MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

[NINJAK2]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Jason Kidd left the Mavs in 1996, to join the Phoenix Suns. Which immediately nullifies your point that he averaged 9 assists a game in the late 90's in Dallas, because he wasn't ON THE MAVS in the late 90's. And the coach was Dick Motta. Jim Cleamons joined the Mavs as coach the same year Kidd was traded to Phoenix. Nice try though...

It does not nullify my point..he played 22 games under clemons in Dallas in the 1996-1997 season and averaged 9.2 assists a game in the triangle dragon.
Kidd

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01.html

Clemons

http://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/cleamji01c.html

Jordan once averaged 32 points and 8 assists, when he WASN'T in the triangle. Proving that it's possible to shoot alot, AND assist alot in the right offense( i.e give the ball to Michael and get the f**k out the way). Iverson has averaged 30 and 8 assists, and hell, who shot more than HIM in his glory days? Lebron averaged 30 and 7 in Cleveland, again without a triangle offense. In all 3 cases, the players above were in an offense where they were totally ball-dominant, which allowed them carte blanche to rake up high scoring and assist numbers at once. The triangle offense is predicated on ball/player movement, and not one player dominating the ball to the point where they can rake up incredible assist numbers. Especially if they're high volume scorers as well. I have no hesitation in saying that if Kobe was in a different offense, he'd get more than 4-5 assists a game. More like 6-7.

Are you now saying that MJ and Kobe do not dominate the ball (touches) within the triangle? Seriously? As Kash said early if these guys have the ball in their hands enough to shoot they could be passing as well. It's the mentality of the players more so than the system imo. If u swaped Lebron and Kobe in the triangle I think because of Lebron's mentality he would average more assits than Kobe playing with Odom, Bynum, Gasol, etc. Kobe is a willing passer while Lebron imo seems to really like making plays or defering to others -a trait LBJ was often criticized for.

The Lakers are more successful when Kobe's supporting players are into the game, and when Kobe DOESN'T have to score 30.

They can't get into the game without the ball right....

A chucker is someone who shoots a ton, at a low percentage, and doesn't know when to stop after missing 15 of 20 shots. Michael Jordan was a career 50% shooter, which at the volume of shots he took is EFFICIENT, not CHUCKING. All the best scorers in the league shoot ALOT for the most part. So your definition of chucker would relate to just about every 20ppg and higher scorer in the NBA.

Sorry for not using the word "chucker" in the right context. I've yet to make it to the bookstore to pick up "Dragonyeuw-Websters English Sports Dictionary". When I do X-mas shopping 2day I'll check Borders to see if I can get a copy.

Considering you called my opinion hogwash, you're in no position to be lecturing anyone else about not respecting opinions.

Sorry for not agreeing with you and responding in what you felt was an inappropriate manner..Sincerely

Sorry Ninja, come back in another month. U too

Responses in bold. Have a good holiday as well Dragon.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

It does not nullify my point..he played 22 games under clemons in Dallas in the 1996-1997 season and averaged 9.2 assists a game in the triangle dragon.
Kidd
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../kiddja01.html
Clemons
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...leamji01c.html

So you think 22 games is enough of a sample size? He averaged 9 assists for 22 games, which is 1/4 of a season, and you use that as proof that he'd be the same player in the triangle offense over many years? Lol..... Jason Kidd's game is dependent on him controlling the ball, not on him being in an offense where he doesn't control the ball.


Are you now saying that MJ and Kobe do not dominate the ball (touches) within the triangle? Seriously? As Kash said early if these guys have the ball in their hands enough to shoot they could be passing as well. It's the mentality of the players more so than the system imo. If u swaped Lebron and Kobe in the triangle I think because of Lebron's mentality he would average more assits than Kobe playing with Odom, Bynum, Gasol, etc. Kobe is a willing passer while Lebron imo seems to really like making plays or defering to others -a trait LBJ was often criticized for.

No, I didn't say Jordan or Kobe never dominated the ball. Comprehension, my friend. I said in another post, and will repeat for your benefit, the times when Jordan and Kobe dominated the ball was times when they BROKE THE TRIANGLE. The triangle offense is not an offense where one player dominates the ball. If they do, it's because they broke it to create a scoring opportunity for themselves. Hell, Jordan and Kobe are the most dominant offensive perimeter players in NBA history. Why the hell wouldn't you take advantage of their offensive gifts? And considering they've won 11 championships between them, are you trying to argue that the formula didn't work at the end of the day?

