Chris Bosh is not a superstar

[AlexBrady]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Really? How did you come to that conclusion?

Because of all of the choke performances in big games for the Timberwolves. His choking in game 3 and game 5 of the 08 Finals and his miserable 4th quarter in game 7 of the latest Finals.

His constant complaining for reinforcements in Minnesota when his teammates were plenty good enough to win a title. Honestly, his enormous salary hamstrung the TWolves which didn't allow them to sign another star big for Garnett to play with.

And ultimately, where did this supposed "superstar" big lead the TWolves? Nowhere. In Boston he can be what he was meant to be all along...... a complementary player.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Allen was definitely more of an impact player in 08. In truth, it was Allen and Pierce that were the true stars of that team. These two would make the clutch buckets and carry their team to victory. Bosh will not be expected to carry the load in the clutch like Allen had to (due to Garnett's choke artistry).

Garnett is one of the best role players in the history of the game. Unfortunately, he is a choke artist and cannot be the featured player on any team. He fooled the good fans in Minnesota into thinking he was a franchise player.

For a guy who is quick to say something about guys not showing up on both ends of the court I can't believe you are just disregarding Garnett's impact on that team defensively. Without KG that team doesn't come anywhere close to winning that championship. Plus saying that Paul and Allen took those last second shots is a very flawed argument. No team goes to thier big with the game on the line except Dallas and the Spurs sometimes (Horry and Manu took most of the last shots). It doesn't matter how good of a scorer KG is or was when you have one of the greatest shooters of all time and a very reliable 4th quarter all star on the same team. KG has made some big buckets during his day but if would be foolish to think he was suppose to be the man to take those second shots on that team.

I can also not believe you called KG a role player. Again you are the man that wants to point out a player's defensive flaws or lack of passing skills but then just disregard the all around greatness of KG. In Minny the man was an All NBA defensive player (only Duncan, who might have been better, can even be put on that same level), the best rebounder in the NBA bar none (four straight rebounding titles would say that), an excellent passer (6 straight seasons of at least 5 assists), and a legit 20 plus a night scorer. There was nothing on the court he couldn't do. Let's be real here his supportting cast was mediocre and the one time they put some real help around him during his prime they went to the WCF's.

The real drive home point though is Minny never made the playoffs before Garnett got there. They where a 20 something win team. He turned that into a 50 win team. After he left they are again a 20 something win team.
Sounds pretty damn good to me.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Garnett absolutely is a great defender. His defensive range, energy, and length anchored the Celtics and TWolves defense. He was also a very good rebounder. His passing was good (until the clutch). His shooting was good (until the clutch where no one even bothers to cover him). A great role player but he just isn't/wasn't good enough to be a team's franchise player.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

His constant complaining for reinforcements in Minnesota when his teammates were plenty good enough to win a title. Honestly, his enormous salary hamstrung the TWolves which didn't allow them to sign another star big for Garnett to play with.

And what teammates where these?? You mean the likes of Joe Smith, Wally Szczerbiak, and Rosho Nesterovic as your starting help not guys off the bench is good enough to win a title?? Not even MJ could lead that cast of guys to a title. Please just stop it.

How is his contract his fault?? Don't blame him for that blame the team management. They are the ones who put the offer on the table. No 21 year old in thier right mind on this planet would turn down 126 million dollars.

And ultimately, where did this supposed "superstar" big lead the TWolves? Nowhere. In Boston he can be what he was meant to be all along...... a complementary player.

This from the same guy who said Mitch Richmond was a Hall of Famer. Where exactly did your "Hall of Famer" Mitch Richmond lead the Kings?? Hell they only made the playoffs once and that was with a losing record as the 8th seed. He never even carried them to a winning record. So how is he a HOF'er and star to you yet KG was an underachieving role player??

I'm not taking a shot at you or anything like that. Just trying to understand the logic behind this. You make some good points on things and players but there there are times where you make post like these and it makes you wonder sometimes.

[Vast]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Great Post T11.

AlexBrady is definitely salty at KG for some reason. KG was definitely a superstar in Minnesota and without him there would be no 08 championship for the Celtics. KG was injured in 09 and we saw what happened. This year he wasn't the same player unfortunately.

[HotGarbage]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Because of all of the choke performances in big games for the Timberwolves. His choking in game 3 and game 5 of the 08 Finals and his miserable 4th quarter in game 7 of the latest Finals.

His constant complaining for reinforcements in Minnesota when his teammates were plenty good enough to win a title. Honestly, his enormous salary hamstrung the TWolves which didn't allow them to sign another star big for Garnett to play with.

And ultimately, where did this supposed "superstar" big lead the TWolves? Nowhere. In Boston he can be what he was meant to be all along...... a complementary player.

