Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

[slimm44]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I was waiting for the Denver turnaround in Melo's rookie year would come up. Durant's rookie season was abysmal. You would think given that he's so much better than Melo according to Bumi, he would have led his team to more than 20 and 23 wins in his first two seasons.

Durant had NOBODY his rookie year and put up 20.3, 4.4, and 2.4, pretty good for a rookie. His shooting percentages were only 43 and 28, which is low. Jeff Green (a rookie), Chris Wilcox, and Earl Watson were their other regular starters. That's not a supporting cast, that's a turd and cheese sandwich, hold the cheese.

Carmelo had Nene, Camby, Miller, and Voshon Leanard as regular starters. Not great, but compare it to the list above. Yikes. Carmelo put up 21, 6.1, and 2.8 his rookie year, slightly better than Durant's numbers, especially the rebounding. He shot 42% and 32%, respectively. Decent 3pt% for a rook, but not very efficient from the field yet. Again, expected for a rookie.

Even as rookies, their numbers were comparable. Carmelo had a better supporting cast. It's not a landslide by any means, but I'll say Denver had a better team without Melo than Seattle did without Durant but Melo had a slightly better rookie season.

Durant had a very good 2nd season. His shooting percentages came up, he grew in confidence, and he played much better. Green (2nd year) and Westbrook (rookie) were the only other regular starters with Wilcox, Collison, Sefalosha (2nd year), Kristic, Earl Weaver, and Watson sharing spot starts and contributing to the rotation. That's still crapola.

Melo's second season was marginally better than his first in FG% but his rebounding numbers took a hit, mainly because they added K-Mart at the 4. Melo had a regular starting lineup of Miller, Camby, and K-Mart with Greg Buckner and Dermarr Johnson shariing time at the 2 with Nene coming off the bench. Again, compare that to OKC and tell me which you would rather have.

I stand by my choice in Durant, but it's not as big of a talent or production gap as some may think. I would go to war with either of them as my starting 3.

[Drewski]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I stand by my choice in Durant, but it's not as big of a talent or production gap as some may think. I would go to war with either of them as my starting 3.

Pretty much this. While I know we're debating to see who the better player is, at the end of the day it's very close and I'd love to have either of those guys playing for my team.

[slimm44]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

So where does the fact that Melo lead a 19 win team to 43 wins and the playoffis his rookie year, but Durant couldn't post a winning record till his 3rd year in the league, AFTER the Thunder loaded up in 2009, fit in?

When were the Nuggets favored to win ANY series aside from 2008 when they went to the WCF? That's right, never.

The teammate comparison isn't even close, so we can dead that right now. Durant's first 2 playoff teams >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melo's first 2.

They didn't load up, they grew as players and a team. They landed 0 impact free agents, but Green, Westbrook, and Thabo developed and they got Harden (who underachieved) and Ibaka (incredibly raw but crazy intense on D) in the draft. Maybe it's word usage, but I don't see them loading up at all, I see them gelling, growing in chemistry, and developing. Miami loaded up this past offseason. Huge difference.

[Drewski]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

They didn't load up, they grew as players and a team. They landed 0 impact free agents, but Green, Westbrook, and Thabo developed and they got Harden (who underachieved) and Ibaka (incredibly raw but crazy intense on D) in the draft. Maybe it's word usage, but I don't see them loading up at all, I see them gelling, growing in chemistry, and developing. Miami loaded up this past offseason. Huge difference.

Yeah... loading up isn't the right word there. Can't knock OKC, or Durant, for OKC drafting smart and putting pieces together through pretty much... only the draft. Who's the last big name FA to sign with them? Yeah, I thought so too. Just from here, Durant seems more like one of the guys, while Melo seems to standalone. Chalk that up under intangibles, I guess.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I was waiting for the Denver turnaround in Melo's rookie year would come up. Durant's rookie season was abysmal. You would think given that he's so much better than Melo according to Bumi, he would have led his team to more than 20 and 23 wins in his first two seasons.

Yep. Seattle didn't purposely tank(gifting Ray Allen to the Celtics) in order to put themselves in a position to rebuild through the draft. Despite even this, Durant has still accomplished in two post seasons what Melo has accomplished in eight.

So now we knock players for losing to better/favored teams in the postseason?


This is getting embarrassing.

I agree. Melo has absolutely no advantage here, yet people continue to tout his horn despite him having absolutely no case. Whether it's defensively, offensively, regular season or post season success. He falls short in pretty much every comparison. And that's not to say Melo isn't a great player, because he is. I have him in my top 10 ahead of Rose and Kobe, right outside of my top 10. But in this particular comparison, he falls short. That's all there is to it.

