Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I think it's fine to criticize the way that Durant has closed out postseason games in the past, but we're seeing Durant really take the next step in his career this year IMO, so I want to see how he plays in the postseason this time around. I remember a couple years in a row Durant had a big tendency to sit in the corner at the ends of games and let Westbrook handle things, let himself get pushed out to well beyond his range trying to get the ball, etc. He was very passive in recent years in the playoffs when OKC was trying to close games out.

But yeah, I think he'll put those concerns to rest this year.

Edit: And I don't blame him at all for last year's exit from the playoffs. To have Westbrook go down is a huge blow. It's not like they had time to be prepared to play without him either.

[OkayC]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

No not one game that was the series in the last 4 mins of each game

Still, the dude had to learn to carry his team without westbrook in a playoff situation, which is something he hadnt done before. Considering he played a bunch of minutes and shot the ball a gang of times throught the game. Its fair too expect drop off at the end of a game when he is tired.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

OJ, what's so advanced about being efficient? Because that's basically been the knock on Melo throughout his career.

Because we look far into things like FG% and eFG% and try to directly relate that to how efficient a player is. Even PER which is a good overall stat but its not really a strong way to evaluate offense and scoring only as it includes rebounds and defensive stats. When trying to nitpick I think these are good stats but just as far as labeling one player efficient or inefficient I think it's flawed.

I know Melo has his moments of bad shot selection but what perimeter scorer hasn't? If you look at past great wing scorers percentages; he's right up there if not ahead of Kobe, T-Mac, Iverson. Then the past players like Richmond, Pippen, Drexler, Nique, Reggie, even Larry Bird isn't tons better percentage wise for most of his career. Scorers like Dantley, English, Erving, guys who did most of their scoring closer to the basket maintained substantially better percentages but that's expected. They rarely settled for jumpers or took outside shots. But even in today's league, he's right on par with guys like Curry, Harden, and George.

The only great perimeter scorers who were able to maintain much better percentages for an extended time were Jordan and Gervin... That I could find at least. Both having many seasons up well above 50%... And now LeBron is at that point.

But even in comparison to Durant their career numbers percentage wise aren't apart by much. And this season only around 5-6%ish different on FG%. 44.7 for Melo, 50.7 for Durant.

Which looks to be a large difference but is it really? We seem to hold 50% to be the high standard of what a great effective scorer should have as a percentage. Around that 50% seems to set the bar for efficiency. But what does that actually mean in a real game? Lets say player A shoots 44% from the field and player B shoots 49%. Both elite scores, both attempting 21 shots per game. What's the difference in the two? Player A makes roughly 9 shots per game, player be makes roughly 10 shots per game... That's its, just a one shot difference. Is one shot enough for us to consider guys like Melo, Iverson, etc to be inefficient scorers and label players who stay close to that 50% elite efficient scorers?

In career wise the margin for the two is even closer. 45.5% Melo and 47.8% Durant. We are letting like a half a shot made difference label one player as a career inefficient chucker and the other as one of the most efficient scorers we have ever saw. Even if you are an advanced stats guy their eFG% and TS% aren't separated by very large margins.

What I meant by the original post you quoted is that we don't look back on those other great scorers, like the guys I mentioned, as anything but great players and great scorers. The majority of them we don't call chuckers or ball hogs, or black holes, or inefficient players. Lots of them with just as many or more shot attempts and just as bad or worse percentages.

And when it comes to Melo it seems people are quick to label him as a far worse player than he should be. I saw many people throwing him off their top 10 players in the league currently.. Would they ever have done that to Kobe? No but Kobe was also a good defender and a championship winner.... But the fact that we say Durant is the second best player in the league and catching up to LeBron but then leave Melo off our top 10, that's just mind blowing to me.

And I rank Durant above Melo, I think he's more efficient, and I think he has better shot selection. But it's really not the huge gap that people want it to be. Both are good rebounders as SFs, neither great. Both are average passers, both average defenders except that Durant at least consistently gives effort there. But despite the bad label Melo gets Durant is not any more of a willing passer. Both have similar shot attempt numbers and assist numbers throughout their careers, and we just had an article posted here not long ago that showed how often players shot or passed the ball per position. Remember the thread? Durant was the first superstar on the list for players who shot when they got the ball.

