If There Was No Michael Jordan

[travis72]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

If it was not for Jordan my Pacers would have probably got a ring. I think Jordan is the GOAT by his ability to will his teams to victory which very few basketball players have the ability to do. Larry and Magic had that will in them but they also had luxury to play with some of the best players in the game while Jordan did not. Now Jordan was blessed to have a great coaching staff and good role players but not the greats that Larry and magic had. Yes he had Pippen that was able to take over a game but Pippen noway comes close to what the other guys had around them.
I would say Kobe is the greatest of his era but not even close to the same level as Jordan. Also if you really like basketball you should look into getting some old video's of the NBA's past. There could be a argument made that Oscar Robertson is the greatest overall player to ever play the game.

[threes_co]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

I didn't know how to start this thread but whatever, I'm only 20 years old, so I wasn't really able to see Michael Jordan in his prime, so IMO Jordan is not 'the greatest player I'VE EVER SEEN.' That would be Kobe and I know alot of people would just say go to YouTube and stuff, but I anybody can put together a 10 minute highlight reel and make Tracy McGrady look like he is the best player of his era.

Look I know Jordan was amazing but I wasn't able to see him, not saying he's not the greatest player ever in the NBA but not the greatest player I've seen and with that being said,

Seeing how many people keep saying Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan we'll see, if there was no Jordan, if he didn't exist or if his stats were those of like a Byron Scott's career, would Kobe Bryant be the greatest NBA player had he won the title this year? I'm a firm believer that there will never ever ever be another Michael Jordan, but as well as there will never ber another Kobe Bryant.

But seriously, this question is bugging me and I wanted to know what other people would think, some who have seen back in the day ball, blah blah blah and stuff, people who know basketball.

LOL calm down. Are you serious? Give it about 30 years and people will say the same about the next generation's top player.

[atlwarya]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

dking_11 if it werent for Jordan I wouldve never gotten into the sport.
Jordan's ability to break down defenses was amazing. And im not talking about any defense. Im talking about 90s era defense. When there was no such rule as hand checking. Michael Jordan is GOAT hands down. I know you said that you dont watch youtube videos but this video will show just how valuable he was and how difficult it was to be where he's at right now. Im 20 yrs old too and i even know how great Jordan was. The only athlete that i can say is almost amazing as Jordan is LeBron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

[Bumi]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

When you think of breakfast, you think of bacon and eggs. When you think of Christmas, you think of Santa Claus. Thanksgiving? A turkey. When you think of Basketball, you think of Jordan.

It's hard for me to express in words just how great Michael was. How integral he was to not only the NBA, but to the game of basketball. In fact, if I began, I'd carry on log enough to fill a library, so I'll attempt to be short. Simply, If there were no Jordan, there'd be no Kobe.(Jordan was far and away a better player than Kobe, but we'll leave that alone for another time)

Music just made sense to Bach. To Beethoven. Words fell on paper like rain on the pavement for Faulkner and Shakespeare. Michelangelo, with a brush, stroked his dreams into reality. Take the above from their respective passions; Music, literature, and art. Where would those arts be? Where would we be? That, would be basketball, without Jordan.

[instant000]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Kobe isn't the second greatest player of all time, which is the short answer to your question.

However, the rest of the answer is a little more complex than it seems. Besides athleticism, big hands and a more natural knack for team leadership, the biggest difference between Kobe and Michael is that Kobe came after Michael. Mike was the first time people saw a shooting guard doing the things that he was doing. I'm not going to list them all, but suffice to say that 6'6 guards were not dribbling like PGs, changing direction, pulling up, posting up, fading away and dunking on your big man on route to Wilt-like scoring performances on a regular basis.

Had Kobe been Kobe WITHOUT the benefit of seeing Michael first, not only would fan reaction to him have been different, but coaches would not have been able to game plan against him until the next guy came along.

But that's impossible, because Kobe studied everything from MJ's moves to his speech patterns to carve himself into the second best SG of all time and a top ten great.

Kareem
Wilt
Larry
Magic

Four guys that I don't believe Kobe has surpassed. Not saying he's better, or worse, but that these are all the "after Michael" guys. I recently read someone put it very well:

"All time first NBA team, no one with a brain is going to argue that your first team backcourt is definitely Magic and Michael, but your second team backcourt is Kobe and Oscar."

I'd say that about sums it up.

That's what I was going to say ...

[MarvellousOne]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

If there was no Jordan...hmmm....hard decision right here....I would say Magic or Bird, but i don't remember them all that much when they where playing in there prime since I was like 3 lol So from the 90s and up I would say probably Hakeem Olajuwon would be the best I have seen and remember outside of MJ and it would be a close decision since there was so many great players during those times

[Dewie12]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

There is what I would call the Santaficlassification of Jordan. Just like there was with Bird and Magic.

Frankly Jordan was a great talent, who hogged the ball, would rather try to win a game by himself than to pass to anyone. Off the court he was a gambler, moody, ridiculed teammates and fans, took no stance on any issue, created a cookie cutter Tiger Woods like image.

Then he changed. He became a winner who trusted his teammates. Accepted the triangle offense. Became the greatest player at picking and choosing his spots when a team needed him to do his thing, and he delivered more than any other player in history when he needed to.