[wwharton]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

A players career goes trough different phases, so has to be the criteria ... do I believe Kobe was an allstar pre Shaq ? no ... do I believe he was a superstar with Shaq ? No, not until that last year together ... was Pippen a Superstar ? yes in 1994-96, when MJ was out and even when he came back and they lost in playoffs ... and that also is part of my criteria ... player may be hall of fames but they dont neccesarily have to be franchise type players ... if so, there wouldnt be so many of them ... at least, they would be fewer.

Yeah, your criteria is way off. You're saying that Pippen wasn't a superstar any of the championship years? Are you also saying that on teams of Magic/Kareem/Worthy there was only one superstar? The last championship Kobe and Shaq won together, Kobe wasn't a superstar? Duncan and Robinson... the list goes on.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

The return of Pretty

Where you been at player?

[PrettyT11]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

The return of Pretty

Where you been at player?

Was having some CPU troubles there for a while and was busy as hell. I have been lurking the past week or 2 since getting the CPU issues worked out just reading but not really posting.

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Dominique was without question a superstar and a franchise player. He just had the misfortune to go up against some historic teams. He had some great playoff battles with Larry Bird and thier game 7 battle in 88 will be talked about forever(Nique put up 47 on Bird). He carried his average at best supporting cast to the playoffs almost every year and just happened to lose to the likes of thos 80's Celtics, the back to back Pistions, and the Bulls. There is no shame in losing to those teams. Especially when thier star is a better player than he was and those guys help was far better than what Nique had. He only had another all star on his team twice. Doc Rivers one year and a 34 year old Moses Molone another. Compare that to Bird and Thomas help and it's not even close. Those guys had Hall of Fame teammates let alone all stars.

Yes Nique's defense wasn't that great but his role was to get buckets. If he didn't score chances are they wouldn't win. He had to carry them with his scoring and he did that very well as well as being a solid rebounder. They had multiple 50 win seasons again going up against the likes of Jordan, Bird, and Thomas. He was a lights out scorer during the NBA's golden age and would easily put up 30 plus a night in todays game.

Lastly if you consider guys like Melo, Yao, T-Mac (Orlando and maybe first couple of Houston years), and Iverson (obviously not now When he was in Philly) superstar or franchise players then Nique was without question. Out of that group only Iverson had more team success (one finals run) and only Iverson had more individual accolades. Melo and Mac have never been out of the first round and Yao has only done it once.

i guess we can agree to disagree. i'm not knocking dominique at all, it's not a disservice to say he's not a player you build your franchise around. he's a great scorer and will certainly sell tickets because of highlight reel forays to the hoop. but that does not make you a franchise player, that's literally the blueprint for a superstar.

i agree, he was certainly a solid rebounder, averaging around 7 per game, on top of his 25 points a night. but to excuse him for not being a defensive presence, creating buckets for others, or really adding much to the success of his team aside from scoring points is a bit misguided. there's plenty of room in teh league for guys who get buckets in bunches, but that's not all it takes to be a franchise player.

and to address your last point, i would not build my franchise around allen iverson. i'd take orlando and the first year or two of t-mac, i'd take carmelo and i'd take yao, though i can't call him a franchise player because he's not built to last.

amongst other things, i view a franchise player as someone who would want to stop the guy playing opposite him from torching him, opposed to just wanting to outduel him. that's clearly not the only definition of franchise player, but you certainly have to have the mentality that going point for point with the other guy probably isn't the best way to achieve victory. every single story, highlight or moment anyone remembers from dominique involves a dunk or a story about him scoring. if you can't change the complexion of the game in more than one way, you either need to be one of the most transcendant people to ever play the sport using that skill or you and your superstars should recognize that you are simply not capable of being the centerpiece of a championship franchise.

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

re: kevin garnett

he's obviously a lock for the hall of fame. i think he's a player you can build a franchise around but he's not a franchise player. that may be confusing, but i think he's a guy you can start a franchise with and fill in the spots around him with guys that can play off of his game. basically, that's the blueprint for the celtics team (though they obviously had many things in place already). he's been an elite defender, a top-level rebounder, a good passer, a solid scorer and an elite intangibles guy. beacuse of that, you just need to fill in the blanks in order to field a team that should be able to view for championships. he does a lot to make things easier.

however, i wouldn't call him a franchise player because he's not the guy you want to go to if it's all on his shoulders. he's not in the company of that top level of the hall of fame (those who read bill simmons' book understand the reference). i think it's a product of him having gone from high school and getting no crunch-time reps in college or in his first few years in the league because his teams were not competitive. unlike duncan, who played big games in the acc in college and was immediately put into a great situation in san antonio. garnett had it much tougher, and either became or was always destined to be a different animal compared to duncan, and thus has not earned the distinction of a franchise player.

