2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

It isn't, but having an elite record has ALWAYS mattered when discussing the MVP. Reason why teams like San Antonio, Boston, the mid 2000s Detroit teams didn't have an MVP is because their teams were more balanced and did not have one standout superstar. Whether you don't feel Rose is efficient or not, he is the main catalyst on that Bulls team and has won and bailed them out of a lot of games. He has been the constant.

Ok, I'll give you that, records matter. The Magic, Heat, Mavs, Lakers, and Thunder all have 50 plus wins. Elite records. So why exactly do people continually use the Bulls 62 wins as Rose's MVP validation?

LeBron justifiably won his MVPs putting up those numbers when his team was winning 66 and 60 games respectively. You can't give LeBron MVP when his teams prior to that maxed out at 50 wins.

LeBron also had the the best statistical seasons of any other player when he won his MVP awards. The same most definitely can't be said for Rose.

The Bulls current lineup has played less than 30 combined regular season games.

Ok?

Bird won 3 consecutive MVPs, Magic won 3 MVPs. Both Magic and Bird ruled the 80s and their teams were always among the best, so they NEVER had bad teams, bad teammates, AND their numbers were phenomenal. As for Jordan, he won his first MVP in a season where Magic's team won 62 games, and Bird had his team 1st in the East averaging 30, 9 and 6. The MVP could've went to either of those guys, especially considering Jordan's team was 3rd in the East with 50 wins. However, Jordan had a HISTORICAL season averaging 35, 6, 6, 3 steals and almost 2 blocks while shooting FIFTY-FOUR PERCENT from the guard position. He also won Defensive Player of the Year. Bird and Magic finished 2nd and 3rd behind him. True, Magic's team had the best record, but he had also missed like 10 games and didn't do as well as his previous season. Bird could've easily gotten another MVP, but the NBA was looking for something new apparently. I just can't give the MVP to Howard because what he's doing as a center is not unprecedented. If Howard put up numbers similar to a Hakeem, Admiral, or even Ewing by averaging something like 25, 14, 3-4 blocks....he would have the MVP sewn up.

So, in order for Howard to win the MVP, he has to post numbers superior to those posted by all time greats? Why should Howard be held to a higher standard than Rose? Rose isn't having an historically unprecedented season. Far from it, so why exactly does he deserve the award? Especially when his numbers pale to every other current candidate.

[BlueNGold]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Then why do people keep bringing up the fact that Rose's team finished with the best regular season record?

Because it adds to his "MVP resume'". You don't HAVE to have the best record in the league to win MVP, but when you consider that Rose pretty much carried the team on his shoulders for most of the season with many new players and big injuries to two of his most key teammates, it just made him all the more valuable.

And before you say it, yes Dwight carried his team as well, but are you really going to give the MVP to a guy who you can't even rely on in the last 2 minutes of a close game and whose team is scared to go to him in that situation?



You'd be surprised.

Yes I would because no logical person is going crazy over that stat line.

Responses in bold.

Westbrook was an All-Star this year.

Oops, lol. Good catch.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I mean, I guess if it makes anyone feel better about Rose getting MVP, you can say he won it by default.

Honestly, in the greater spectrum of things, it isn't that big of a deal. It's just a discussion. Years like this tarnish the validity of the award though. At least in my opinion.

LeBron plays with Wade who also puts up great numbers...but they finished worse than the Bulls. It's not like Bird's Celtics, or Magic's Lakers, or even Jordan's Bulls....Miami has 2 alpha dogs, and LeBron has shown repeatedly he can't even close out a game.

Again, having the best record in the league isn't a prequsite of winning the MVP award. The Heat have an elite record, and as you said, that's enough. And why exactly are we punishing candidates for playing with competent players? And yes, the Heat have two alpha dogs. Both of which put up better numbers than Rose.

As for LeBron's inability to close out a game? How quickly people forget. LeBron has had numerous clutch performances in later stages of the playoffs. He didn't just "make a key layup" to win against Indiana, an 8th seed. He had 48/9/7 and scored 29 of the team's last 30 points in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference finals: In Detroit, against the team who just so happened to be the #1 seed. He also hit a game winning 3 at the buzzer in the eastern conference finals against Orlando. He also scored or assisted on 32 points in the 4th quarter of Game 5 against Orlando. Etc.

