2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

As far as this year goes Rose was the better defender. OKC got a lot of love last year for their defensive improvement and this year they took a step back not only as a team but as individuals. From watching both of them play alot this year Rose was the better defender and the stats clearly back that up. Rose had the better defensive rating, more defensive win shares, and his oppenents production was lower than Westbrook's opponents.

As far as shooting goes yes there is no question that Rose is the better jumpshooter. I give Westbrook credit for improving his jumper as well but Rose improved his more. Not to mention that Rose has had the higher percentages from midrange the past two years. Yes their 3 point percentages this year are close but Westbrook doesn't take alot of threes at all and that still is considered a weakness of his. He only made 12 more threes than the previous season. Rose on the other made over 100 more than he did the previous season.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

As far as this year goes Rose was the better defender. OKC got a lot of love last year for their defensive improvement and this year they took a step back not only as a team but as individuals. From watching both of them play alot this year Rose was the better defender and the stats clearly back that up. Rose had the better defensive rating, more defensive win shares, and his oppenents production was lower than Westbrook's opponents.

As far as shooting goes yes there is no question that Rose is the better jumpshooter. I give Westbrook credit for improving his jumper as well but Rose improved his more. Not to mention that Rose has had the higher percentages from midrange the past two years. Yes their 3 point percentages this year are close but Westbrook doesn't take alot of threes at all and that still is considered a weakness of his. He only made 12 more threes than the previous season. Rose on the other made over 100 more than he did the previous season.

Not making the argument that Rose isn't a better shooter, but 3 point shooting is most definitely his weakness still.

Also, just looked it up on 82games.com... I don't know what factors into it, but Westbrook is given a higher passer rating than Rose.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10OKC3.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/10CHI3.HTM

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Not making the argument that Rose isn't a better shooter, but 3 point shooting is most definitely his weakness still.

Also, just looked it up on 82games.com... I don't know what factors into it, but Westbrook is given a higher passer rating than Rose.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10OKC3.HTM

http://www.82games.com/1011/10CHI3.HTM

Yeah I'm not saying it's a strength of his yet or is a knock down 3 point shooter but he has improved it greatly to the point where you can't back off him and dare him to shot it. You have to respect his 3 point shot now. Westbrook's hasn't got to that point yet and you still see teams sagging off him alot in the half court sets.

I don't have the exact equation but their passer rating comes from a combo of assists, bad passes, and passing turnovers. Rose had more passing turnovers and less assists than Westbrook. 82games one of the only sites they break what kind of turnovers the players have. Most sites just give you the total turnovers.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Wait... Rose is a the better defender than Russell Westbrook?

I don't agree with that statement.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Wait... Rose is a the better defender than Russell Westbrook?

I don't agree with that statement.

And a better shooter, despite the fact that their percentages are identical.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Russell Westbrook is flat out a 10 times better defender than Derrick Rose is. I'm sorry... Put him in Thibs defense. And he would be in the top 3 in steals every year. And don't give me that solid man to man player stuff you guys run on me with Deron Williams and CP3. Westbrook has the better on-ball defense than Derrick Rose.

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

And a better shooter, despite the fact that their percentages are identical.

I have already explained this once so I'm not typing all that again. So are we are going exclusively by just the percentages huh?? Well let me ask you this them LeBron has a higher FG percentage and three point percentage than Kobe over the past two years. Would you say LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe??

Or how bout this one. Grant Hill's 3 point percentage this year is the same as Steve Nash's and was better than Nash's last year. Would you dare say Grant Hill is as good of a 3 point shooter as Steve Nash??

[Po Pimp]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I have already explained this once so I'm not typing all that again. So are we are going exclusively by just the percentages huh?? Well let me ask you this them LeBron has a higher FG percentage and three point percentage than Kobe over the past two years. Would you say LeBron is a better shooter than Kobe??

Or how bout this one. Grant Hill's 3 point percentage this year is the same as Steve Nash's and was better than Nash's last year. Would you dare say Grant Hill is as good of a 3 point shooter as Steve Nash??

I'm telling you...these stat guys come in here and rely on that rather than actually watching the games. Also, I DO believe Westbrook is a better defender than Rose, but to say he would average more steals than Rose in this defense is making assumptions. LeBron at one point was 2nd in the NBA in steals (I believe in his 2nd season), but no one would say he was a better defender back then. The Bulls defense is not predicated on forcing turnovers, but holding the team to one possession. A couple of years ago, the Nuggets led the NBA in forcing turnovers, but no one thought of them as the best defense, so you can't put too much stock in steals.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I wasn't putting my stock into steals. I just know Westbrook is just that much of a better defender than Rose. That he would get even more steals then he already does. Just his awareness alone on defense is better than Rose at this point.

edit: I don't like the comment about not watching games thing. I feel that's not needed. Especially for the amount of games I watch. So lets not go down that road.

[Pared]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I'm telling you...these stat guys come in here and rely on that rather than actually watching the games.

I'd agree with jeebs as well. I wouldn't say extremely better but to me Westbrook is more active defensively.

I'm not a stat guy but I guess I don't watch games either. Blanket statements FTW?

[TMagic]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

And also to be fair to Westbrook and his defensive stats compared to Rose...

Westbrook may have it a little bit tougher in the West...With 3-4 games of...

Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Jason Kidd/Jason Terry/Juan Barea
Ty Lawson/Raymond Felton/Billups
Monta Ellis/Steph Curry
Steve Nash
Andre Miller

So that has to factored into that equation as well. I would think...

[Pared]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Yup. Great point T.

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I don't have a problem if someone says Westbrook is better or more active on that end but watching them this year I just don't see how anybody could say he is leaps and bounds better defender or 10 times better defender than Rose. That is making it seem like you are putting Westbrook on an All NBA defensive level which he isn't. Rose has done a damn good job defensively this year and the numbers back that up. I'm not trying to put him on the all defensive team or anything like that but he isn't some sub par defender like some are trying to make him out to be.

If you said Westbrook was leaps and bounds better or 10 times better on defense than Nash or Calderon cool but there is no way anybody can watch these two teams this year and say he is on a whole different level defensively than Rose.

[PrettyT11]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

And also to be fair to Westbrook and his defensive stats compared to Rose...

Westbrook may have it a little bit tougher in the West...With 3-4 games of...

Tony Parker
Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Jason Kidd/Jason Terry/Juan Barea
Ty Lawson/Raymond Felton/Billups
Monta Ellis/Steph Curry
Steve Nash
Andre Miller

So that has to factored into that equation as well. I would think...

Maybe a lil but you also have to remember Deron was traded to the east as well as Billups and Felton being traded between the confrences during the season. So there really wasn't extra matchups against those guys. The I would say the extra game or two matched up against Rondo, Wall, Jennings, Collinson, and Augustine would make it close to a wash with those other guys. At the PG position there really isn't a night off and with the trades that went down not much of a difference between the East and West PG's.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

^^I mean those trades just happen this season.^^ I understand where your coming from. But those Point guards on West are top of the line.

I think as (Pared said) that Westbrook brings a different enegry on the defense end then Rose does. Its almost as if Westbrook is LOOKING to make plays on the defense end. And Rose is sort of just waiting for a play to come his way. Not that Rose is coasting.

I think Westbrook is an Elite point guard defender. Where as in Rose is just an sightly above average defender. That's the difference I feel.