2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

[Jasong7777]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Can someone share the official definition of what it takes to win an MVP? I'm reading about things not being prerequisites to winning it but I can't recall seeing that in the official definition. Surely someone has it since so many people know the answer.

There is no definition, that I know of. That's part of the problem.

[Dice]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

There is no definition, that I know of. That's part of the problem.

Exactly. But one of the things that we have coming into somewhat of an agreement on how the MVP is chosen. He has to be the best players on one of the top six teams in the league. We have discovered that rarely the MVP is chosen from a team that's below the top six teams in the league. That's basically all we know.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

So basically, from what I've gathered, Rose wins the award by default, because his team finished with the best record in the league when no one expected them to?(Despite the fact that it isn't a team award)

Okay, so his stats aren't "phenomenal". Actually, I take issue (of course I do) with the notion that Rose's statistics are subpar and on "Nash MVP" level. Nash's statistics in his MVP seasons were much better than Rose's.

15.5/11.5 with 50%/43%/89%
18.8/10.5 with 51%/44%/92%

vs.

25/7.7 with 44%/33%/86%

I apologize. On that front, I was wrong. But, this further confirms my belief that Rose's individual statistics haven't been overtly phenomenal, yet we've excused him for that, and are giving him the nod because his team had the best record. Which is odd, because it isn't a team award.

[CMH]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

But, this further confirms my belief that Rose's individual statistics haven't been overtly phenomenal, yet we've excused him for that, and are giving him the nod because his team had the best record. Which is odd, because it isn't a team award.

I think this is exactly it. I don't agree that the MVP isn't a team award, though. I mean, I get what you're saying, but no individual could win the MVP without the rest of the team's performance. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone willing to give the award to a man that scores 30+ ppg but finished on a last place team. There'd be many that would argue that while his stats were phenomenal, it did nothing to help his team win.

And I think that's why Rose is beloved at this point. Not taking anything away from Rose because he is one of the best players in the league, but the Bulls played above and beyond their expectations and voters are going to look at the leader of the squad who also happens to be a distributor.

The fact of the matter is, every MVP Award is given months in advance. So long as the player continues on his torrid pace, he will hold onto the award. There is no real rhyme or reason for why one guy takes it over the other, but the simplicity of that guy being the favorite amongst the voters and watching public.

Once the name was dropped, people paid attention and it was Rose's award to lose. Considering what his team did in the second half, the majority isn't going to side-step that proclamation. This has been the case in nearly every MVP race in NBA, MLB, NFL and NHL history.

Does it make it fair? I'm not sure. But that's why I brought up my question. It was sarcastic for a reason. There is no true definition of MVP. It is what the voters want it to be.

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

So basically, from what I've gathered, Rose wins the award by default, because his team finished with the best record in the league when no one expected them to?(Despite the fact that it isn't a team award)

Seriously, this is what you have gathered?

You take one portion of his MVP resume, one single portion, and say that he can't be MVP because that one portion is not at all relevant to who wins MVP?

Nobody said Rose is the MVP just because his team won 62 games this year.

Nobody.


Rose is the MVP this year because he won 62 games with an almost entirely new team assembled by the front office, put up great stats, not record stats, but great, and did all of it with his two best players, bigs, integral to the success of a PG, out for large portions of the season. Rose is the MVP because he has shown the ability to "close" (don't like that term), that is, carry the offense late in close games. Rose is the MVP because he had huge games in victories over almost every "elite" team in the NBA. Rose is the MVP because at every point in the game, Chicago understands that he is the leader, he is the first-wheel, Batman, however you'd like to put it, and he fulfills that role. Rose is the MVP because he attracts attention from every opposing player on the court, opening his teammates up for opportunities, and most importantly, he finds them. Rose is the MVP because when he is having an off-game, as even the greatest do, he can shake it off and hit the clutch shot at the end of the game.

Rose is the MVP because all of those things, as a whole, not one individually, reinforce his resume. Although many other players have some of these things going for them this year, none of them have as deep and well-rounded a resume as Rose.