Also, has it ever occurred to any of you, that part of the reason Melo's teams aren't ever favored in the playoffs(even though they are, last season for example), is because Melo is on the team?

Here's your statement when people brought-up Denver plays 0 defense. If Denver plays defense why make this statement?

I take it, in your world, there is no middle ground between "very good" and "bad"? Because there is in mine. "Solid", for example. Seems appropriate.

How much better could they have gotten, if they were 21st in the league

Have you seen Melo play defense?

So where does the fact that Melo lead a 19 win team to 43 wins and the playoffis his rookie year, but Durant couldn't post a winning record till his 3rd year in the league, AFTER the Thunder loaded up in 2009, fit in?

09-10 was Durant's third year. So, OKC "loaded" up the year they went to the playoffs. Though, "loaded up" seems to teeter on the line of hyperbole. Unless we're employing that description to describe every team that chooses to rebuild through the draft. Cleveland, for example. Did they just "load" up? Are they primed for post season success? I doubt it. They'll probably be in the same place next season(the lottery).

Secondly, it obviously doesn't matter how long it took Durant to turn his franchise around. With a third of Melo's post season experience, he's already matched his success(Posted better numbers doing it). From the looks of it, he'll probably surpass him in that area(as he's already surpassed him in most) as soon as next season.

When were the Nuggets favored to win ANY series aside from 2008 when they went to the WCF? That's right, never.

Utah. 09-10. Lost in 6 games.

The teammate comparison isn't even close, so we can dead that right now. Durant's first 2 playoff teams >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melo's first 2.

Why limit it to Melo's first two teams? He's had 8 years(in which he played in the playoffs), 6 more years than Durant, and has reached the same successes.

We all very well knew that the 2 guard from UCLA, who played 3rd fiddle to Kevin Love and Darren Collison, would blossom into an All-NBA point guard. No one thought that pick was a stretch at #4. And in his first All Star season, he's definitely better than former NBA champion Chauncey Billups, and even that Allen Iverson guy.

And that Serge Ibaka guy, the 24th pick? The 21 year old? The one whose been playing organized ball for all of 5 years? Well, lets just say we all seen his impact coming. It was obvious. And even more obvious, are the marked advantages he holds over Nene Hilario.

And that James Harden kid, who comes off the bench for OKC, and whose only logged meaningful minutes sine the departure of Jeff Green(Meaning, less than half the season)? Well, people weren't thinking he was a disappointment up until recently. No one second guessed the pick, claiming Steph Curry and Tyreke Evans should have been picked over him. Also, he's significantly better than J.R. Smith.

[1Rose]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

09-10 was Durant's third year. So, OKC "loaded" up the year they went to the playoffs. Though, "loaded up" seems to teeter on the line of hyperbole. Unless we're employing that description to describe every team that chooses to rebuild through the draft. Cleveland, for example. Did they just "load" up? Are they primed for post season success? I doubt it. They'll probably be in the same place next season(the lottery).

No, that's not what that means. But they acquired Harden, Maynor and Ibaka, all of whom are major factors on that OKC team. But maybe then in your eyes the West was weaker then if it allowed that team, that apparently wasn't "loaded" to win 50 and games and to get to the playoffs?

What does that say about Durant then? Both him and Melo came in on lottery teams. One affected his team and one didn't until they drafted more talented players. With this statement, you are pretty much indicting yourself.

Utah. 09-10. Lost in 6 games.

So, one time in 7 years? Not quite the strongest argument, but ok.

Why limit it to Melo's first two teams?

Umm, because Durant's only been to the playoffs twice? Thought that was evident and fair to the discussion. If I would of limited it to the ACTUAL first two teams, then Durant wouldn't have even won the amount of games Melo had won his first year in the league. Also evident is how much better Durant's teams where to allow him to have that success.

[wwharton]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

As for the debate, I think there is a difference between who's better and who I'd rather have on my team. And even taking attitude, work ethic, etc. out of the equation I'd rather have Durant on my team. Simply speaking, I'd rather build a team that works well together than build around a single player. Neither of these guys are going to be Jordan, neither are physical freaks like Shaq, and though Durant has the height to be a freak in terms of his game for someone that tall to do things like Dirk, that's far from who he is right now. So building "around" either doesn't seem like the best idea. Durant's game is better suited to creating a great team that he can comfortably fit into. Melo's game seems better suited with a team that compliments his personal skills.

But if I'm looking at who's the better individual player RIGHT NOW, it's a very close call but I'd probably go with Carmelo. They are both very skilled in many ways but Carmelo seems more confident in maximizing his talent (offensively) while Durant seems more efficient. The efficiency is more attractive in a team aspect, but the situations where a superstar needs to step up and make a play leans more to Melo's strengths. This is probably why it's a good assumption that Durant will be better, bc this is probably due somewhat to age and experience (and some due to attitude) but we're talking about today.

