Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

[NovaStar]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Yep he is, Wwharoton is very knowledgeable about the game.

That said, If Lebron doesn't care about a percieved legacy of a so called GOAT I dont know why so many outsiders are either.

Again, as much as people smash on NBA players for being selfish egomaniacs, dont tell me he didnt set all of that aside from doing this.

Yet and still, KG's legacy was fine when he left and went to Boston, and so was Moses Malone who is an all time great legacy has stayed in tact when he left to join up with Dr J.

At this point, I could care less what LeBron did.. I think some of the fans here are making one point after another after another, but you know what, its his career so let him play it out before calling him coward and a joke and all of the names I've seen over the past couple of days because he left Cleveland.

..and no, everyone here is not all about the "the way he did it" situation, alot of people in here seem to have gained an all of a sudden interest in rooting for LeBron to be the GOAT which is a head scratcher

23. Who or what do you consider to be an outsider? I would venture to say that everyone that posts here is a fan of the NBA (to what level is left to each individual) so no one here is an "outsider". For 7yrs it was forced down every fans throat (by media, espn, nike, nba etc...) that this lebron guy was the next great player, the king, the chosen one etc...some accepted this others did not (I did not). When this type of energy and effort is put into building a person's image, the social response to that campaign, no matter what side you fall on,will naturally will be quite profound.

For you to say that lebron does'nt/didn't care about a perceived legacy of GOAT is kind of, well, off. He believed it, he pertuated it and he benefitted from it. You tell me why a man would tattoo "Chosen 1" on his back if he didn't believe he was in fact chosen. The question is chosen to do what? Answer, be the next great champion, which is tied to legacy formation.

What you and others don't seem to be getting is that in the NBA, historically speaking, legacy's are built on an individual man's ability to raise and lead his team to a championship, it does not matter how many other mvp's or hall of famers are on the team, what matters is, that one player is leading them. Examples, Jordan led (pippen), Magic led (kareem, worthy), Bird led (Mchale and Parrish), Kobe (led Pau gasol). The legacy perks, go to the defined individual leader, then to the team and/or coaches. He does not want to have a so called GOAT legacy, then drop the "king" and "chosen 1" labels and keep it movin.

Your Moses Malone example is misplaced because Doc didn't win a ring until he got Moses Malone, it is a consensus that the ring the Sixer's earned was Moses Malones's (the leader) not Doc's. Doc was near the end of his career.

Lastly, Lebron was selfish in all that he did, he wanted to go play with Wade, cool, but don't spit on your home town and throw a playoff series to do it, and then expect to be praised. All he did to get to Miami is something that a coward would do, and to claim king and chosen 1 in light of all of this makes him a joke.

This is not coming from a clvnd fan, this is coming from a fan of the NBA and basketball, as well as a fan of fair and spirited competition.

[BaselineBakes]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

..and no, everyone here is not all about the "the way he did it" situation, alot of people in here seem to have gained an all of a sudden interest in rooting for LeBron to be the GOAT which is a head scratcher

These were the same people saying he would never get it done after the Boston and Orlando series, now all of a sudden he has the chops to be the greatest of all-time? Everyone that's felt personally attacked over the Jordan comparisons over the years are coming out the woodwork's now.

I think yesterday 23 you said something like the point is to win NBA championships but not in spite of the way MJ did it or something like that, I couldnt agree more, Lebron is going to build his own legacy not MJ's, not Kobe's, we'll just have to wait and see what it is. He's a great player with amazing resources now, as is Wade. We get to watch intriguing careers play out on the same court on a nightly basis now.

[nhiverson]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I never once thought LeBron quit in that series.Jordan, Kobe whoever you wanna name they had guys who could hit a big shot or 2 guys that played there role well. To me even if he is going to Wades team which I agree with, doesn't mean he cant be the guy that leads them to the championship.

I'm honestly glad he left Cleveland they might of surrounded him with pieces but not very good ones. Mo was good but once the pressure was on he turned into a choke artist. I believe Mo,Delonte,Jamison were those guys but most of the time they wouldnt hit the shots throughout the game..I thought Jamison was gonna be the #2 guy he needed cause the wizards always played the Cavs tough and at this point Mo has showed he cant be relied on in the playoffs, but he just didn't play well enough.

The decision thing was a bad idea but who hyped it up not LeBron espn did with the LeBron tracker and commercials. I think if he would of just announced his team like everybody else he would not of got such a negative reaction from everyone.