Sorry for not using the word "chucker" in the right context. I've yet to make it to the bookstore to pick up "Dragonyeuw-Websters English Sports Dictionary". When I do X-mas shopping 2day I'll check Borders to see if I can get a copy.

That's my definition. You haven't refuted it with anything, except sarcasm. Are all high scorers chuckers? Because all high scorers shoot alot.Sarcasm doesn't make your point anymore correct, when it's all you use as a response to what I said.

U too

Only when you wish to restart the argument again after a month.

Have a good holiday as well Dragon.

Likewise.

Response in red italics.

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

No-one in the triangle offense has ever averaged really high assist numbers. My point isn't in defense of anyone. When someone in the triangle offense one day averages 8-9 assists a game, then my theory is shot. Until then, historical precedence has been set that the triangle offense doesn't allow for any one player to be ball-dominant enough to amass high assist numbers. Note that Jordan was averaging more assists per game when he had total carte blanche in the late 80's, than when the triangle was used once Phil Jackson took over. To my memory, the only player who has broken like even 7 assists a game in the triangle was Pippen. But you're not likely to see any one player be among the league leaders in assists playing in the triangle. That's whether they happen to be a dominant scorer like a Jordan or Kobe, or more of a pass-first player. It's just 'not' that kind of offense. Only when you have a prolific point guard in the triangle like a Chris Paul, or a Deron Williams or a Steve Nash, who are your 10-11 assist guys, can you truly determine whether the triangle allows one to get those kinds of assist numbers.

Also note that Kobe's career high in assists in 6.0 per game in the 2004-05 season. What's notable about that statement is that this was the year Rudy Tomjanovich coached the Lakers, meaning there was no triangle offense being utilized. The reason why Jordan, Iverson, and Lebron were all able to score 30 and dish out 7-8 assists, is precisely because they were being utilized as the primary playmakers AND scorers. In other words, give them the ball and let them create for themselves or for others, depending on what the defense gave them. Hell, just thought of someone else, Dwyane Wade in 2008-09 averaged 30 and 7.5 assists. Again, he was used as both the primary scorer and play-maker. In all cases the players were in offenses that essentially gave them the ball and said 'go, create.' A specially talented scorer and passer, which all of those players I mentioned were/are, can be both a high scorer and amass high assist numbers in that kind of 'carte blanche' offense.

Once the triangle was run on the 90's Bulls, Jordan was in an offense that didn't place him as the primary ball-dominant playmaker, but instead placed him in various positions on the floor where he could be most effective offensively. In other words, he was placed in positions to utilize his abililties as a scorer, not a passer. And after a few seasons, Pippen established himself as a player which also ate into Jordan's assists totals. But you will note that Jordan averaged 8.0 assists the season before the triangle was instituted, in 1988-89, in which he was being used at point guard. The following season, his assist numbers dropped to 6.3, and then 5.5 the season after that. One reason why? The triangle had been fully instituted by that point. That Jordan's assists numbers dropped at that point is not, in my humble opinion, a coincidence.

For one thing, the triangle is actually designed moreso with a dominant center( or post player) in mind, which Tex Winters and Phil Jackson has gone on record. That's part of what made the early 2000 Lakers so dominant, the triangle is more designed to feature a Shaq moreso than a Jordan or a Kobe. Which is also part of why the triangle ultimately worked with the Bulls and the current Lakers, because Jordan( and now Kobe) were/are post threats.

Who takes 30 shots in the triange offense? Neither Shaq, Kobe, or Jordan has ever averaged that many shots. If any one player takes that many shots, it's not only a random occurrence, it's also because they broke the triangle. When you see Kobe going off for 40 points and taking high volumes of shots, it's moreso because Kobe broke the triangle as it may have not been effective that particular night. Or perhaps Kobe had a hot hand, and therefore the team milked his hand without being overly reliant on the triangle. When you have two of the greatest perimeter offensive threats in the history of the game in Jordan and Kobe( and the most physically dominant post presence since Wilt in prime Shaq), that is a luxury not many teams have. And there has not, to my knowledge, been a team that successfully employed the triangle that did not possess at least one dominant offensive threat i.e Jordan, Kobe, Shaq etc.

