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  • Drewski
    Basketball Reasons
    • Jun 2011
    • 3783

    #91
    Originally posted by Sam Marlowe
    Also on the numbers front. I dont think anybody would say #8 was a championship caliber leader. He was gun for hire like Phil Jackson says in his book. His immaturity sometimes outshined his game. # 24 is is the reason we see his name in the middle of some people's 10 GOAT lists.
    Yes and no. If he didn't accomplish what he did as ocho, he wouldn't be regarded as highly as he is, in my opinion. He's been better, so to speak, as a team oriented basketball player as 24, but he did some amazing things prior that definitely make his resume pop a bit more.

    Sent from the free throw line
    Follow me on Twitter@DrewGarrisonSBN

    Comment

    • ybtherockstar
      Rookie
      • Jan 2010
      • 444

      #92
      Re: #8 Kobe>

      Originally posted by Drewski
      The thing about Kobe - he takes shots he can make, albeit being overly difficlut. Because he can make them. He knows it, the D knows it, and we know it. He could pass some of those tough looks up, but generally he takes them beccause there's a pretty good chance it'll drop despite being a terrible shot to take. That said, I've cringed time and time again at his shot selection. I wish he'd take easier shots, not that it's easy to work against defenses geared to slow you down, but still...
      I agree. When we say Kobe takes too many bad shots, the thing is that he makes a lot of those shots. I think he may be the best ever at making the most difficult shots. But he is too good of a player to not have shot at least 48% at least once in a season.

      Comment

      • The15thunter
        MVP
        • Mar 2003
        • 1639

        #93
        Re: #8 Kobe>

        #8 probably lacked the maturity and disciplined approach to lead his team to titles like #24 has, but he was still a hall-of-famer. i don't think you can argue that.
        xbox gt - bmorerep87

        Comment

        • The15thunter
          MVP
          • Mar 2003
          • 1639

          #94
          Re: #8 Kobe>

          Originally posted by Sam Marlowe
          ^^^
          The 2004 Piston gameplan was arranged around KB's shot selection. They conceded Shaq his points and banked on KB not adjusting his approach with multiple defenders attacking him (aside from Tayshaun Prince doing a hell of a job in single coverage). Larry Brown's gamble payed off. KB is arguably the best player of his generation (Shaq and Duncan are ahead of him in my book but Im not rigid) and thats where it stops.

          Also, consider this. When Jordan made that comeback with the Wizards his performence was considered by most to be sub par at best. His numbers were something like 25 5 and 6 on 45 % shooting. Those are KB's career regular season averages. Kind of puts things in perspective.
          while i agree that the piston's gameplan was very effective, we also need to realize that the laker team wasn't as good as we had hoped it would be, considering the roster. malone was washed up and injured in that series. payton was on his last legs and was a horrible fit for the system. devean george was their small forward.

          but i won't skirt the issue, kobe shot poorly in the series. however, there was no one else on the team that could help shaq, anyway. concede shaq's points, make kobe take tough shots, and let anyone else shoot. that was a winning strategy, for sure, but this was the first time it ever worked against the lakers in the finals.

          and jordan's comeback was subpar because it tarnished his legacy, given the celebrated fact he exited in the best way possible. coming back a shell of himself athletically hurt a lot of hearts and imaginations, though i don't view it that way.

          jordan's averages in washington: 21.45 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.5 apg on 43% shooting. nowhere near kobe's career averages, especially if you throw out his first 2 seasons (could argue for the third, since it was the lockout season, but i digress).
          xbox gt - bmorerep87

          Comment

          • wwharton
            *ll St*r
            • Aug 2002
            • 26949

            #95
            Re: #8 Kobe>

            Originally posted by jeebs9
            I'm confused... It sounds like you agree with us wwharton.
            yes but...

            Originally posted by Drewski
            I think he agrees, but I think he disagrees that it's an indictment on Kobe. As in, Jordan did it, can we really expect someone else to achieve that?

            /speaking for WWH while bored at work
            ... exactly. I think expecting a "shooting" guard (in the true sense of the term) who is the focal point of the offense to shoot over 50% for an entire season is setting the bar too high.

            Criticizing Kobe for taking bad shots is fine, but don't forget that in all the unnecessary forces (that went in more than most any other player) there were plenty of shots over double and triple teams that were necessary for the Lakers to be competitive. I'm not defending Kobe's shot selection, but in contrast, how long have we talked about the shots Lebron passed up in the finals? And looking at it from another perspective, if Kobe did shoot over 50% would those still be considered bad shots? Really, 50% is VERY high for a jump shooter that often gets double teamed and/or the best defender and generally has to create his own shot.

            Comment

            • jeebs9
              Fear is the Unknown
              • Oct 2008
              • 47568

              #96
              Re: #8 Kobe>

              Look at the shots MJ is getting!

              <IFRAME height=349 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ju_rG3DtBnM" frameBorder=0 width=425 allowfullscreen></IFRAME>

              One of my favorite
              <iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BC5sW1Xnj3g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
              Last edited by jeebs9; 07-07-2011, 02:30 PM.
              Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQo

              Comment

              • Sam Marlowe
                Banned
                • Aug 2010
                • 1230

                #97
                Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                15ThHunher,KB's career numbers are 25 5 and 5 on 45% shooting. So if by "nowhere near" you actually mean "pretty damn near" I'll have to agree with you. Also, why should he be given a pass for not being good enough to play in his first year or two? LBJ came in out of high school to. Its a testement to KB that he went from where he was to arguably the best in the game at his peak. Especially when he had guys like Vince Carter and TMac who were more gifted athletically than he was.