[Dice]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

In some cases, the MVP is also based on circumstances for that particular season. On prime example is the second MVP award Steve Nash won. The Suns won 54 games without Amare Stoudemire for almost the entire season and Boris Diaw playing center for most of the season.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Seriously, this is what you have gathered?

That's essentially the only argument that's been given as to why he's more deserving, than say, Dwight Howard. His teams record: because by every other objectionable measure, he's eclipsed.

You take one portion of his MVP resume, one single portion, and say that he can't be MVP because that one portion is not at all relevant to who wins MVP?

On the contrary, I've take multiple facets of the MVP award, and shown how other players fit the particular bill more aptly. Best player or even top 5 player, statistical measures, importance to their particular team, etc. He comes short on every front in my opinion.

Nobody said Rose is the MVP just because his team won 62 games this year. Nobody.

Actually, yes, they have.

Rose is the MVP this year because he won 62 games with an almost entirely new team assembled by the front office, put up great stats, not record stats, but great, and did all of it with his two best players, bigs, integral to the success of a PG, out for large portions of the season

LeBron James and Dwayne Wade won 58 with entirely new teams, both put up great stats, dwarfing Rose's both offensively and defensively. Dwight Howard faced similar adversity through a mid season roster shake up, and still posted monstrous numbers while leading his team to 52 wins. And for the most part, his supporting cast is incompetent.

Rose is the MVP because he has shown the ability to "close" (don't like that term), that is, carry the offense late in close games.

Every star closes for their team. You know who, statistically, has been the best closer? Dirk Nowitzki. Just another one of those MVP candidates who's statistically superior, and more efficient than Derrick Rose. Led his team to 57 wins, despite Caron Butler going down, and Jason Terry being his second option.

Rose is the MVP because he had huge games in victories over almost every "elite" team in the NBA.

Same applies to essentially every other candidate.

Rose is the MVP because at every point in the game, Chicago understands that he is the leader, he is the first-wheel, Batman, however you'd like to put it, and he fulfills that role.

The only MVP candidates that are having issues determining who is and isn't Batman is Miami. Which, is understandable considering they have two players that are individually superior to the Bulls leader.

Every other candidate; Dwight Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kevin Durant, are all the unquestioned leaders of their squads. In fact, the latter, Durant, was the unquestioned leader of a team he played on during the summer. Rose was on that team.

Rose is the MVP because he attracts attention from every opposing player on the court, opening his teammates up for opportunities, and most importantly, he finds them.

Same applies to every other candidate. They've all faced double and triple teams, they all open up looks for their teammates.

And he's the PG, he should find them.

Rose is the MVP because when he is having an off-game, as even the greatest do, he can shake it off and hit the clutch shot at the end of the game.

Statistically, he's not the most clutch of the MVP candidates. But, I digress. I find that to be an arbitrary measure anyway.

Rose is the MVP because all of those things, as a whole, not one individually, reinforce his resume. Although many other players have some of these things going for them this year, none of them have as deep and well-rounded a resume as Rose.

Except that same measures apply to every other candidate.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

In some cases, the MVP is also based on circumstances for that particular season. On prime example is the second MVP award Steve Nash won. The Suns won 54 games without Amare Stoudemire for almost the entire season and Boris Diaw playing center for most of the season.

Understandable.

Now, what about Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki? Dwight's team was shaken up mid season. Nowitzki played without Caron Butler.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Understandable.

Now, what about Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki? Dwight's team was shaken up mid season. Nowitzki played without Caron Butler.

And no one was talking about Dwight as number one, two or three on MVP lists before February. Of course I'm certain if it was Rose coming on in Feb, people would be fighting tooth and nail for his MVP case.

[Bumi]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

And no one was talking about Dwight as number one, two or three on MVP lists before February. Of course I'm certain if it was Rose coming on in Feb, people would be fighting tooth and nail for his MVP case.

That's non consequential.