This is why the triangle isn't used by many teams. You have to have certain personnel to be able to use it effectively as the basis for your offensive gameplan. Not only that, but there's a reason why those role players were so effective on those Bulls teams, or the current Lakers. The triangle is very good at maximizing the abilities of marginally skilled players.

the theory to me is shot because if you can go for many shots you can also get assists numbers. If the reason for high shot volumes is breaking the triangle then kobe must do it all the time, he has avg 20 or more shots a game for a year in his careeer 10 times

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

the theory to me is shot because if you can go for many shots you can also get assists numbers. If the reason for high shot volumes is breaking the triangle then kobe must do it all the time, he has avg 20 or more shots a game for a year in his careeer 10 times

Except you don't have a single case to point to, where you can say "AHA, player X played in the triangle and averaged 9 assists!" So, at this point we're disagreeing for the sake of doing so. You claim my theory is shot, yet you can only base your opinion on rhetoric and not on the fact that no single player has ever amassed really high assists numbers in the triangle. I have past precedence on my side... you have....what exactly? Hell, Scottie Pippen was probably the best passing player to have played in the triangle, and in the season Jordan retired, he only averaged 5.6 assists per game. You're trying to tell me a player of Pippen's play-making ability wouldn't average 8 assists in a different offense where he had total ball control? Please.

And that's my main point. A traditional offense uses a point guard as the primary set-up guy. The triangle offense relies more on player/ball movement than one player standing at the top of the 3point line directing the offense. In the triangle offense, assists can come from anywhere on the floor and the assist opportunities are more likely to be spread around, instead of one guy averaging 10 assists a game. Of course, the triangle is designed for 'certain' players to touch the ball more ( Jordan, Kobe). That's just common sense that you will create an offense that puts the ball in the hands of your best player. And that will allow them to create for teammates when they aren't able to score themselves, though in reality Jordan and Kobe have few situations in which they aren't able to score themselves. Note that Kobe averages more assists at the shooting guard spot, than Derek Fisher who's the point guard. How many offenses you know of where the point guard doesn't lead the team in assists? I'm quite willing to admit I'm wrong when I see a player play in the triangle, and average high assists. And not be primary scorers, as Jordan and Kobe were. The triangle offense is simply not designed for one guy to be both primary scorer( 25-30 ppg) and primary setup( 7-8 assists or more) man. Wake me up when someone does that.

The triangle puts Jordan and Kobe in positions to score first, not pass for 10 assists every night. What are you saying, that the offense should be such that Kobe gets the same shots as, say, Derek Fisher? LOL. It's not an equal opportunity offense. Kobe gets 20 shots because the offense is designed for him to SHOOT the highest number of shots, and/or pass off depending on how he reads the defense. It's also a situation where if the defense is reading the triangle well and reacting to it, Kobe may have to isolate and go one on one. That will increase his shot attempts as well.

Are you saying the offense should be designed to make Kobe less of a scorer, and more of a passer? That solely depends on who he has on his team as secondary options. Right now, he has a team where he doesn't need to shoot 30 times a night. But, 5 years ago when he was playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker, are you suggesting that the offense should have been designed for Kobe to defer MORE to Smush Parker? Ummmmm..... ok. You may want to read Phil Jackson's book from a few years back, where he specifically talks about how Kobe didn't adapt to the triangle well at times, because he would want to do his own thing. Jordan was much the same way from the outset. It's only when it produced championship winning results, that both players embraced it, begrudgingly. Hell, a little known secret is that Pippen was actually better at the triangle than Jordan was. Which, ultimately, was why Pippen was used as the point forward. Not only did he understand it better from a technical standpoint, but taking the ball out of Jordan's hands as the primary ball-handler/ facilitator allowed him to conserve his energy more for scoring. ESPECIALLY when he got older.

Then again, I just noticed your signature about Kobe being the most overrated player in history. That makes trying to have an objective debate with you about anything involving him pretty much impossible. For the record, I'm not even a Kobe 'fan' per se, but I know when to give a player his due.