                On a different note, one thing that Jordan perfected that guys like KB and LBJ aren't skilled at is moving without the ball to create good looks at the basket. That skill is one reason MJ was able to shoot such a high percentage and produce at a decent level as a 40 year old.

                Comment

                • wwharton
                  *ll St*r
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 26949

                  #98
                  Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                  Jeebs I don't know what your point is.

                  Comment

                  • jeebs9
                    Fear is the Unknown
                    • Oct 2008
                    • 47568

                    #99
                    Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                    Originally posted by wwharton
                    Jeebs I don't know what your point is.
                    I just threw up a video I was watching. Had nothing to do with what we were talking about lol...Sorry.
                    Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQo

                    Comment

                    • jeebs9
                      Fear is the Unknown
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 47568

                      #100
                      Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                      Originally posted by Sam Marlowe
                      15ThHunher,KB's career numbers are 25 5 and 5 on 45% shooting. So if by "nowhere near" you actually mean "pretty damn near" I'll have to agree with you. Also, why should he be given a pass for not being good enough to play in his first year or two? LBJ came in out of high school to. Its a testement to KB that he went from where he was to arguably the best in the game at his peak. Especially when he had guys like Vince Carter and TMac who were more gifted athletically than he was.

                      On a different note, one thing that Jordan perfected that guys like KB and LBJ aren't skilled at is moving without the ball to create good looks at the basket. That skill is one reason MJ was able to shoot such a high percentage and produce at a decent level as a 40 year old.
                      That is one part of his game I love. You rarely saw Jordan isolating during the second come back (maybe on the block). He knew his spots and all the counters to those spots like the back of his hand. But not to go over board on this. But man how did Jordan get so open on some of those shots
                      Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQo

                      Comment

                      • The15thunter
                        MVP
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 1639

                        #101
                        Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                        Originally posted by Sam Marlowe
                        15ThHunher,KB's career numbers are 25 5 and 5 on 45% shooting. So if by "nowhere near" you actually mean "pretty damn near" I'll have to agree with you. Also, why should he be given a pass for not being good enough to play in his first year or two? LBJ came in out of high school to. Its a testement to KB that he went from where he was to arguably the best in the game at his peak. Especially when he had guys like Vince Carter and TMac who were more gifted athletically than he was.

                        On a different note, one thing that Jordan perfected that guys like KB and LBJ aren't skilled at is moving without the ball to create good looks at the basket. That skill is one reason MJ was able to shoot such a high percentage and produce at a decent level as a 40 year old.
                        1. he's about 4 points away.
                        2. if you take out the seasons he didn't play meaningful minutes and focus on the years he was actually kobe bryant, it's a different picture. that's my point. i understand what his career averages are, but they included almost 200 games prior to him being "the real" kobe bryant.
                        xbox gt - bmorerep87

                        Comment

                        • jeebs9
                          Fear is the Unknown
                          • Oct 2008
                          • 47568

                          #102
                          Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                          The college experience was so valuable to Jordan. It would of done wonders if Kobe went to Duke. I mean for his overall career (early on). Jordan came in and took over the league. Who won rookie of the year during Kobe rookie year? (Was it Allen Iverson?)
                          Last edited by jeebs9; 07-07-2011, 03:25 PM.
                          Hands Down....Man Down - 2k9 memories
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IHP_5GUBQo

                          Comment

                          • Drewski
                            Basketball Reasons
                            • Jun 2011
                            • 3783

                            #103
                            Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                            Originally posted by The15thunter
                            2. if you take out the seasons he didn't play meaningful minutes and focus on the years he was actually kobe bryant, it's a different picture. that's my point. i understand what his career averages are, but they included almost 200 games prior to him being "the real" kobe bryant.
                            I took a quick look at those numbers from year one and two, you'll get minimal differences in career numbers, but I'll give you his career point avergae jumps up two points.
                            Follow me on Twitter@DrewGarrisonSBN

                            Comment

                            • Drewski
                              Basketball Reasons
                              • Jun 2011
                              • 3783

                              #104
                              Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                              Originally posted by jeebs9
                              The college experience was so valuable to Jordan. It would of done wonders if Kobe went to Duke. I mean for his overall career (early on). Jordan came in and took over the league. Who won rookie of the year during Kobe rookie year? (Was it Allen Iverson?)
                              It was Iverson.
                              Follow me on Twitter@DrewGarrisonSBN

                              Comment

                              • wwharton
                                *ll St*r
                                • Aug 2002
                                • 26949

                                #105
                                Re: #8 Kobe&gt;

                                Originally posted by jeebs9
                                I just threw up a video I was watching. Had nothing to do with what we were talking about lol...Sorry.
                                Gotcha. No worries, thanks for the video. Just confused me for a bit but still good for the discussion.

                                Originally posted by jeebs9
                                The college experience was so valuable to Jordan. It would of done wonders if Kobe went to Duke. I mean for his overall career (early on). Jordan came in and took over the league. Who won rookie of the year during Kobe rookie year? (Was it Allen Iverson?)
                                Jordan also came in more in a Lebron situation. As much as Kobe would've benefited from going to college, he also had the advantage of coming into a pretty much perfect situation. And we can definitely say that if Kobe played 3 or 4 years in college, he would've gone much higher in the draft (and wouldn't have been a Laker). The question is does Kobe become closer to Jordan by following a similar path, or does it make it harder to become what he's done to this day bc of added pressure he would've had from day one?

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