2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

That's just another way of shrugging off a possibly (and seeing as though some agree with the Rose assessment, probably) debatable opinion.

You didn't refute it. You said something to the tune of "I don't like to use the h-word, but that's borderline homerism".

How would you respond if to everything you said I came back with " ex is at it again." Or "ex is such a damn _____ homer" and offering nothing else. Even "ex is a sheep to all the hype!".

Is that a fair response to your opinion?

Those two responses are nowhere near similar. My homer statement wasn't at all meant to be offensive, notice how I worded it.

I don't think anyone took it the wrong way except for you.

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I hear what you're saying, but....

Mercedes makes elite quality cars. They're a notch below Ferrari's.

Louisville is an elite basketball program. They're a notch below Duke.

And personally, if you're a top 10 NBA talent, I feel is if you're an elite basketball player. But that doesn't necessarily mean #10 is equivalent to #1.

Well then that's just misuse of the word, and that throws me off.

I'd say the Lakers and Celtics are the only historically elite basketball teams because they're a step above the rest and are, in my opinion, interchangeable.

Those two responses are nowhere near similar. My homer statement wasn't at all meant to be offensive, notice how I worded it.

I don't think anyone took it the wrong way except for you.

They are similar, because they do the exact same thing. Downplay another's opinion because of something, whether it be homerism (which is ridiculous because you still haven't revealed the homer), hype, or just plain humor (like you've done time and time again with me and many many others).

Are you going to laugh at this post too?

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Well then that's just misuse of the word, and that throws me off.

I'd say the Lakers and Celtics are the only historically elite basketball teams because they're a step above the rest and are, in my opinion, interchangeable.

It's not a misuse of the word at all. You can be elite, yet still be eclipsed by another. If you disagree, that's fine. But you'd be arguing that players like LeBron James aren't elite, because there's players out there like Jordan who were better.

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

It's not a misuse of the word at all. You can be elite, yet still be eclipsed by another. If you disagree, that's fine. But you'd be arguing that players like LeBron James aren't elite, because there's players out there like Jordan who were better.

No no no no no

Elite means the top of a group. You can say Rose is an elite PG along with CP3 without them needing to be as good as Magic Johnson.

It's just relative to the group you speak of. In this case, it's active-NBA players.

This isn't really the point anyway. It's more so the disrespect and condescension. That's what I don't like.



Back to Westbrook/Rose, I don't think they're extremely close but Westbrook is one lazy-Rose offseason from being just as good.

I still think Rose is a better overall shooter, playmaker (just slightly), and just slightly better defensively.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

No no no no no

Elite means the top of a group. You can say Rose is an elite PG along with CP3 without them needing to be as good as Magic Johnson.

It's just relative to the group you speak of. In this case, it's active-NBA players.

This isn't really the point anyway. It's more so the disrespect and condescension. That's what I don't like.



Back to Westbrook/Rose, I don't think they're extremely close but Westbrook is one lazy-Rose offseason from being just as good.

I still think Rose is a better overall shooter, playmaker (just slightly), and just slightly better defensively.

Where is the better shooter and defender coming from?

And if they aren't extremely close, what are they?

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Where is the better shooter and defender coming from?

And if they aren't extremely close, what are they?

Just close. In the same way that LeBron and Carmelo are close. The difference being Carmelo really has no chance to catch LeBron like Westbrook does Rose.

The shooter comes from statistics and watching the games. The defense mostly from watching the games. Rose appears to be a better on-ball defender to me. He allows less penetration for opposing PGs to score and create. That's the most important defensive skill for a PG, to me.

Westbrook does cause more turnovers though.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Too much condescending bull**** in this forum.

Next instance I see will be dealt with.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Getting all bent out of shape because I said 'there have been times this year where Bulls fans have been a bit homerish concerning Rose'.

I don't see how that statement caused such a reaction, but so be it.

Russell Westbrook is a much better defender than Rose is. That was his calling card coming into the league and he hasn't disappointed.

Rose has him beat I believe in the halfcourt sets. He just seems to be in total control of the offense at all times. That may be more due to the fact that the offense runs through Durant so much, so Westbrook doesn't have the opportunity to showcase as much, but I have to believe Rose is still ahead of him in that regard.