[ParisB]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

dragonyeuw knows what he's talking about, guys. It's so naive to simply put boxscores in spreadsheets and compare columns with Player A and Player B in trying to determine who the better player is. Basketball is much more complex than that, from a statistical standpoint and from a dynamic standpoint. That's why I laugh at some of the "arguments" some of you guys throw.

I think fantasy sports are kind of ruining the game, as many casual fans (and not students of the game) are getting involved and think players like David Lee are better than Tim Duncan, or Monte Ellis is better than Kobe, or that Lebron is the greatest player in the NBA today (lol) and all time (lol). It just doesn't work that way.

[Landlordos7]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

CARTE BLANCHE CARTE BLANCHE CARTE BLANCHE CARTE BLANCHE!!!!!

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

CARTE BLANCHE CARTE BLANCHE CARTE BLANCHE CARTE BLANCHE!!!!!

Carte blanche?

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

Except you don't have a single case to point to, where you can say "AHA, player X played in the triangle and averaged 9 assists!" So, at this point we're disagreeing for the sake of doing so. You claim my theory is shot, yet you can only base your opinion on rhetoric and not on the fact that no single player has ever amassed really high assists numbers in the triangle. I have past precedence on my side... you have....what exactly? Hell, Scottie Pippen was probably the best passing player to have played in the triangle, and in the season Jordan retired, he only averaged 5.6 assists per game. You're trying to tell me a player of Pippen's play-making ability wouldn't average 8 assists in a different offense where he had total ball control? Please.

The Triangle has never had a great point guard play in the system to my knowledge, Your theory to me sounds like your saying the triangle doesn't let a player average high assists number due to the way the offense was made. I can strongly disagree due to what I said before if a player can average 20 or more shots a game he can get high assists total. You need the ball in your hands to shoot, and I doubt every shot put up is a catch and shoot situation or fast break situation. Also seems to me that Pippen isn't the kind of player that can handle total ball control, He did average slightly more points playing with out jordan than playing with him, As well as lower assist totals.




And that's my main point. A traditional offense uses a point guard as the primary set-up guy. The triangle offense relies more on player/ball movement than one player standing at the top of the 3point line directing the offense. In the triangle offense, assists can come from anywhere on the floor and the assist opportunities are more likely to be spread around, instead of one guy averaging 10 assists a game. Of course, the triangle is designed for 'certain' players to touch the ball more ( Jordan, Kobe). That's just common sense that you will create an offense that puts the ball in the hands of your best player. And that will allow them to create for teammates when they aren't able to score themselves, though in reality Jordan and Kobe have few situations in which they aren't able to score themselves. Note that Kobe averages more assists at the shooting guard spot, than Derek Fisher who's the point guard. How many offenses you know of where the point guard doesn't lead the team in assists? I'm quite willing to admit I'm wrong when I see a player play in the triangle, and average high assists. And not be primary scorers, as Jordan and Kobe were. The triangle offense is simply not designed for one guy to be both primary scorer( 25-30 ppg) and primary setup( 7-8 assists or more) man. Wake me up when someone does that.


Lebron Average way more than assists then Mo Williams last year.

The triangle puts Jordan and Kobe in positions to score first, not pass for 10 assists every night. What are you saying, that the offense should be such that Kobe gets the same shots as, say, Derek Fisher? LOL. It's not an equal opportunity offense. Kobe gets 20 shots because the offense is designed for him to SHOOT the highest number of shots, and/or pass off depending on how he reads the defense. It's also a situation where if the defense is reading the triangle well and reacting to it, Kobe may have to isolate and go one on one. That will increase his shot attempts as well.


Also due to Kobe having a loaded team he could get easy assists with Gasol, Odom, Fisher and even artest. Kobe's problem is even if the defense loads on him he will usually take a bad shot, most of the time missing it.