Thought about it. Can't think of too many excuses involved in my case for Durant. Point out specifics if you wish.

For Melo? Well, now his teammates were trash.

I'm not going to get in the middle of a debate with you bc it is pretty annoying how condescending you've been in many of these posts... even more so when people paying close attention can see the flaws in many of your arguments. Stats do lie, and with you obvious ability to manipulate them, I'm positive you know that. So in response to the quoted post, you've made many "excuses" masked behind specific stats.

For example, you seem to freely go between career stats, this year's stats, Melo's stats on the Knicks or any other subset that best supports your argument at the time. You've even thrown in your own assumption of why Durant hasn't been up to par in certain situations when necessary. You'll say "Melo's been in the league for years so why only look at the first 2 or 3" but then focus only on the handful of games he played on the Knicks in another situation. You ignored Melo's higher 3pt% (bc we all know Durant is a better 3pt shooter) but then harp on Durant's % close to the basket (even though everyone but you knows Melo is a better weapon attacking the rim).

If anyone took all the stats you've posted in this thread alone, they could make a clear case of how stats can lie. But it doesn't even need to be that complicated. These players have such different styles of play that simply comparing their stats OBVIOUSLY can't tell the whole story. Not to mention, the goal is to win. If Durant has a team with few rebounders, he may push to attack the glass more. If he's got great spot up shooters, he may pass up tough jumpers that he probably can make when a double team comes. There are plenty of variables that can lower personal stats to increase a team's chance of winning. Nothing is in a vacuum, and looking at things in such a way will never accurately determine one player being better than another.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Stats do lie, and with you obvious ability to manipulate them, I'm positive you know that. So in response to the quoted post, you've made many "excuses" masked behind specific stats.

Not in this case. They depict, very clearly, who the better player is. And no, I haven't made any "excuses". I've adapted my argument to those presented. That is it, that is all.

For example, you seem to freely go between career stats, this year's stats, Melo's stats on the Knicks or any other subset that best supports your argument at the time.

Take either of their stats of the last three years. Durant comes out on top every year. There's hardly any "manipulation" in that. Whether it's this years stats, last years stats, career stats, playoff stats, collegiate stats(Though, Melo won a chip), or otherwise, stats clearly paint Durant as the better player. And, in my opinion, that's reflected in their success as players, and what we see every night on the court.

You've even thrown in your own assumption of why Durant hasn't been up to par in certain situations when necessary. You'll say "Melo's been in the league for years so why only look at the first 2 or 3" but then focus only on the handful of games he played on the Knicks in another situation.

I can't think of any area where Durant hasn't been up to par in comparison to Melo? You're going to have to give specific instances.

You ignored Melo's higher 3pt% (bc we all know Durant is a better 3pt shooter) but then harp on Durant's % close to the basket (even though everyone but you knows Melo is a better weapon attacking the rim).

Nope, didn't ignore Melo's superior 3pt% this season. I gave him the nod there, and the percentile or two advantage he had from mid range. That's about it though, as they were the only statistical advantages he owned. Which, more or less meant very little, as Durant was still significantly more efficient as an overall scorer.

If anyone took all the stats you've posted in this thread alone, they could make a clear case of how stats can lie.

Not sure how. Stats paint Durant as the better player. Seems like a widely held opinion outside of these forums.

But it doesn't even need to be that complicated. These players have such different styles of play that simply comparing their stats OBVIOUSLY can't tell the whole story. Not to mention, the goal is to win.

And Durant is on track to do more of that than Melo has done in his career.

If Durant has a team with few rebounders, he may push to attack the glass more. If he's got great spot up shooters, he may pass up tough jumpers that he probably can make when a double team comes. There are plenty of variables that can lower personal stats to increase a team's chance of winning. Nothing is in a vacuum, and looking at things in such a way will never accurately determine one player being better than another.

[wwharton]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Not in this case. They depict, very clearly, who the better player is. And no, I haven't made any "excuses". I've adapted my argument to those presented. That is it, that is all.



Take either of their stats of the last three years. Durant comes out on top every year. There's hardly any "manipulation" in that. Whether it's this years stats, last years stats, career stats, playoff stats, collegiate stats(Though, Melo won a chip), or otherwise, stats clearly paint Durant as the better player. And, in my opinion, that's reflected in their success as players, and what we see every night on the court.



I can't think of any area where Durant hasn't been up to par in comparison to Melo? You're going to have to give specific instances.



Nope, didn't ignore Melo's superior 3pt% this season. I gave him the nod there, and the percentile or two advantage he had from mid range. That's about it though, as they were the only statistical advantages he owned. Which, more or less meant very little, as Durant was still significantly more efficient as an overall scorer.