Statistically it would be interesting to see how the stack up in terms of shooting. Just seems like it's a really close call. Westbrook definitely has the setup dribble to jumper down pretty nicely from midrange. Rose has definitely improved a ton himself.

In the open court/transition it's dead even.

Overall it's a very close race, but Rose has solidified himself as a top 3 PG no doubt if not #1 overall.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Just close. In the same way that LeBron and Carmelo are close. The difference being Carmelo really has no chance to catch LeBron like Westbrook does Rose.

The gap is that wide, really? I disagree.

The shooter comes from statistics and watching the games. The defense mostly from watching the games. Rose appears to be a better on-ball defender to me. He allows less penetration for opposing PGs to score and create. That's the most important defensive skill for a PG, to me.

Westbrook does cause more turnovers though.

Their shooting percentages are virtually identical. They both shoot 44% from the field, and they're both at 33% from deep. Their free throw percentages are within a percentile of one another. And I've watched both of them play as well. Neither shoots any better than the other. The only difference between them statistically, is the 4 more ppg that Rose averages than Westbrook. But, he averages 3 more mpg, and is his teams first option.

Defensively, I'm giving the nod to Westbrook.

Rose, at this point, is better. He's more composed, has a better handle on the ball, and he closes better. But the difference between the two is miniscule.

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Russell Westbrook is a much better defender than Rose is. That was his calling card coming into the league and he hasn't disappointed.

I agree with that post except for this.

This year Rose has had a lower opposing PG production rating than Westbrook. I think that says a lot about overall defense.

Rose didn't fully apply his physical talents to defense when he first stepped into the league, but much like LeBron under Mike Brown, Rose has improved a ton defensively under Thibs. Rose doesn't get many flashy steals, but he also doesn't get himself out of position a ton and does a great job staying in front of his man, like a point guard should.

Westbrook is a good defender, don't get me wrong, but I think Rose is marginally better.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Yeah there are actually a lot of different scenarios to prove your merit defensively.

I guess I was more speaking on 'game on the line, man on man, no help, get a stop' scenario.

Thibbs has turned that team into a great defensive unit. They are stout.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I agree with that post except for this.

This year Rose has had a lower opposing PG production rating than Westbrook. I think that says a lot about overall defense.

Rose didn't fully apply his physical talents to defense when he first stepped into the league, but much like LeBron under Mike Brown, Rose has improved a ton defensively under Thibs. Rose doesn't get many flashy steals, but he also doesn't get himself out of position a ton and does a great job staying in front of his man, like a point guard should.

Westbrook is a good defender, don't get me wrong, but I think Rose is marginally better.

Perhaps that has something to do with the Bulls having an overall better defense than the Thunder?

[BNA95]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Everyone saying that Rose, Dwigt, or LeBron deserve to be MVP are full of Bull****. It is obvious that The MVP will be Joel Anthony!!!.... LOL!

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Perhaps that has something to do with the Bulls having an overall better defense than the Thunder?

Perhaps. But combining the statistics with watching the games, Rose doesn't get beat often. That's how I came to my conclusion.

Most of the opponents' production against the Bulls is actually by the opposing teams' big men. Surprising but that's what the stats say.

And even if Rose's opponent's production is lower because he's on a strong defensive unit, you have to remember that Rose is a part of that unit. And the guys Rose would usually help with on defense, the wings (SG and SF), have even lower opponents' production numbers. That may be a solid indicator that Rose is a decent help defender too if you want to say the Bulls' defense is heavily reliant upon rotations and help defense.

Pretty fascinating stuff IMO.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Perhaps. But combining the statistics with watching the games, Rose doesn't get beat often. That's how I came to my conclusion.

Most of the opponents' production against the Bulls is actually by the opposing teams' big men. Surprising but that's what the stats say.

And even if Rose's opponent's production is lower because he's on a strong defensive unit, you have to remember that Rose is a part of that unit. And the guys Rose would usually help with on defense, the wings (SG and SF), have even lower opponents' production numbers. That may be a solid indicator that Rose is a decent help defender too if you want to say the Bulls' defense is heavily reliant upon rotations and help defense.

Pretty fascinating stuff IMO.

Fair enough. I'm still giving the nod to Westbrook on the defensive end. Especially in terms of activity. He finished with about 70 more steals than Rose.