Are you saying the offense should be designed to make Kobe less of a scorer, and more of a passer? That solely depends on who he has on his team as secondary options. Right now, he has a team where he doesn't need to shoot 30 times a night. But, 5 years ago when he was playing with Kwame Brown and Smush Parker, are you suggesting that the offense should have been designed for Kobe to defer MORE to Smush Parker? Ummmmm..... ok. You may want to read Phil Jackson's book from a few years back, where he specifically talks about how Kobe didn't adapt to the triangle well at times, because he would want to do his own thing. Jordan was much the same way from the outset. It's only when it produced championship winning results, that both players embraced it, begrudgingly. Hell, a little known secret is that Pippen was actually better at the triangle than Jordan was. Which, ultimately, was why Pippen was used as the point forward. Not only did he understand it better from a technical standpoint, but taking the ball out of Jordan's hands as the primary ball-handler/ facilitator allowed him to conserve his energy more for scoring. ESPECIALLY when he got older.

What im saying is that Kobe had the ability to make others better by the amount of defenders that latch on to him on a game by game basis due to the fact that there aren't many defenders who can guard him with out help.

Then again, I just noticed your signature about Kobe being the most overrated player in history. That makes trying to have an objective debate with you about anything involving him pretty much impossible. For the record, I'm not even a Kobe 'fan' per se, but I know when to give a player his due.

Kobe is a great player, an All Time great. Me calling him overrated has to due with him getting many first team defense award with out being a top defender anymore.

response in bold italics

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

The Triangle has never had a great point guard play in the system to my knowledge, Your theory to me sounds like your saying the triangle doesn't let a player average high assists number due to the way the offense was made.

No, the triangle has never had a great point guard in the traditional sense, but there have been great playmakers. Jordan, Pippen, Kobe are all great playmakers in their own right, and with the triangle not designed with a traditional point guard in mind, that's not a huge issue. The triangle doesn't 'need' a point guard like a Steve Nash to be effective. Regarding my theory, I've already stated repeatedly and won't be anymore after this because we're going in circles, the triangle isn't a traditional offense in the sense where a traditional point guard is going to be in control all the time. Because of that, the ability of the point guard to amass 10-11 assists per game isn't there. It's the nature of the offense. We'll agree to disagree on that, because I'm getting tired of repeating myself, and you're merely regurgitating the same response over and over.



I can strongly disagree due to what I said before if a player can average 20 or more shots a game he can get high assists total.

This is flawed thinking. For the teams who have utilized the triangle to great effect, the best player happened to be the league's best scorer as well. Let's think logically for a second: why would you have Jordan or Kobe be passers as opposed to scorers, which is their specialty? All of those teams needed those guys scoring ability, not their passing ability, to be champions. Jordan and Kobe taking 20 shots a game is a combination of the triangle setting them up to take those shots, as well as isolation plays designed to take advantage of each player's scoring ability. This is the point that you continuously miss. Jordan and Kobe are primary scorers. You don't want them passing for 10 assists a game. You want them to take high volumes of shots, because they are unstoppable scorers. Your gameplan should be to put your best players into positions where they can utilize their talents. Once again, Jordan has averaged 8 assists before he played in the triangle. He also scored 32 a game. In that scenario, he was playing in an offense where he was the primary setup man, and that was reflected in his assist total.



Also seems to me that Pippen isn't the kind of player that can handle total ball control, He did average slightly more points playing with out jordan than playing with him, As well as lower assist totals.

Pippen wasn't a natural scorer. He has the talent to score, but he didn't have the scorer's mentality. To say he can't handle total ball control is off the charts false though, he was a great ballhandler and playmaker. Anyone who watched the majority of his career in great detail, as I have, would chuckle at the notion that he can't handle total ball control.


Kobe's problem is even if the defense loads on him he will usually take a bad shot, most of the time missing it.

This is one area where Jordan was better. Jordan took smarter shots, and had a higher basketball IQ than Kobe does. Jordan found a balance between being a dominant scorer and deferring to his teammates. Part of it was because players like Pippen and Grant developed alongside him. Part of it was the nature of the triangle provided opportunities for players on occasion which didn't require them to wait for Jordan to feel like passing them the ball. That's why many role players like John Paxson and Steve Kerr became household names. The triangle provided opportunities for average players to be most effective. Kobe still struggles to find that delicate balance, though he's become better at it the past 3 years.



Lebron Average way more than assists then Mo Williams last year.

