Your All-Time Starting 5

[Drewski]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

And stats aren't everything, but they are there for a reason. Just to throw it out there.

Bird Career Averages

24.3 PPG / 6.3 AST / 10 REB / 1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.496 FG%

Bron Career (and counting)

27.7 PPG / 7.0 AST / 7.1 REB /1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.479 FG%

Just some numbers to think about. Not saying they prove James is anything more than Bird, or vice versa, but just for consideration. It's difficult to compare players in different eras of basketball to begin with.

[Bumi]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem


Also, LeBron >> Dr. J

LeBron is a better, more complete player than Julius. LOL @ saying J's defense and LeBron's defense are comparable. LeBron is a top 5 defender in the league.

Have you seen Doc play defense? Secondly, what exactly makes LeBron a "more complete player"? His passing ability? Because that's the only edge I can think of.

[Bumi]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

And stats aren't everything, but they are there for a reason. Just to throw it out there.

Bird Career Averages

24.3 PPG / 6.3 AST / 10 REB / 1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.496 FG%

Bron Career (and counting)

27.7 PPG / 7.0 AST / 7.1 REB /1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.479 FG%

Just some numbers to think about. Not saying they prove James is anything more than Bird, or vice versa, but just for consideration. It's difficult to compare players in different eras of basketball to begin with.

Yep. Wilt Chamberlain is the best player ever. Russel doesn't deserve to be in the top 10. Statistics are there for a reason.

[Drewski]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

Yep. Wilt Chamberlain is the best player ever. Russel doesn't deserve to be in the top 10. Statistics are there for a reason.

LoL because that's clearly what I said. You can cover your ears and tell me you aren't listening all you want, but all I was was throwing out something more than an anecdotal story to further the argument. I never said the stats are there and are the holy grail, I said stats are there, lets take a look.

[bkrich83]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

You can't say that James is a bum though. He's not. Look at his statistics. Look at what he can do on the court. You can't tell me James is amounting to nothing in his career - I'd venture to say he's already guaranteed HoF inductment if he retired at the end of this season without a ring. He'd have won his 3rd MVP this year if he hadn't left Cleveland as well, almost another guarantee. And not because it's the cool thing to do, but because he is really that good.

Legacies can be measured in rings.
Talent can be looked at in statistics. James, statistically, is a monster. I really don't like James either, I'm not a LBJ zombie, but it's impossible for me to ignore what the man can do.

Where did I say he was a bum? Or anything even close? I said he's not close to a guy who's arguably considered by most to be a top 4 or 5 player of all time. While he does have more phyiscal abilities than Bird, he's not as good of a player as Bird. Physical ability does not guarantee you will be great or that you will be a better player than someone with less talent.

James is a great player in his own right. But if we're going to compare him to Bird, it's not a close race.

[wwharton]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

No doubt, there are alot of things to look at. Are we looking skill wise or are we looking legacy wise? Are we considering intangibles or raw talent (obviously I think both are compelling). If I'm developing a list of 5 greatest players in the history of the game at their position, I would put Bird over Lebron in a heartbeat (for now). If we're looking at straight ability and dominance, I think Lebron has a pretty good case, putting aside legacies and looking solely at playing the game.

The way I look at "starting 5" I'm just thinking about putting a team on the court so legacy means nothing (which is also why I think James is a better choice than Dr J for this discussion, but that's just me). With that said, I still take Bird over James. James is an amazing player already but he's not Bird. It's not a matter of Bird having hardware and credit for helping put the NBA on the map. Bird was THAT GOOD. Bird dominated and it was on a championship level. Bird got triple doubles just bc Magic got one the night before and he had to stay ahead of him. Like I said, we can't just look at Lebron's potential. He's gotta fulfill it to be ahead of somebody like Bird... or at least more than he has at this point.

You can't say that James is a bum though. He's not. Look at his statistics. Look at what he can do on the court. You can't tell me James is amounting to nothing in his career - I'd venture to say he's already guaranteed HoF inductment if he retired at the end of this season without a ring. He'd have won his 3rd MVP this year if he hadn't left Cleveland as well, almost another guarantee. And not because it's the cool thing to do, but because he is really that good.

Legacies can be measured in rings.
Talent can be looked at in statistics. James, statistically, is a monster. I really don't like James either, I'm not a LBJ zombie, but it's impossible for me to ignore what the man can do.

That's not what he's saying (which is why he added that last part on the Leaf comment). Lebron is indeed a HOFer just based on what he's done to this point, but that's why many believe he could be (COULD BE) the best player ever... bc he has that kind of potential. A better example is Shaq. There is no argument that he's one of the best to ever play the game and a top 5 center of all time. But Shaq could've been the best player ever (or at least a serious player in that conversation). There's no shame in what Shaq accomplished but he didn't reach his full potential.