Not sure how. Stats paint Durant as the better player. Seems like a widely held opinion outside of these forums.



And Durant is on track to do more of that than Melo has done in his career.

Have fun with all of that. I've said my piece. It won't change no matter how many times you write "stats" in a post.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Have fun with all of that. I've said my piece. It won't change no matter how many times you write "stats" in a post.

Fair enough. And Melo being an inferior player to Durant wont change regardless of how many times people claim their eyes tell them otherwise.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

As for the debate, I think there is a difference between who's better and who I'd rather have on my team. And even taking attitude, work ethic, etc. out of the equation I'd rather have Durant on my team. Simply speaking, I'd rather build a team that works well together than build around a single player. Neither of these guys are going to be Jordan, neither are physical freaks like Shaq, and though Durant has the height to be a freak in terms of his game for someone that tall to do things like Dirk, that's far from who he is right now. So building "around" either doesn't seem like the best idea. Durant's game is better suited to creating a great team that he can comfortably fit into. Melo's game seems better suited with a team that compliments his personal skills.

But if I'm looking at who's the better individual player RIGHT NOW, it's a very close call but I'd probably go with Carmelo. They are both very skilled in many ways but Carmelo seems more confident in maximizing his talent (offensively) while Durant seems more efficient. The efficiency is more attractive in a team aspect, but the situations where a superstar needs to step up and make a play leans more to Melo's strengths. This is probably why it's a good assumption that Durant will be better, bc this is probably due somewhat to age and experience (and some due to attitude) but we're talking about today.



I'm not going to get in the middle of a debate with you bc it is pretty annoying how condescending you've been in many of these posts... even more so when people paying close attention can see the flaws in many of your arguments. Stats do lie, and with you obvious ability to manipulate them, I'm positive you know that. So in response to the quoted post, you've made many "excuses" masked behind specific stats.

For example, you seem to freely go between career stats, this year's stats, Melo's stats on the Knicks or any other subset that best supports your argument at the time. You've even thrown in your own assumption of why Durant hasn't been up to par in certain situations when necessary. You'll say "Melo's been in the league for years so why only look at the first 2 or 3" but then focus only on the handful of games he played on the Knicks in another situation. You ignored Melo's higher 3pt% (bc we all know Durant is a better 3pt shooter) but then harp on Durant's % close to the basket (even though everyone but you knows Melo is a better weapon attacking the rim).

If anyone took all the stats you've posted in this thread alone, they could make a clear case of how stats can lie. But it doesn't even need to be that complicated. These players have such different styles of play that simply comparing their stats OBVIOUSLY can't tell the whole story. Not to mention, the goal is to win. If Durant has a team with few rebounders, he may push to attack the glass more. If he's got great spot up shooters, he may pass up tough jumpers that he probably can make when a double team comes. There are plenty of variables that can lower personal stats to increase a team's chance of winning. Nothing is in a vacuum, and looking at things in such a way will never accurately determine one player being better than another.

You are a superstar wwharton.

[ehh]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

You are a superstar wwharton.

We better check with Bumi's 'message-board posting' efficiency stats to justify your claim. Your eyes may have been lying to you when you read wwharton's post.

[wwharton]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Fair enough. And Melo being an inferior player to Durant wont change regardless of how many times people claim their eyes tell them otherwise.

This is a really immature response... it's this debate's version of "I know you are but what am I."

I'm sure you'll come back by saying my response to didn't offer anything but I said previously I'm not doing the back and forth thing... and I don't really need to. I agree with most of the posts that have been going against you already here and you're just rehashing your numbers over and over so there isn't more for me to contribute.

And I'll also add that, my response to the original topic can be interpret as Durant is a better player depending on how you're basing it (and the way you've been looking at it, it would support him being the better of the two) but that doesn't matter, considering your response was supposed to be some kind of middle school shot at me.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

This is a really immature response... it's this debate's version of "I know you are but what am I."

I'm sure you'll come back by saying my response to didn't offer anything but I said previously I'm not doing the back and forth thing... and I don't really need to. I agree with most of the posts that have been going against you already here and you're just rehashing your numbers over and over so there isn't more for me to contribute.

And I'll also add that, my response to the original topic can be interpret as Durant is a better player depending on how you're basing it (and the way you've been looking at it, it would support him being the better of the two) but that doesn't matter, considering your response was supposed to be some kind of middle school shot at me.

Not really a middle school shot per say, merely restating the single truth in this thread. Durant's superiority.

[mKoz26]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Not really a middle school shot per say, merely restating the single truth in this thread. Durant's superiority.

...and this is why nobody will debate with you.

Gotta flaunt that e-peen.