Yes, because Lebron James is a better playmaker than Mo Williams, and the Cav offense was designed for Lebron to have total ball control, and be both facilitator and scorer. While Mo Williams lined up at the point guard spot, for all purposes he mainly played off Lebron, waiting for Lebron to pass to him out of double teams for catch and shoot opportunities. Lebron was essentially the team's point guard in terms of him setting up the offense and creating for everyone else. You bringing this point up only confirms what I said before, not counters any point I made. Lebron controlled the ball.

response in bold italics

response in red italics

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

response in red italics

My Point is essentially this. You say that it's hard to get high assist totals due to the triangle, Which to me is a cover up for kobe who just doesn't have the ability to do so, clearly if the triangle can be modify to give a player total ball control which kobe has he could see what the defense brings him and decide rather to pass or shoot. Lebron who had total ball control last year managed to not only average near 30 points more than kobe, he also managed to get nearly 9 assists per game which is way more than kobe as well. Kobe gets as many possessions as anyone in the league. Point is Triangle has never had the play maker personnel to get the numbers I've stated. I've also seen pippen play, for most of his career except the years he played under doug collins. If Pippen were going to average 8-9 assists he would of done so, Hypotheticals don't work for him...

[King_B_Mack]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: "I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard"

My Point is essentially this. You say that it's hard to get high assist totals due to the triangle, Which to me is a cover up for kobe who just doesn't have the ability to do so, clearly if the triangle can be modify to give a player total ball control which kobe has he could see what the defense brings him and decide rather to pass or shoot. Lebron who had total ball control last year managed to not only average near 30 points more than kobe, he also managed to get nearly 9 assists per game which is way more than kobe as well. Kobe gets as many possessions as anyone in the league. Point is Triangle has never had the play maker personnel to get the numbers I've stated. I've also seen pippen play, for most of his career except the years he played under doug collins. If Pippen were going to average 8-9 assists he would of done so, Hypotheticals don't work for him...

I think your Kobe hate is making you miss the point of what's being said. The triangle isn't modified to give a player total ball control. If someone has total ball control then they have effectively stopped running the triangle at that particular moment not modified it. The triangle is the same as it's always been and it doesn't change for whoever is in it. How much of the time they run it may change, but not anything about the offense.

Maybe guys should give this a read.

http://emuss.blogspot.com/2008/12/triangle-offense.html

"The offense, orchestrated by [Phil] Jackson and longtime assistant coach Tex Winter, is not an illusion. When executed properly, three players form a triangle on the strong side of the court. Jackson's triangle... is unpredictable because it is based on constant movement and then reading the defense... The Lakers run it between 70 and 75 percent of the time when they're not fastbreaking."

As described in the article, "the beauty is that any player can be at any point of any triangle. Players, roles and positions on the court are interchangeable. The point guard doesn't have to initiate the play or penetration. Jackson's goal is to space the court (he prefers players 18 to 20 feet apart) to maximize individual matchups. When the defense adjusts, that creates other openings."

According to Pacers coach Jim O'Brien, whose team plays the Lakers tonight:

"It's just different triangles that in a natural setup has a wing, corner, post triangle. It's kind of an overload situation. It's a perfectly spaced offense where you cannot get your normal weak-side defense loaded up on guarding or helping. When I think of triangle offense, they always have people perfectly spaced. To me, it seems that with that spacing you can always draw some triangles if you stop anybody at the same time."

According to one Pacers player, defending the Triangle is difficult because "it really keeps you honest. It doesn't allow you to gamble because they have a lot of backdoor options. That makes you stay honest in the passing lane, which means you can't really disrupt their offense a whole lot."

To run the Triangle, "it takes players who have multidimensional games. They have to be good passers, shooters, drivers and be able to move well without the ball. The Lakers currently have that with Bryant, Gasol and Lamar Odom."

Says Coach O'Brien:

"Phil and Tex have been running that offense no matter who they've had. Whether it was Shaq and Kobe or Jordan and Pippen, they just run it. It's a good offense no matter who is on the court for you. When they go to the bench, the Lakers are very efficient offensively when you have Kobe or Gasol in the game. They don't seem to miss many strides from their execution of their triangle offense. It's a great offense from spacing and from movement standpoint."