[Jukeman]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

You just arent getting it man. It makes no difference who the MVP is. Sure it will help his image, but it cant change the fact he decided to join Wades team.

Personally I want to see these 3 Ego's together during some losses. Thats whats gonna be interesting to see.

Wade was a free agent too...

I hear what you guys are saying tho....

Put it like this...These 3 player adopted the name "The Super Friends" some may say that the group is Superman's but others may say Batman is the greatest hero of all time...If anything Bosh is "Robin"

Bottom line I just dont see how this will ruin LBJ's "legacy"...

Easy. You can disagree without going that far. People are getting a bit too heated over this Lebron thing.



On point.



You have to see how far you're stretching to try to make a point. Whether Wade could have gone somewhere else or not, he's the one that's been eating free and having people kiss his feet in Miami for years now. It's HIS town, for at least as long as he wants to stay. The week of him interviewing with other teams didn't change that. It's been his court, his system, coaching staff, GM, etc. Lebron will be adapting to his world.

It doesn't matter what stupid name they want to call themselves. To answer your earlier question, yes, the Celtics are Pierce's team. Garnett makes a point to say it all the time, and when they want the championship, he publicly said Pierce needed to start acting like it if they were going to win. He is the go to player, and that's why I compare Lebron to Garnett alot. Garnett's just built to be a #2. There's nothing wrong with it bc none of us had the illusion that Garnett was going to go down as one of the greatest players ever. HOFer yes, but not on the All Star team of the HOF. It's no big deal that Lebron falls into a #2 either, but we all believed he'd become a #1... and all the self promotion of the same concept just makes this recent move taste even worse. That's why it's ruined his legacy.

Whether he ever reached his enormous potential or not, he's just lowered his ceiling... on purpose.

Im not arguing that...How does this taint LBJ's "Legacy" because ESPN broadcasted his decision???

LBJ gave you the illusion that he was going to be the greatest ever? in another thread you said he's not a finisher...There have been many "stat stuffers" in this league...

I don't know what you're arguing then when you keep saying Wade was a free agent too. Seriously, that's very very far from a good point.

I didn't say anything about ESPN or the spectacle he decided to create. That's a completely different issue. The accurate way to put it is he's tainted the potential for his legacy. It's possible he would've never reached the level he seemed to be on pace for. It's possible that his career would've been similar to Garnett... that's what everyone seems to have expected from the Cavs for whatever reason. But it was also possible that he was still on pace to lead the Cavs (of all teams) to multiple NBA titles, carving a very special place for himself in the record books. Now, he'll still be a HOFer no matter what, but his "legacy" doesn't have a chance at reaching the potential it had, just by him signing with Miami. Don't really know how else to put it. It's not like his potential legacy is horrible now... it's just nowhere near what it was a week ago.

Im arguing how his decision of joining the Heats will ruin his legacy???

Fropm your answer just now, I assume your expectations of LBJs legacy is on the level of MJ's...I do not...Its like people want Lebrick to recreate Jordan's career or he failed...Let the guy build his own path...

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Thanks guys... I really would like that steak though.

Yep he is, Wwharoton is very knowledgeable about the game.

That said, If Lebron doesn't care about a percieved legacy of a so called GOAT I dont know why so many outsiders are either.

Again, as much as people smash on NBA players for being selfish egomaniacs, dont tell me he didnt set all of that aside from doing this.

Yet and still, KG's legacy was fine when he left and went to Boston, and so was Moses Malone who is an all time great legacy has stayed in tact when he left to join up with Dr J.

At this point, I could care less what LeBron did.. I think some of the fans here are making one point after another after another, but you know what, its his career so let him play it out before calling him coward and a joke and all of the names I've seen over the past couple of days because he left Cleveland.

..and no, everyone here is not all about the "the way he did it" situation, alot of people in here seem to have gained an all of a sudden interest in rooting for LeBron to be the GOAT which is a head scratcher

And this is a good point. I'll say this, if LBJ just snuck his way down to Miami (we found out on a ticker or an ESPN report) I would just be disappointed in him. I won't go as far as saying I hate him or anything but NovaStar broke down a lot of my feelings on how we got to this point.