[bkrich83]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

And stats aren't everything, but they are there for a reason. Just to throw it out there.

Bird Career Averages

24.3 PPG / 6.3 AST / 10 REB / 1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.496 FG%

Bron Career (and counting)

27.7 PPG / 7.0 AST / 7.1 REB /1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.479 FG%

Just some numbers to think about. Not saying they prove James is anything more than Bird, or vice versa, but just for consideration. It's difficult to compare players in different eras of basketball to begin with.

You simply can't compare stats from different era's. Did you actually ever see Larry Bird play? Particularly in his prime?

And Bird was doing it when the league wasn't a watered down mess like it is now.

[Bumi]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

LoL because that's clearly what I said. You can cover your ears and tell me you aren't listening all you want, but all I was was throwing out something more than an anecdotal story to further the argument. I never said the stats are there and are the holy grail, I said stats are there, lets take a look.

I was doing the same. Also, Dwight is as good as Hakeem based on the numbers he posted this season. Look at the stats.

[wwharton]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

And stats aren't everything, but they are there for a reason. Just to throw it out there.

Bird Career Averages

24.3 PPG / 6.3 AST / 10 REB / 1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.496 FG%

Bron Career (and counting)

27.7 PPG / 7.0 AST / 7.1 REB /1.7 STL / .8 BLK
.479 FG%

Just some numbers to think about. Not saying they prove James is anything more than Bird, or vice versa, but just for consideration. It's difficult to compare players in different eras of basketball to begin with.

There are a lot of stats we can look at. I haven't checked but what about 3 pointers, 3pt %, FT %, triple doubles, All NBA, championships, etc.? And to be fair to both of them, we should compare stats during the same stretch of their careers... year 1 to year 8? I'm guessing Bird's averages came down as he aged, just like LBJ's will.

That's going with your argument, but that's still ignoring the important intangibles that made someone of Bird's athletic ability so ridiculously good... and also in comparison to James is not even close.

[Drewski]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

There are a lot of stats we can look at. I haven't checked but what about 3 pointers, 3pt %, FT %, triple doubles, All NBA, championships, etc.? And to be fair to both of them, we should compare stats during the same stretch of their careers... year 1 to year 8? I'm guessing Bird's averages came down as he aged, just like LBJ's will.

That's going with your argument, but that's still ignoring the important intangibles that made someone of Bird's athletic ability so ridiculously good... and also in comparison to James is not even close.

We can do all that, but it's pointless.

/posts stats

/lol what are stats

/good question, apparently nobody considers stats for what they are and are either black, or white around here.

Regardless, I'm not denying Bird's greatness. Simply playing devil's advocate at this point because I think discussion is -healthy- in the basketball world. It's incredibly difficult to compare player from era A to player from era B, no matter how you go about doing it. So generally, it just comes down to intangibles and legacy, which gives Bird a huge edge without question.

[bkrich83]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

There are a lot of stats we can look at. I haven't checked but what about 3 pointers, 3pt %, FT %, triple doubles, All NBA, championships, etc.? And to be fair to both of them, we should compare stats during the same stretch of their careers... year 1 to year 8? I'm guessing Bird's averages came down as he aged, just like LBJ's will.

That's going with your argument, but that's still ignoring the important intangibles that made someone of Bird's athletic ability so ridiculously good... and also in comparison to James is not even close.

Friggin Larry Bird.

• Bird's competitive nature often emerged in nearly constant trash-talking on the court. Some notable examples follow:
  
• During the three-point shooting contest on All-Star Weekend 1986, Bird entered the locker room, looked around without saying a word, then finally said, "I want all of you to know I am winning this thing. I'm just looking around to see who's gonna finish up second." He won the shooting contest.
  
• During one game on Christmas Day against the Indiana Pacers, before the game Bird told Chuck Person that he had a Christmas present waiting for him. During the game, when Person was on the bench, Bird shot a three-pointer on the baseline right in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry ****in' Christmas!", and then the shot went in. This was no doubt inspired by Person (nicknamed the "Rifleman") stating prior to the game that "The Rifleman is Coming, and He's Going Bird Hunting."
  
• Reggie Miller recalled his encounter with Larry Bird's legendary trash talking ability in his book "I Love Being The Enemy". Reggie tried to disrupt Larry's concentration when he was shooting free throws late in a game. Larry glared at him, made the first free throw and said, "Rook, I am the best shooter in the league right now. In the league. Understand? And you're up here trying to tell me something?" Then Larry buried the second free throw.
  