Kobe plays with a deep squad, but the team went on a few lulls this year (5 consecutive losses at the end of the season and 3 consecutive losses to losing teams prior to All Star Break)...and they finished worse than the Bulls.

Why do you keep bringing up the fact that teams finished with worse records than the Bulls if having the best record in the league isn't a prequsite of winning the award?

Dwight had a fantastic season, but they struggled against elite squads, and his numbers are not so outstanding where you HAVE to give him the MVP when his team is in 4th place

.

He willed his team to 52(an elite record right?) wins despite having a shoddy supporting cast, a major mid season trade, and the flu epidemic that hit the Magic. We should be applauding his efforts.

Moreover, he's a far better defensive player than Rose, and has put up similar scoring numbers. He's done the latter far more efficiently.

Rose put up decent numbers, even if they were not very efficient, but he did lead his team to the best record after losing his bigs to injury for EXTENDED periods. He has bailed his team out time and time again. His team has not lost more than TWO consecutive games all year...marinate on that. His team either split or has a winning record against ALL the elite teams this season. I just don't see how you can't give him the MVP, this shouldn't even be an argument anymore.

I can see how you don't give him the MVP.

1. He's not the best player in the league. He's not even a top 5 player.
2. He's not the best player at his position.
3. Statistically, he's in the shadow of every other MVP candidate.

Etc

The only thing he has going for him is the "best record in the league" moniker; which isn't, nor has it ever been a prerequsite for winning the MVP award. This isn't a team award, it's an individual award. And individually, he pales to the other candidates.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Because it adds to his "MVP resume'". You don't HAVE to have the best record in the league to win MVP, but when you consider that Rose pretty much carried the team on his shoulders for most of the season with many new players and big injuries to two of his most key teammates, it just made him all the more valuable.

Every star player carries their team. It's nothing new, and it most definitely doesn't set him apart from the handful of other superstars who've carried their teams.

And before you say it, yes Dwight carried his team as well, but are you really going to give the MVP to a guy who you can't even rely on in the last 2 minutes of a close game and whose team is scared to go to him in that situation?

Yes, I am. Because Howard's more valuable to his team, he's the better player, he's more efficient, etc.

[BlueNGold]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Honestly, in the greater spectrum of things, it isn't that big of a deal. It's just a discussion. Years like this tarnish the validity of the award though. At least in my opinion.

As for LeBron's inability to close out a game? How quickly people forget. LeBron has had numerous clutch performances in later stages of the playoffs. He didn't just "make a key layup" to win against Indiana, an 8th seed. He had 48/9/7 and scored 29 of the team's last 30 points in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference finals: In Detroit, against the team who just so happened to be the #1 seed. He also hit a game winning 3 at the buzzer in the eastern conference finals against Orlando. He also scored or assisted on 32 points in the 4th quarter of Game 5 against Orlando. Etc.

The only thing he has going for him is the "best record in the league" moniker; which isn't, nor has it ever been a prerequsite for winning the MVP award. This isn't a team award, it's an individual award. And individually, he pales to the other candidates.

I hardly see how Rose possibly winning the MVP "tarnishes" it. It's not like Eddy Curry is winning it or something ridiculous like that. Rose is a worthy candidate and that's all there is to say about that.

Sure, this year isn't the strongest MVP race because IMO pretty much all of the stars are undergoing some type of change and still adjusting to it (Melo and Amar'e to NY, LeBron and Wade playing together, etc.) but Rose is a worthy candidate. I don't know how any unbiased person could be so turned off by the guy winning it.

Your point to LeBron's clutch ability is completely irrelevant in this discussion. I totally disagree with people who want to call him out on not being a clutch player, but you're bringing up moments from years ago while talking about an award based solely on this year alone. A year in which LeBron came up short in almost all of his opportunities to make the big shot.

Rose hardly pales in comparison to other MVP candidates. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. You say having the best record in the league isn't a prerequisite for being the MVP (which I agree with), but neither is not falling under some random people's "Top 5 Players" list.