Personally, I had my reservations when this HS kid was the next in line to be called the one that knocked off Jordan. After his ROY winning performance I became a little more open to the possibility. After he took THAT team to the finals, I gave him a slight chance and began rooting for him to start making a legitimate case. He's still younger than MJ was when he won his 1st, and only a year removed from MJ's time in the league. Jordan had some god awful Bulls teams too. There really has never been a player as close to having a chance to knock off MJ as LBJ was.

I'll accept that he personally gave up on that dream... it's his life. But much like my issues with Shaq, if that's how you feel then tone down all the other nonsense. KG also isn't a good example imo bc he gave it all he had and just wasn't good enough to get it done. We can say he didn't have enough help but that also means that he was only good enough to win with more help... I still believe a mature LBJ could've gotten it done without nearly the amount of help that KG needed. And KG's game is really built for that supporting role.

So yeah, you're right. No reason to hate James for deciding he's not what many thought he had a chance to be. But there is reason to hate him for embracing everything that comes with what many thought he could be while running away from that dream for an easier one. If he appears more humble going forward, I'll back off him a bit but all signs point to that not happening... starting with his press conference that came about a week after his two new teammates signed.

Im arguing how his decision of joining the Heats will ruin his legacy???

Fropm your answer just now, I assume your expectations of LBJs legacy is on the level of MJ's...I do not...Its like people want Lebrick to recreate Jordan's career or he failed...Let the guy build his own path...

In addition to my other post, see the reply to 23 above. His "brand" is built around the legacy that we're talking about. That legacy is now gone. We'll see how he approaches this new path, but he was all in with everyone kissing his *** about being the next MJ, better than Kobe, eventual top 3 player in NBA history, etc. Walking out the door he blamed not reaching those goals yet on his teammates. I don't know if you played sports but he doesn't talk, act, think like a winner or a leader. He acts like a follower. He was fooling a lot of people and probably hasn't even realized yet that he's showing the world his true self and how that will hurt him based on how he's been presenting himself outside of his basketball skills.

[Pared]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Ha, we're discussing this same exact thing in the Lebron thread.

When you look back and LBJ's career, this will be marked as a defining point in his career by the media.

And they will be able to paint the picture how they would like - it was either a smart move or a move that seems to admit that he wasn't an "Alpha male" who could be the dominant figure on his team and make lesser players around him better.

Don't get upset at others who are bringing this point up. It's just a fact in how it will be reflected upon. That's all most are saying.

When people say "won it on their own" they mean they carried their team much like LBJ has been doing with the Cavs all this time. You know, in all those games where his teammates disappeared, like Mo did most playoff runs.

[NovaStar]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Thanks guys... I really would like that steak though.



And this is a good point. I'll say this, if LBJ just snuck his way down to Miami (we found out on a ticker or an ESPN report) I would just be disappointed in him. I won't go as far as saying I hate him or anything but NovaStar broke down a lot of my feelings on how we got to this point.

Personally, I had my reservations when this HS kid was the next in line to be called the one that knocked off Jordan. After his ROY winning performance I became a little more open to the possibility. After he took THAT team to the finals, I gave him a slight chance and began rooting for him to start making a legitimate case. He's still younger than MJ was when he won his 1st, and only a year removed from MJ's time in the league. Jordan had some god awful Bulls teams too. There really has never been a player as close to having a chance to knock off MJ as LBJ was.

I'll accept that he personally gave up on that dream... it's his life. But much like my issues with Shaq, if that's how you feel then tone down all the other nonsense. KG also isn't a good example imo bc he gave it all he had and just wasn't good enough to get it done. We can say he didn't have enough help but that also means that he was only good enough to win with more help... I still believe a mature LBJ could've gotten it done without nearly the amount of help that KG needed. And KG's game is really built for that supporting role.

So yeah, you're right. No reason to hate James for deciding he's not what many thought he had a chance to be. But there is reason to hate him for embracing everything that comes with what many thought he could be while running away from that dream for an easier one. If he appears more humble going forward, I'll back off him a bit but all signs point to that not happening... starting with his press conference that came about a week after his two new teammates signed.



In addition to my other post, see the reply to 23 above. His "brand" is built around the legacy that we're talking about. That legacy is now gone. We'll see how he approaches this new path, but he was all in with everyone kissing his *** about being the next MJ, better than Kobe, eventual top 3 player in NBA history, etc. Walking out the door he blamed not reaching those goals yet on his teammates. I don't know if you played sports but he doesn't talk, act, think like a winner or a leader. He acts like a follower. He was fooling a lot of people and probably hasn't even realized yet that he's showing the world his true self and how that will hurt him based on how he's been presenting himself outside of his basketball skills.