Jordan has a strange legacy for me. He played against the easiest, most diluted product the NBA has seen (mid 90's until the early 00's), never had a real rival. He only won with one coach, who has gone on to replicate his success with two different type of Laker teams.

I am amazed at how Jordan both personified the NBA I grew up with and its criticisms. Too selfish, all about the flash and not the substance. But somehow he has transcended the typical NBA trappings and has universal acceptance as the greatest ever.

To the original question. Kobe looks more and more like Jordan later in his career. A lot has to do with the coaching. Where he gets his shots, how his teammates play off of him. That is Phil Jackson and a great system that utilized the talents of these past their prime superstars.

Jordan in the 80's was pure mythology. You have to see some of the things he did. What Jordan became in the 90's is a different thing. What he did in the 00's with Washington personified his ego and off the court troubles.

Complexing cat, on and off the court. But the NBA was in a bad place during those late 90's w/out Jordan the whole thing may have fallen apart.

[dragonyeuw]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Kobe Bryant would be a totally different player had there not been a Jordan. His game at this stage is so eerily reminiscent of 2nd three-peat Jordan. In fact, as much as they've been compared, I think current Kobe is much closer in game style to 2nd three-peat Jordan, than young Kobe( let's say 2000-2008) was to the young Jordan( 1984-1993).

Kobe would have been a great player no matter what. But what would his game look like without Jordan? Totally different. Question is, who would he have modeled it after? As much as people say Jordan was an evolution of Dr.J, frankly beyond the high flying dunks Doc's game in no way resembled the player that Jordan would become. So I'm not even sure who Jordan patterned his game after, if anyone. He was truly an innovator.

[Taur3asi3]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Jordan patterned his game after David Thompson.

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

pete vecsey once told dr. j about how good jordan was going to be, which dr. j bristled at. peter then said, "julius, you don't understand. he's you WITH a jump shot."

[Rocky]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Kobe isn't the second greatest player of all time, which is the short answer to your question.

However, the rest of the answer is a little more complex than it seems. Besides athleticism, big hands and a more natural knack for team leadership, the biggest difference between Kobe and Michael is that Kobe came after Michael. Mike was the first time people saw a shooting guard doing the things that he was doing. I'm not going to list them all, but suffice to say that 6'6 guards were not dribbling like PGs, changing direction, pulling up, posting up, fading away and dunking on your big man on route to Wilt-like scoring performances on a regular basis.
Had Kobe been Kobe WITHOUT the benefit of seeing Michael first, not only would fan reaction to him have been different, but coaches would not have been able to game plan against him until the next guy came along.

But that's impossible, because Kobe studied everything from MJ's moves to his speech patterns to carve himself into the second best SG of all time and a top ten great.

Kareem
Wilt
Larry
Magic

Four guys that I don't believe Kobe has surpassed. Not saying he's better, or worse, but that these are all the "after Michael" guys. I recently read someone put it very well:

"All time first NBA team, no one with a brain is going to argue that your first team backcourt is definitely Magic and Michael, but your second team backcourt is Kobe and Oscar."

I'd say that about sums it up.

Gonna have to disagree there. Jerry West, Adrian Dantley, David Thompson, and some others were doing the things that Jordan did before Jordan came into the league. What made Jordan different was that he won six championships playing that way.

Also, Tim Duncan is the greatest player of his era and I think Shaq and Kobe are after him.

[The15thunter]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

Gonna have to disagree there. Jerry West, Adrian Dantley, David Thompson, and some others were doing the things that Jordan did before Jordan came into the league. What made Jordan different was that he won six championships playing that way.

Also, Tim Duncan is the greatest player of his era and I think Shaq and Kobe are after him.

jordan also broke the rule that a dominant scoring guard could win a championship, as well as doing it without a relevant big man. essentially, we herald him as the greatest because he broke all of the rules of championship-winning nba basketball, and changed how we perceive everything after him because of that.

tim duncan is the best player of his era, but there is a huge bias in basketball where big men are almost never considered the best players overall, since their style of play is less dynamic and awe-inspiring when compared to guards.

this is why, even in this thread, people are saying magic or bird would be the best ever if not for jordan, bypassing the fact that kareem and bill russell were better than they were.

[bobie4]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

kareem! 6 mvps nd 6 rings! not to mention hes the nba's all time leading scorer!

[CWSapp757]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

If there was no michael jordan, there would definitely be a lot less 100+ dollar shoe purchases.

[Sportsforever]

Re: If There Was No Michael Jordan

The thing that sets Jordan apart from every one else imo is his ability to elevate his game when everyone else was running on empty. I remember in the late 1980's Isaiah Thomas saying that he hated playing Jordan because Jordan was like everyone else for 45 minutes, and then in the last 3 minutes while you were gassed and tired he found another gear and beat you.

Kobe is more physically gifted, probably a better pure scorer, etc, but I have never seen an athlete, let alone a basketball player, who elevated his game when it counted like Jordan did. The closest I've seen is Tiger Woods on the golf course.

Bottom line, if given the choice between the two I'd take Jordan every day of the week and twice on Sundays.