the only year I believe Pippen and Jordan both were All-NBA first teamers was the 72-10 year of 96. You had to put Pippen on there with MJ, but for the most part of the Bulls' runs, I'd call Pippen a top 10 player, not a top 5 player.

Yeah I think I posted it in another topic.

McHale and Bird were first team one year as were Dr. J and Moses Malone.

In the 50s and 60s the Celtics and Lakers had 2 first team players on them just about every year.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Yeah I think I posted it in another topic.

McHale and Bird were first team one year as were Dr. J and Moses Malone.

In the 50s and 60s the Celtics and Lakers had 2 first team players on them just about every year.

hard to compare the 50's and 60's era to the modern nba, given the size of the league as well as lack of salary cap and other restrictions.

bird and mchale made the first team in 86-87.
mosea and dr. j were first team in 82-83 and second team in 83-84. admittedly, at that point in his career, dr. j was selected off of name recognition, though.

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

mosea and dr. j were first team in 82-83 and second team in 83-84. admittedly, at that point in his career, dr. j was selected off of name recognition, though.

I kind of doubt that.

In 82 and 83 he finished third and fifth in MVP voting (having won it in 81) and that was with his teammate winning it both years. Having the league MVP three years in a row between 2 players is pretty damned stacked (though Moses was on Houston in 82).

It's actually a pretty good parallel.

The reigning MVP who was a high school pick with no chips goes to a team with a star player that lost in the Finals so he can win a championship...

Moses Malone's legacy is clearly tainted.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I kind of doubt that.

In 82 and 83 he finished third and fifth in MVP voting (having won it in 81) and that was with his teammate winning it both years. Having the league MVP three years in a row between 2 players is pretty damned stacked (though Moses was on Houston in 82).

It's actually a pretty good parallel.

The reigning MVP who was a high school pick with no chips goes to a team with a star player that lost in the Finals so he can win a championship...

Moses Malone's legacy is clearly tainted.

mvp voting isn't necesarily the best way to determine a player's actual performance relative to the rest of the league (malone winning over jordan, dirk winning, nash winning twice, etc.)

moses was also never considered in the running or thought to be on pace with being the best player of all-time. he also didn't completely facilitate that situation.

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

mvp voting isn't necesarily the best way to determine a player's actual performance relative to the rest of the league (malone winning over jordan, dirk winning, nash winning twice, etc.)

It's a pretty damn good determinate.

Nash may not have been better than Shaq in 2005 or Kobe and Lebron in 2006 but he was definitely a top 5 player. Same with Dirk and Kobe in 2007.

Dr. J had 21/7/4/1.5/1.8 on 52% shooting with the best center in the game taking shots. I doubt there was some conspiracy to get him awards. If you're top 5 in MVP voting and First Team All NBA, you're probably a top 5 player.

he also didn't completely facilitate that situation.

What do you mean by this?

He signed with Philly and then got Houston to trade him. That's "facilitating" the situation.

I'm not sure that he wasn't in any discussions for being one of the great ones. He was 26 with 2 MVPs and was averaging about 28 and 14.5 after his first season in the NBA. In his previous 4 seasons he led the league in rebounding 3 times and finished in the top 3 in scoring each year.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

by the way, 1984 is the year dr. j was getting torched so badly by larry bird in a game that moses malone and charles barkley put larry in a headlock and allowed dr. j to get in two sucker-punches.

living off of name recognition isn't saying he wasn't still a very good basketball player, but he wasn't first team all-nba.

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I kind of doubt that.

In 82 and 83 he finished third and fifth in MVP voting (having won it in 81) and that was with his teammate winning it both years. Having the league MVP three years in a row between 2 players is pretty damned stacked (though Moses was on Houston in 82).

It's actually a pretty good parallel.

The reigning MVP who was a high school pick with no chips goes to a team with a star player that lost in the Finals so he can win a championship...

Moses Malone's legacy is clearly tainted.

Where does Moses rank overall now?

The thing is James may have never reached the heights the media and many fans projected for him. It is pretty clear that all the "Global Icon" and "first billion dollar athlete" talk means he either believed that hype too or bought into it 100%. There's no way to go back to see if Moses' situation was as similar in that regard (I don't remember it being that way but it's possible), but as of today all of those thoughts of being among the top few NBA players of all times are pretty much gone. He's lowered his ceiling. Maybe Moses did the same with his move or maybe his ceiling was lower all along... again, I don't remember. But either Moses isn't a good example to use for comparison or is a PERFECT example. Moses is an after thought when talking about the best centers of all times... not a thought at all when talking about the best players. And that's pretty much what anyone has been saying about James.

It's his choice... I just don't look forward to the same self promotion and "Chosen One" talk after this move. Like I said in another thread, if LBJ has a different attitude going forward I'll have no problem with him. If not, then I'll hope he fails.