As usual, Wharton, on point.

[NovaStar]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Ha, we're discussing this same exact thing in the Lebron thread.

When you look back and LBJ's career, this will be marked as a defining point in his career by the media.

And they will be able to paint the picture how they would like - it was either a smart move or a move that seems to admit that he wasn't an "Alpha male" who could be the dominant figure on his team and make lesser players around him better.

Don't get upset at others who are bringing this point up. It's just a fact in how it will be reflected upon. That's all most are saying.

When people say "won it on their own" they mean they carried their team much like LBJ has been doing with the Cavs all this time. You know, in all those games where his teammates disappeared, like Mo did most playoff runs.

I agree Pared. Hey, what do you think about the Knicks going after Carmelo and Chris Paul next year? Now that is what I am talking about!

[Pared]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I agree Pared. Hey, what do you think about the Knicks going after Carmelo and Chris Paul next year? Now that is what I am talking about!

I'm not 100% on the CP signing happening (after Felton's signing) but I'd love to see Carmelo under the bright lights in MSG.

[OG_McNabb]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Yea it seems like the OP was arguing against something that not many people are talking about. From what I've seen, the majority of folks are disappointed with LBJ fleeing to another team with an established superstar. Most would have liked to see him do it as "the man" on his team, and be the attraction for other players to want to come join him.

I don't know why anyone would say that they want him to do it "alone," because like you've said, most teams that's won a championship in recent history has had an "alpha male" on the team. But look at who they are: Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kobe, D-Wade, Paul Pierce.

What do all of those guys have in common? They stood their ground and had a contender built around them, they didn't flee to another team to grab a ring. And they're all considered one of the elite players of their generation. LBJ was supposed to also be in that discussion.

Right now this whole situation is still in it's honeymoon period where everyone is so happy and elated because of their new situation. I want to see what James' mindset is 4 years into his stint in M.I.A.

I just dont understand why all of a sudden people are jocking Kobe. I guess it's selective memory. Like they/you forgot how he almost pouted his way out of town. Until that BS trade that brought Gasol to LA. What makes him so grounded now. He was trying to leave as well.

I'll type it again. I'd rather Lebron didnt join Wade and Bosh. Let Wade get his but what can I do. I'll root for them anyway (even though I dont like Lebron). But all Hail the NWO. Welcome to the Darkside.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I just dont understand why all of a sudden people are jocking Kobe. I guess it's selective memory. Like they/you forgot how he almost pouted his way out of town. Until that BS trade that brought Gasol to LA. What makes him so grounded now. He was trying to leave as well.

I'll type it again. I'd rather Lebron didnt join Wade and Bosh. Let Wade get his but what can I do. I'll root for them anyway (even though I dont like Lebron). But all Hail the NWO. Welcome to the Darkside.

It still basically comes down to the same argument over and over I think. I know myself, I'll never like Kobe, I can't stand the guy. However the difference in the situations is Kobe wanted to leave the Lakers and apparently wanted to go to the Bulls. Kobe's teammates on that Bulls squad would have been Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, Andres Nocioni and Ben Wallace (someone out of that group might have gone in the trade along with Deng if it happened), nothing too much better than the Lakers he wanted off of. He wasn't going to join Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman and the Bulls. He wasn't trying to leave to go to Cleveland with Bron, or Denver with Melo or Wade in Miami. So that's the difference.

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

It still basically comes down to the same argument over and over I think. I know myself, I'll never like Kobe, I can't stand the guy. However the difference in the situations is Kobe wanted to leave the Lakers and apparently wanted to go to the Bulls. Kobe's teammates on that Bulls squad would have been Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, Andres Nocioni and Ben Wallace (someone out of that group might have gone in the trade along with Deng if it happened), nothing too much better than the Lakers he wanted off of. He wasn't going to join Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman and the Bulls. He wasn't trying to leave to go to Cleveland with Bron, or Denver with Melo or Wade in Miami. So that's the difference.

All of this... and Kobe also already had 3 rings and I believe at this time there may have been reasons he felt he needed a change of scenery since he was dealing with the struggles of the team and things in his personal life.