Every star player carries their team. It's nothing new, and it most definitely doesn't set him apart from the handful of other superstars who've carried their teams.

Apparently you skipped the part where I said he carried the team with many new teammates and two of his most key teammates out of the lineup for significant periods of time.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Every star player carries their team. It's nothing new, and it most definitely doesn't set him apart from the handful of other superstars who've carried their teams.



Yes, I am. Because Howard's more valuable to his team, he's the better player, he's more efficient, etc.

Yeah but other star players don't carry they're teams without the second and third best players on the team. The excuse for LeBron and the Heat's struggles throughout the year and looking a hot mess at times against elite competition was being guys who are learning how to play together because they were all new to playing with each other. The only people still on the Bulls this year from last year are Taj, Luol and Joakim. You're making cases for not just harping on one thing in favor of Rose while only griping about one thing 'his stats.'

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I hardly see how Rose possibly winning the MVP "tarnishes" it. It's not like Eddy Curry is winning it.

What's not to see? He's had a great season, but if we're comparing him to his peers, he doesn't deserve it. Thus, muddling the validity of the award.

Sure, this year isn't the strongest MVP race because IMO pretty much all of the stars are undergoing some type of change and still adjusting to it (Melo and Amar'e to NY, LeBron and Wade playing together, etc.) but Rose is a worthy candidate. I don't know how any unbiased person could be so turned off by the guy winning it.

I think it's as strong as any other season. All of the top candidates have played well, lead their respective teams to the playoffs, etc. Feels much of the same to me.

And LeBron and Wade adjusted just fine. Both had better seasons than Rose. Melo will probably never win an MVP.

Your point to LeBron's clutch ability is completely irrelevant in this discussion. I totally disagree with people who want to call him out on not being a clutch player, but you're bringing up moments from years ago while talking about an award based solely on this year alone. A year in which LeBron came up short in almost all of his opportunities to make the big shot.

My point wasn't/isn't irrelevant. Someone claimed LeBron has never proven he can close a game. I provided specific instances in which he has. In big time games none the less.

Rose hardly pales in comparison to other MVP candidates. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. You say having the best record in the league isn't a prerequisite for being the MVP (which I agree with), but neither is not falling under some random people's "Top 5 Players" list.

Because sans Nash, his numbers pale greatly to prior winners. LeBron the last two seasons, Kobe, Dirk, etc.

Apparently you skipped the part where I said he carried the team with many new teammates and two of his most key teammates out of the lineup for significant periods of time.

LeBron had tons of new teammates this season as well. His team won 58 games, and his numbers are smashing Rose's. And it isn't close.

As I already pointed out, the Bulls have been one of the healthiest teams this season. How many games did Boozer and Noah miss together?

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Yeah but other star players don't carry they're teams without the second and third best players on the team. The excuse for LeBron and the Heat's struggles throughout the year and looking a hot mess at times against elite competition was being guys who are learning how to play together because they were all new to playing with each other. The only people still on the Bulls this year from last year are Taj, Luol and Joakim. You're making cases for not just harping on one thing in favor of Rose while only griping about one thing 'his stats.'

Who were Dwight Howard's second and third best players this season? They got traded. And as we've seen in the playoffs, he carried that team by his lonesome. Without him, they're nothing.

The whole, "he carried the team while they were hurt" argument is tired. The Bulls have been ONE OF THE HEALTHIEST TEAMS THIS SEASON. Yes, both Noah and Boozer have been out, but for the most part, separately from one another. And in my opinion, it wasn't Rose's individual talent, but team defense and rebounding that carried the Bulls.(Just like it has in the playoffs, despite Rose's poor performances in game 3 & 4)

Btw, that wasn't my excuse for the Heat. But even if it were, despite their struggles, both Wade and LeBron, respectively, have had better seasons than Rose. And I still fail to understand why people are harping on the Heat, despite them winning 58 games.

[BlueNGold]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

What's not to see? He's had a great season, but if we're comparing him to his peers, he doesn't deserve it. Thus, muddling the validity of the award.



I think it's as strong as any other season. All of the top candidates have played well, lead their respective teams to the playoffs, etc. Feels much of the same to me.