Seriously though. I'm curious as to why I've been bombarded with this "Well Rose played without player X"(We're not going to mention that the Bulls have been one of the healthiest teams in the league), and that's why he's the MVP; When Dirk posted better numbers under similar circumstances, and Dwight's roster was completely shaken up, the Magic had the flu epidemic, and despite it all, Dwight was far and away better than Rose?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

That's non consequential.


Seriously though. I'm curious as to why I've been bombarded with this "Well Rose played without player X"(We're not going to mention that the Bulls have been one of the healthiest teams in the league), and that's why he's the MVP; When Dirk posted better numbers under similar circumstances, and Dwight's roster was completely shaken up, the Magic had the flu epidemic, and despite it all, Dwight was far and away better than Rose?

You keep mentioning this Bulls have been one of the healthiest teams thing like it actually means something. When you lose two of your best players for extended periods of time, you don't get to claim good health cause everybody else managed to not get hurt. That's like saying Cleveland has been one of the healthiest teams in the league this year cause the D-Leaguers they had to trot out there when they're best players were hurt didn't get injured. And Dwight wasn't far and away better than Rose. That's the thing about this year's race, none of them have been far and away better than each other. You continue to complain about people using ONE argument with you (when people are saying more than one thing but I digress) and yet all you continue to go on and on about are the stats. I don't even know why I'm continuing to indulge you by arguing this lol. You clearly have your mind made up and an agenda against Rose to push. If you don't think he's the MVP, it should go to someone else fine, but this underserving, tainting the award talk is trash, plain and simple.

[mKoz26]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

That's essentially the only argument that's been given as to why he's more deserving, than say, Dwight Howard. His teams record: because by every other objectionable measure, he's eclipsed.

I don't know what you mean by objectionable measure.

Do you mean to say objective measure?

Because, if so, your opinion is anything but objective. You state so many things as facts but the only facts are statistics.

Even your evaluation of those statistics is subjective.

On the contrary, I've take multiple facets of the MVP award, and shown how other players fit the particular bill more aptly. Best player or even top 5 player, statistical measures, importance to their particular team, etc. He comes short on every front in my opinion.

In your opinion? What happened to objectivity? "Best player" is the absolute most subjective measure ever created.

You can't claim your analysis is irrefutably-objective while still using "best player" as criteria.

Your opinion is no more objective than anybody else's.

Actually, yes, they have.

Who? Provide me with a quote and a post link since you insist people have said that.

LeBron James and Dwayne Wade won 58 with entirely new teams, both put up great stats, dwarfing Rose's both offensively and defensively. Dwight Howard faced similar adversity through a mid season roster shake up, and still posted monstrous numbers while leading his team to 52 wins. And for the most part, his supporting cast is incompetent.

LeBron and Dwyane Wade chose to build their team the way they did. There's absolutely no arguing that whatsoever.

Dwight has had a tough situation. I agree with that. But he's still only the 4th seed in the East. The claim that he had a tough situation adds to a resume most when despite the situation, the team still shows itself to be "elite".

Dwight's team had only the eighth-best record in the league.

Now, before you say record is my only rebuttal, I'm not saying Dwight can't be the MVP just because he only had the eighth-best record in the league. I'm saying that it's hard to say he overcame such a tough situation when his team's record isn't up there with the Bulls and Heat. Still only one small part of the resume, but it doesn't help Dwight much in comparison to Rose.

Also, the Magic are not "incompetent".

They may not be the Lakers, but they have skilled players. Their record is probably right where it should be for a team of their overall talent, including Dwight.

Every star closes for their team. You know who, statistically, has been the best closer? Dirk Nowitzki. Just another one of those MVP candidates who's statistically superior, and more efficient than Derrick Rose. Led his team to 57 wins, despite Caron Butler going down, and Jason Terry being his second option.

Okay, stats please for Dirk's closing. Not that I doubt you.

Also, the Mavericks are very deep and get a ton of scoring from their bench. Much like Chicago.

However, Chicago had five more wins despite having TWO of their three best players out for large portions of the season each.

And Derrick Rose had a higher efficiency rating (which you keep bringing up) than Dirk.