[PrettyT11]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

i guess we can agree to disagree. i'm not knocking dominique at all, it's not a disservice to say he's not a player you build your franchise around. he's a great scorer and will certainly sell tickets because of highlight reel forays to the hoop. but that does not make you a franchise player, that's literally the blueprint for a superstar.

i agree, he was certainly a solid rebounder, averaging around 7 per game, on top of his 25 points a night. but to excuse him for not being a defensive presence, creating buckets for others, or really adding much to the success of his team aside from scoring points is a bit misguided. there's plenty of room in teh league for guys who get buckets in bunches, but that's not all it takes to be a franchise player.

and to address your last point, i would not build my franchise around allen iverson. i'd take orlando and the first year or two of t-mac, i'd take carmelo and i'd take yao, though i can't call him a franchise player because he's not built to last.

amongst other things, i view a franchise player as someone who would want to stop the guy playing opposite him from torching him, opposed to just wanting to outduel him. that's clearly not the only definition of franchise player, but you certainly have to have the mentality that going point for point with the other guy probably isn't the best way to achieve victory. every single story, highlight or moment anyone remembers from dominique involves a dunk or a story about him scoring. if you can't change the complexion of the game in more than one way, you either need to be one of the most transcendant people to ever play the sport using that skill or you and your superstars should recognize that you are simply not capable of being the centerpiece of a championship franchise.

I see what you saying but I also believe that some of the stories on Nique now are a bit of revisionist history. Again some of the guys he was going against are all time greats. Not to mention all time level teams. Yes his D could have been better but when you have to carry so much of an offensive load something else is going to have to give and it wasn't like he was a complete non factor on defense. It's just his offensive game and explosiveness of it over shadows everything else. There are very few players who dominated on both ends of the court and that why they are regarded on such a higher level than everyone else.

As far as Melo goes what really is the difference between him and Nique if there is any at all?? I am a fan of both and saw tons of games of them both. I mean yes Melo can score in more ways than Nique but at the end of the day they both are just scorers. Melo defense up until the last year or so has always left alot more to be desired. He doesn't create shots for other players and he isn't any better on the glass than Nique. So basically you have to top level scorers that don't excel at any other part of the game. If you take the team success into it Nique had more success with less talent around him. So why would you build around one and not the other??

[The15thunter]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

I see what you saying but I also believe that some of the stories on Nique now are a bit of revisionist history. Again some of the guys he was going against are all time greats. Not to mention all time level teams. Yes his D could have been better but when you have to carry so much of an offensive load something else is going to have to give and it wasn't like he was a complete non factor on defense. It's just his offensive game and explosiveness of it over shadows everything else. There are very few players who dominated on both ends of the court and that why they are regarded on such a higher level than everyone else.

As far as Melo goes what really is the difference between him and Nique if there is any at all?? I am a fan of both and saw tons of games of them both. I mean yes Melo can score in more ways than Nique but at the end of the day they both are just scorers. Melo defense up until the last year or so has always left alot more to be desired. He doesn't create shots for other players and he isn't any better on the glass than Nique. So basically you have to top level scorers that don't excel at any other part of the game. If you take the team success into it Nique had more success with less talent around him. So why would you build around one and not the other??

i say this in the most unbiased way, because despite being from baltimore, i'm not really a carmelo fan.

i think carmelo is a better offensive player. 'nique was more explosive and the better dunker, but carmelo can hurt you from three ('nique knew better than to try that), is a superior mid-range scorer and post scorer. 'nique is better going to the hoop, but even that isn't blowing carmelo out of the water because he's very effective going to the hole and gets fouled with regularlty.

carmelo is a better rebounder, particularly offensively. he's also added some pride to his defensive efforts that seem to have evaded dominique. 'melo is a better creator and passer, as well.

i understand that dominique had to contend with the pistons, bulls and celtics, while 'melo basically just has the lakers and a bunch of team that don't compare. but, i think he is someone i'd be more comfortable with carrying my franchise as the foundation piece, because he is a more dynamic offensive weapon, a better defender, and a better rebounder, while not having the same level of selfish statistics driven nature that wilkins had.

[wwharton]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Lets also consider that Nique's career is over and Melo may not even be at his peak yet. If we were looking back on both of their careers then they probably do appear very similar. However there is reason to believe Melo is still developing, and his history in college (as well as his play in the olympics) gives reason to believe he can lead a team and do whatever it takes, beyond just scoring to get over the hump. There was a time when we thought Nique had that in him too but years and years of the same before eventually he's gone, and his entire path became much clearer.

[dsallupinyaarea]

Re: Chris Bosh is not a superstar

Re: KG

I think we need to add another level to the evaluation of a player. KG was a superstar but he wasn't an Alpha-Male. Nothing wrong with that. Pippen, Mchale, Worthy, 00-02 Kobe all made careers out of the role. I live in MN and KG was everything you'd want in a basketball player. That being said, most fans in MN always felt like he wasn't a true number 1 player that will carry a team to a title. He just seemed so much more comfortable in Boston when the offense didn't run through him and he could just play great defense and fill in the blanks.