And LeBron and Wade adjusted just fine. Both had better seasons than Rose. Melo will probably never win an MVP.



My point wasn't/isn't irrelevant. Someone claimed LeBron has never proven he can close a game. I provided specific instances in which he has. In big time games none the less.



Because sans Nash, his numbers pale greatly to prior winners. LeBron the last two seasons, Kobe, Dirk, etc.



LeBron had tons of new teammates this season as well. His team won 58 games, and his numbers are smashing Rose's. And it isn't close.

As I already pointed out, the Bulls have been one of the healthiest teams this season. How many games did Boozer and Noah miss together?

Not even gonna beat around the bush here, Rose "not deserving" the MVP is nonsense. I don't care if someone thinks another player should win it, that's fine, but to say he doesn't deserve it? C'mon now.

About the LeBron clutch thing, yes your point was irrelevant. The thread title says 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP. None of your examples had anything to do with this season. And yeah, Wade and LeBron adjusted just fine while they started off the season a mess, struggled against elite teams all season long, and still have no definitive idea who takes the last shot when it comes down to it. Not saying they're playing terrible together, because clearly they aren't, but they still haven't fully adjusted.

Why do you keep bringing up Rose's numbers? That's half the battle when it comes to deciding the MVP. You're refusing to acknowledge basically everything else about the guy's case for MVP.

Yeah sure, LeBron had new teammates, but I guess I didn't see the part where his two best teammates missed months with injuries.

BTW wasn't your MVP Kevin Durant? Now all of the sudden it's Dwight?

[BlueNGold]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

And in my opinion, it wasn't Rose's individual talent, but team defense and rebounding that carried the Bulls.(Just like it has in the playoffs, despite Rose's poor performances in game 3 & 4)

Yeah, because we all know if you take Derrick Rose's scoring off the team that the Bulls would still be winning all these games with their defense and rebounding.

30+ point games against Boston (twice), Orlando, San Antonio (twice), Portland, Miami and L.A. didn't carry the Bulls anywhere. Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer (assuming he was healthy) surely would have made up that difference.

BTW playoffs have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. I don't know why you keep referencing them.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Not even gonna beat around the bush here, Rose "not deserving" the MVP is nonsense. I don't care if someone thinks another player should win it, that's fine, but to say he doesn't deserve it? C'mon now.

Subjectively, maybe, but not objectively. So no, he doesn't. He's a tier below those who do. Dude's playing comparable to Russell Westbrook and Monta Ellis and we're speaking as if he's already entered the realm of the elite. Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, etc.

About the LeBron clutch thing, yes your point was irrelevant. The thread title says 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP. None of your examples had anything to do with this season.

It was completely relevant. Someone claims he cant close games, I provided instances in which he has. Period. A single season, which is an extremely small sample size in their careers, isn't a valid basis for comments such as the one my response was geared to. Thus, it was debunked.

And yeah, Wade and LeBron adjusted just fine while they started off the season a mess, struggled against elite teams all season long, and still have no definitive idea who takes the last shot when it comes down to it. Not saying they're playing terrible together, because clearly they aren't, but they still haven't fully adjusted.

So what? They finished strong. They're in the playoffs. They'll likely be in the next round. But this is the "MVP" thread right? The individual award. And as I've already pointed out, individually, they both have played better than Rose.

Why do you keep bringing up Rose's numbers?

Because they're relevant to the discussion.

That's half the battle when it comes to deciding the MVP.

The other half is winning games right? Well, all they other candidates have done so as well.

You're refusing to acknowledge basically everything else about the guy's case for MVP.

What's his case: He lead his team to the best record in the NBA? I've Acknowledged that multiple times. It isn't a prerequisite of winning the award.

Yeah sure, LeBron had new teammates, but I guess I didn't see the part where his two best teammates missed months with injuries

We've already been over this. The Bulls, for the most part, were healthy this season. While Boozer and Noah missed time, they did so separate from one another.(for the most part)

BTW wasn't your MVP Kevin Durant? Now all of the sudden it's Dwight?

It could be Dwight, Durant, Dirk, Wade, or LeBron. You choose. They've all played better than Rose, and in my opinion, would be more deserving of the award. Personally, after a revision, I have it like this.