• Late in a tied game against the Seattle SuperSonics, Bird told Supersonics forward Xavier McDaniel, who was guarding him, “I’m going to get [the ball] right here and I am going to shoot it in your face.” As McDaniel remembers it, he responded by saying, “I know, I’ll be waiting.” After a timeout, Bird made two baseline cuts, then posted in the exact spot he had indicated to McDaniel, paused, turned, and made it in his face. He finished up the sequence by telling McDaniel, “I didn’t mean to leave two seconds on the clock.”
  
• On November 9, 1984, Bird was ejected along with Julius Erving in the third quarter after an on court scuffle. At the point of both ejections, Bird had outscored Erving 42 to 6. During the game, Bird had continuously informed Erving of their tallies with every chance he got to score. Bird denies this stating that it was teammate "M.L. (Carr) talking trash from the bench" during that game.[32] Eventually a shoving match ensued, then swings taken by both players, and finally a bench-clearing brawl.

I remember all these.

From his wikipedia page.

[Bumi]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

We can do all that, but it's pointless.

/posts stats

/lol what are stats

/good question, apparently nobody considers stats for what they are and are either black, or white around here.

Regardless, I'm not denying Bird's greatness. Simply playing devil's advocate at this point because I think discussion is -healthy- in the basketball world. It's incredibly difficult to compare player from era A to player from era B, no matter how you go about doing it. So generally, it just comes down to intangibles and legacy, which gives Bird a huge edge without question.

Comparing LeBron to Bird isn't healthy. It's merely continuing the trend of massively overrating LeBron's ability. There literally isn't an aspect of the game, outside of defense, that LeBron is Birds superior. Bird was just that good, and frankly, it wasn't close.

[Jeffx]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

PG-Magic
SG-Jordan
SF-Bird
PF-Duncan
C- Russell

Same as mine, except I have Wilt instead of Russell. Can't lose with either. The two greatest centers in league history, with Kareem third.

[wwharton]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

We can do all that, but it's pointless.

/posts stats

/lol what are stats

/good question, apparently nobody considers stats for what they are and are either black, or white around here.

Regardless, I'm not denying Bird's greatness. Simply playing devil's advocate at this point because I think discussion is -healthy- in the basketball world. It's incredibly difficult to compare player from era A to player from era B, no matter how you go about doing it. So generally, it just comes down to intangibles and legacy, which gives Bird a huge edge without question.

We've been having good discussion but the beginning of this post seems like some passive aggressive crap directed at other people's responses to you... just saying. I've been trying to respond to you seriously, but I do agree that you can't just look at stats. Even still, I suggested that there are other stats where Bird shines and James shows he's still got a ways to go to be on his level... and also that since Bird is already retired, his averages are negatively skewed by the later years that aren't included in Lebron's stats bc... well he's just in his prime now.

Either way, I'm always down for healthy discussion and play devil's advocate more than most on these boards probably like, lol. But this one is just clear as day... James should not be compared to Bird at this point. He has the potential to get to a level where he could be, and maybe even a point where Bird wouldn't even be worth comparing to his greatness. But it's a loooong road before he's reaching that potential if ever. Like I said, Shaq had the potential to be hands down better than Jordan, Wilt, Russell, etc. He didn't reach that potential.

[Drewski]

Re: Your All-Time Starting 5

We've been having good discussion but the beginning of this post seems like some passive aggressive crap directed at other people's responses to you... just saying. I've been trying to respond to you seriously, but I do agree that you can't just look at stats. Even still, I suggested that there are other stats where Bird shines and James shows he's still got a ways to go to be on his level... and also that since Bird is already retired, his averages are negatively skewed by the later years that aren't included in Lebron's stats bc... well he's just in his prime now.

Either way, I'm always down for healthy discussion and play devil's advocate more than most on these boards probably like, lol. But this one is just clear as day... James should not be compared to Bird at this point. He has the potential to get to a level where he could be, and maybe even a point where Bird wouldn't even be worth comparing to his greatness. But it's a loooong road before he's reaching that potential if ever. Like I said, Shaq had the potential to be hands down better than Jordan, Wilt, Russell, etc. He didn't reach that potential.

I'm with you, I'd dig some more stats to throw around with you if I wasnt at work for the next hour trying to wrap up the week. 3p% and such definitely favored Bird, off the top of my head. FG% did as well, figured I would settle with that.

I agree that we could look at years 1-8 for both to get a clearer picture. But at the end of the day I think we ccan both agree stats will never settle this argument, or any other argument. That's the beauty of basketball, the stats aren't everything. There's much, much more that is involved. It will definitely be interesting to see where Bron ends his career in this spectrum, but I can envision him being a part of the super friends has already dinged his intangible column almost to an irreperable state. He couldn't lead the Cavs (Which, I don't necessarily blame him, but that's neither here nor there), and retreated to somewhere he could rely on other "superstar" talents to help carry.