I don't think Kobe's a good comparison of a player that "stuck it out" but more bc he's on the freaking Lakers and already had won championships. I don't think many took his requests all that seriously anyway, but if we're going to compare all King_B_Mack just mentioned has to be considered. As well as the fact that the Cavs were clearly willing to do pretty much anything LBJ wanted which is exactly what Kobe was bitching about with his trade requests. We don't know how far LBJ's power extended but his boys having jobs in the organization is more than enough to know it was too much.

[Jukeman]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Thanks guys... I really would like that steak though.



And this is a good point. I'll say this, if LBJ just snuck his way down to Miami (we found out on a ticker or an ESPN report) I would just be disappointed in him. I won't go as far as saying I hate him or anything but NovaStar broke down a lot of my feelings on how we got to this point.

Personally, I had my reservations when this HS kid was the next in line to be called the one that knocked off Jordan. After his ROY winning performance I became a little more open to the possibility. After he took THAT team to the finals, I gave him a slight chance and began rooting for him to start making a legitimate case. He's still younger than MJ was when he won his 1st, and only a year removed from MJ's time in the league. Jordan had some god awful Bulls teams too. There really has never been a player as close to having a chance to knock off MJ as LBJ was.

I'll accept that he personally gave up on that dream... it's his life. But much like my issues with Shaq, if that's how you feel then tone down all the other nonsense. KG also isn't a good example imo bc he gave it all he had and just wasn't good enough to get it done. We can say he didn't have enough help but that also means that he was only good enough to win with more help... I still believe a mature LBJ could've gotten it done without nearly the amount of help that KG needed. And KG's game is really built for that supporting role.

So yeah, you're right. No reason to hate James for deciding he's not what many thought he had a chance to be. But there is reason to hate him for embracing everything that comes with what many thought he could be while running away from that dream for an easier one. If he appears more humble going forward, I'll back off him a bit but all signs point to that not happening... starting with his press conference that came about a week after his two new teammates signed.



In addition to my other post, see the reply to 23 above. His "brand" is built around the legacy that we're talking about. That legacy is now gone. We'll see how he approaches this new path, but he was all in with everyone kissing his *** about being the next MJ, better than Kobe, eventual top 3 player in NBA history, etc. Walking out the door he blamed not reaching those goals yet on his teammates. I don't know if you played sports but he doesn't talk, act, think like a winner or a leader. He acts like a follower. He was fooling a lot of people and probably hasn't even realized yet that he's showing the world his true self and how that will hurt him based on how he's been presenting himself outside of his basketball skills.

Ive realized that back when he was still in HS...I didnt and still dont believe the hype the media(Not LBJ) gave us...

He's just another great player mixed in with alot of other great NBA players throughout its history...He's not on Jordan's or wasnt even on pace to be on his level...

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Ive realized that back when he was still in HS...I didnt and still dont believe the hype the media(Not LBJ) gave us...

He's just another great player mixed in with alot of other great NBA players throughout its history...He's not on Jordan's or wasnt even on pace to be on his level...

See I don't think Bron get's to get absolved of the hype surrounding him. He's embraced everything that he's been hyped up to be. He chose to wear 23, everybody knows what that number means and what it's going to mean when you put it on. He chose to do his own variation of Jordan's powder routine. He chose to tattoo 'Chosen One' on his back. He's demanding the moves be made by the front office to assist him, he's getting his buddies taken care of by the organization, he's making teammates families have to park in the regualr lot for his boys to get the inside parking. So I don't neccessarily buy that LeBron get's all 'THE GUY' perks and then gets to throw up his hands in innocence of trying to be 'THE GUY' when he doesn't make 'THE GUY' moves.

[Jukeman]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

See I don't think Bron get's to get absolved of the hype surrounding him. He's embraced everything that he's been hyped up to be. He chose to wear 23, everybody knows what that number means and what it's going to mean when you put it on. He chose to do his own variation of Jordan's powder routine. He chose to tattoo 'Chosen One' on his back. He's demanding the moves be made by the front office to assist him, he's getting his buddies taken care of by the organization, he's making teammates families have to park in the regualr lot for his boys to get the inside parking. So I don't neccessarily buy that LeBron get's all 'THE GUY' perks and then gets to throw up his hands in innocence of trying to be 'THE GUY' when he doesn't make 'THE GUY' moves.

who doesnt wear number 23?

If you had the power he was givien, would u not take it or would u be "humble"???

We love to judge people lol