Posted by Eric Musselman at <A class=timestamp-link title="permanent link" href="http://emuss.blogspot.com/2008/12/triangle-offense.html" rel=bookmark><ABBR class=published title=2008-12-02T05:35:00-08:00>5:35 AM</ABBR>

[Landlordos7]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: &quot;I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard&quot;

Why are you guys looking at this as two absolute and opposite realities?


Why can't be a combination of the two....the triangle is predicated on equal distribution of the ball, with no one player generally having the opportunity to amass huge assist or other statistical numbers. Furthermore, Kobe is possibly the 2nd greatest scorer of all time, and and breaks triangle often enough, but even when he doesn't has a score 1st pass 2nd mentality.

There's a lot more that goes into real life scenarios than just option A or option B.

[Kashanova]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: &quot;I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard&quot;

I think your Kobe hate is making you miss the point of what's being said. The triangle isn't modified to give a player total ball control. If someone has total ball control then they have effectively stopped running the triangle at that particular moment not modified it. The triangle is the same as it's always been and it doesn't change for whoever is in it. How much of the time they run it may change, but not anything about the offense.

Maybe guys should give this a read.

http://emuss.blogspot.com/2008/12/triangle-offense.html

so I guess the triangle is broken often in LA

[Landlordos7]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: &quot;I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard&quot;

so I guess the triangle is broken often in LA

Of course it is. Obvious statement is obvious.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: MJ on Kobe Bryant: &quot;I'd Say He's A Top 10 Guard&quot;

My Point is essentially this. You say that it's hard to get high assist totals due to the triangle, Which to me is a cover up for kobe who just doesn't have the ability to do so, clearly if the triangle can be modify to give a player total ball control which kobe has he could see what the defense brings him and decide rather to pass or shoot. Lebron who had total ball control last year managed to not only average near 30 points more than kobe, he also managed to get nearly 9 assists per game which is way more than kobe as well. Kobe gets as many possessions as anyone in the league. Point is Triangle has never had the play maker personnel to get the numbers I've stated. I've also seen pippen play, for most of his career except the years he played under doug collins. If Pippen were going to average 8-9 assists he would of done so, Hypotheticals don't work for him...

Pippen averaged 7 assists per game in the triangle in 1991-92. Given a offense where he has more freedom to create for his teammates, you can extrapolate that he'd get more assists than 7. Anyways, I can tell from our conversation that you won't understand that point.

Anyways, not interested anymore in debating with you after this. Your line of thinking is too linear on this issue to really understand what's being said. What you fail to realize in your Lebron-Kobe comparison is not only does Lebron have the offense running completely through him, he's basically the only player on the Cavs who was essentially capable of making plays for others. Mo Williams isn't a traditional point guard, more of a shooting guard in a point guard's body. And he is an average playmaker at best when it comes to setting the table for others. One of Lebron's strengths is passing, in fact his passing was more highly regarded than anything else coming out of high school, hence the Magic Johnson comparisons. So the Cavs offense was tailored to essentially give him the ball, and have full control of running all the plays. It's pretty easy to imagine him getting 8-9 assists a game in that situation.

By comparison, let's look at the triangle. Pau Gasol gets about 4 assists in the triangle. Kobe gets about 5. Odom gets about 3. Fisher gets 3. The triangle is designed to spread assists around based on the kind of offense it is, not have all the assists come from one person dominating the ball. It's also the kind of offense that needs certain personnel to run it effectively as I said earlier, essentially multi-dimensional players. Despite the clear evidence, I know you won't accept that because you wish to hold onto your own views, which is your prerogative, but this is the last time I'll be engaging you on this.

I think your Kobe hate is making you miss the point of what's being said. The triangle isn't modified to give a player total ball control. If someone has total ball control then they have effectively stopped running the triangle at that particular moment not modified it. The triangle is the same as it's always been and it doesn't change for whoever is in it. How much of the time they run it may change, but not anything about the offense.

Maybe guys should give this a read.

http://emuss.blogspot.com/2008/12/triangle-offense.html

That was a good read. Despite that, Kashanova will refuse to accept it and hold onto his ideals about the triangle offense. Oh well.....