1. Dwight Howard
2. LeBron James
3. Dwayne Wade
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kevin Durant

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Yeah, because we all know if you take Derrick Rose's scoring off the team that the Bulls would still be winning all these games with their defense and rebounding.

They won game three. Yea, he scored 20, but he did so on a poor shooting night. He played poorly in game 4 as well, but his team kept it close. They're a solid team. Despite his struggles, they've been right there.

30+ point games against Boston (twice), Orlando, San Antonio (twice), Portland, Miami and L.A. didn't carry the Bulls anywhere. Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer (assuming he was healthy) surely would have made up that difference.

Yes, Rose can score. So can every other candidate, and typically, far more efficiently.

Yes, he's instrumental to his teams success. But it isn't LeBron and the Cavs out there. He as a solid coach, and a good supporting cast. Even on his off nights, the Bulls are capable of keeping things close and pulling out wins.

BTW playoffs have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. I don't know why you keep referencing them.

We can stick to the regular season discussion. He wasn't the best then either.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

All I can say is that the NBA forum is highly stressful.

Originally Posted by TheMatrix31
Sometimes you'll have the arguments about MVP definition. Is it about stats? Is it about the best player on one of the best teams? Is it if you take them off the team, the team suffers? Is it about putting the team on your back? Is it making everyone else better?

Derrick Rose represents all those factors. Bulls have the #1 record in the league, everyone thought that Miami, Orlando, and Boston would firmly be ahead of them, his stats are phenomenal, he's put the team on his back with no other true "superstar"......

Okay, so his stats aren't "phenomenal". Actually, I take issue (of course I do) with the notion that Rose's statistics are subpar and on "Nash MVP" level. Nash's statistics in his MVP seasons were much better than Rose's.

15.5/11.5 with 50%/43%/89%
18.8/10.5 with 51%/44%/92%

vs.

25/7.7 with 44%/33%/86%

Look.....as I said before, the definition is complicated. It's not just most wins, it's not just best stats, its not just best player, it's not just whatever. It's a combination of EVERYTHING. Rose led his team to a position in the conference and the league that no one expected them to achieve. That, to me, is the clincher. He put his team on his back, just like all the other candidates did, except he did it better. The Bulls went on a 9 game winning streak to close out the year and seal the deal on the #1 seed, including over Orlando, though Howard didn't play. Either way, Rose put up 39 points on 13/17 shooting. They also beat the Celtics the game before that, where Rose put up 30/8 on 56% shooting. Hell, throughout the season, just thinking about how many times I knew, watched, or heard about someone coming up HUGE down the stretch and putting his team on his back, I can recall Rose being in that situation more than Howard. I'm not going to recall specific instances because its 4:07am and frankly, I'm not sure why I'm responding to this crap yet again.

They lost four times since the All-Star Break, and Orlando lost nine times. Look, it's not a "team" award, but in a sense....it is, because part of the "MVP" equation is what you're doing that helps your team win the most games possible and bettering your teammates. Orlando lost 8 of 9 games from 12/4 to 12/21 and I'm sorry, but that hurts his case with me. He didn't play in the game on 12/4 actually, but other than that, it's not like you can say he didn't play and say, "Well, them going on such a stretch just proves how much of an MVP candidate he really is", like you can with Dirk and Dallas, who went on a major slump when Dirk went down. Dwight had some gawdy numbers during those games, but again, numbers don't mean much when they don't translate into W's for the team.

A 10 game difference in wins is pretty damn big, and can be a major decider. After all, wins were the difference in 2007 when Dirk won. His team won 67 games when the Suns won like 61 and Nash had even better numbers than his prior years.

It's all about the package as a whole. You cannot look at one single thing to make your entire argument, but you can take one single thing to tip the balance.

I just cant imagine someone dying to disparage Rose's season so badly. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. Jeez.

[Jasong7777]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

I know everybody is entitled to their opinion, but wow.

1. Rose
2. Howard
3. Lebron

[CMH]

Can someone share the official definition of what it takes to win an MVP? I'm reading about things not being prerequisites to winning it but I can't recall seeing that in the official definition. Surely someone has it since so many people know the answer.

Thanks!


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