Same applies to essentially every other candidate.

Not true at all.

LeBron/Wade couldn't beat the Bulls in four tries.

That puts a solid dent in each resume.

The only MVP candidates that are having issues determining who is and isn't Batman is Miami. Which, is understandable considering they have two players that are individually superior to the Bulls leader.

Every other candidate; Dwight Howard, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kevin Durant, are all the unquestioned leaders of their squads. In fact, the latter, Durant, was the unquestioned leader of a team he played on during the summer. Rose was on that team.

First, stop with the petty "Which, is understandable considering they have two players that are individually superior to the Bulls leader".

It proves nothing and the subtle jab only makes you look even more preset in your evaluations of all the MVP candidates. You don't back it up with anything so it means nothing.

Dwight: The Magic don't look to him late in games.
Dirk: Agreed, he is the offensive leader at all times.
KD: Westbrook takes the reigns late in games at times, but I will agree that KD is the leader.

Same applies to every other candidate. They've all faced double and triple teams, they all open up looks for their teammates.

And he's the PG, he should find them.

Only Dwight is equal to Rose in the amount of double-teams faced. The others have squads offensively-balanced enough to make double-teams completely illogical. Especially the Heat and Thunder.

Statistically, he's not the most clutch of the MVP candidates. But, I digress. I find that to be an arbitrary measure anyway.

All measures are arbitrary.

And if Dirk is more clutch, it's still not just about that one thing.

It's about the entire resume.

Except that same measures apply to every other candidate.

But no candidate has every of the same measures apply to him.


Let me simplify this for you.

It's not about being the best stat-stuffer, winner, most-clutch, most-efficient, least assisted, or most resilient.

There might be a different answer for each of those.

However, when you have a guy who's near the top of all those things, he has a great case for MVP, even if he isn't the best at any.

Our debates arise from the difference in opinion about which are most important of those categories.


Honestly though, specifically speaking to you, it seems like you built your criteria for MVP based on what fits Rose the least. Especially when you conclude that he's not even in the top five in the MVP race.

[BlueNGold]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

You continue to complain about people using ONE argument with you (when people are saying more than one thing but I digress) and yet all you continue to go on and on about are the stats. I don't even know why I'm continuing to indulge you by arguing this lol. You clearly have your mind made up and an agenda against Rose to push. If you don't think he's the MVP, it should go to someone else fine, but this underserving, tainting the award talk is trash, plain and simple.

This is exactly why I've just given up with this nonsense. It was tired weeks ago when we went through this exact same discussion, now it's beyond tired.

It's fine if someone doesn't agree with me or anyone else that Derrick Rose is not the MVP, but to make all these ridiculous claims about how it'd be "tarnishing the award" or that he's just straight up undeserving makes it pointless to even bother continuing this discussion/argument because it's getting pretty obvious that there's more to it than just not thinking Rose should win the award. At this point it's just not worth the time.

[Dice]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

Understandable.

Now, what about Dwight Howard and Dirk Nowitzki? Dwight's team was shaken up mid season. Nowitzki played without Caron Butler.

Neither one plays with the caliber player that Nash played with at that time. Amare was the Suns leading scorer and one of the best big men in the league. Sorry BUT Vince Carter and Caron Butler does not match up to what Amare did for the Suns in 05.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2010-11 NBA Regular Season MVP Discussion

For the record. Dirk who's been called statistically superior to Rose in here, as if he's just so much better than him...

23.0/2.6/7.0 Dirk

25.0/7.7/4.1 Rose

Then you have the percentages

FT 0.892/ 3P 0.393/ FG 0.517/ MPG 34.3 for Dirk

FT 0.853/ 3P 0.332/ FG 0.445/ MPG 37.4 for Rose

Rose has the lower percentages but he's taking more shots than Dirk in every one of those.

FTM-A 476-555/ 3PM-A 128-385/ FGM-A 711-1,597 Derrick Rose

FTM-A 395-443/ 3PM-A 66-168/ FGM-A 610-1,179 Dirk Nowitzki

Just sayin...