So I guess I'm confused as to what people who say Durant is getting up there with LeBron yet Melo isn't a top player are seeing that I'm not? Because 1 shot of better efficiency isn't enough for me to back that claim at all. Even though I put Durant over Melo myself.

[ehh]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Still, the dude had to learn to carry his team without westbrook in a playoff situation, which is something he hadnt done before. Considering he played a bunch of minutes and shot the ball a gang of times throught the game. Its fair too expect drop off at the end of a game when he is tired.

This is basically the story of Carmelo's playoff career in NY, though even without Westbrook Durant still had a superior supporting cast.

[ojandpizza]

Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

This is basically the story of Carmelo's playoff career in NY, though even without Westbrook Durant still had a superior supporting cast.

Which is why I hate "Melo takes more bad shots" statements and "Durant's shots come within the flow of the offense" statements.

To an extent that's true, but Durant has Westbrook who gets him open looks. He has an all around good defensive team, they get stops and turn it in to offense. They make up for any defensive mistake he might make. And Westbrook is a monster at getting turnovers. Those turnovers end up being easy and open transition shots for Durant. Which not only help his percentages but also get him warmed up and going for the rest of the game.

He has better shooters to kick to, which he rarely does. He's had Harden, Martin, Lamb, and even Ibaka has improved as a kick out option. Westbrook creates him easier looks with constant attacking and Jackson has filled his absence perfectly. Which is a large part as to why more of his shots come within the "flow" of the offense. Even though they don't really have an offense, he's in a position to get better looks and better shots.

Chandler is the only teammate of Melo's who can probably even spell the word defense. They don't get easy transition looks because they are always pulling the ball out of the net after letting the other team score. He has nobody to create looks for him, and his best option as a side kick if one of the most streaky shooting 6th men in the league who has the mentality of a top 3 NBA talent.

I don't know how things like this aren't obvious to people who see the both play. Nearly everything Melo gets is from him having to catch the ball and after multiple fakes and jabs get a shot. From start to finish its like this for him. Durant's looks come earlier and easier, and even the shots he creates for himself are often when they are in transition and the defense hasn't had a chance to get set. So he either attacks or crossover pull-up.

I would just love to see the each on the opposite team. I would still think Durant would be the better player, and agree with posters here that he works harder to improve other areas of his game and has a better basketball IQ. But I think people's opinion of the two would change BIG TIME.

[OkayC]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Which is why I hate "Melo takes more bad shots" statements and "Durant's shots come within the flow of the offense" statements.

To an extent that's true, but Durant has Westbrook who gets him open looks. He has an all around good defensive team, they get stops and turn it in to offense. They make up for any defensive mistake he might make. And Westbrook is a monster at getting turnovers. Those turnovers end up being easy and open transition shots for Durant. Which not only help his percentages but also get him warmed up and going for the rest of the game.

He has better shooters to kick to, which he rarely does. He's had Harden, Martin, Lamb, and even Ibaka has improved as a kick out option. Westbrook creates him easier looks with constant attacking and Jackson has filled his absence perfectly. Which is a large part as to why more of his shots come within the "flow" of the offense. Even though they don't really have an offense, he's in a position to get better looks and better shots.

Chandler is the only teammate of Melo's who can probably even spell the word defense. They don't get easy transition looks because they are always pulling the ball out of the net after letting the other team score. He has nobody to create looks for him, and his best option as a side kick if one of the most streaky shooting 6th men in the league who has the mentality of a top 3 NBA talent.

I don't know how things like this aren't obvious to people who see the both play. Nearly everything Melo gets is from him having to catch the ball and after multiple fakes and jabs get a shot. From start to finish its like this for him. Durant's looks come earlier and easier, and even the shots he creates for himself are often when they are in transition and the defense hasn't had a chance to get set. So he either attacks or crossover pull-up.

I would just love to see the each on the opposite team. I would still think Durant would be the better player, and agree with posters here that he works harder to improve other areas of his game and has a better basketball IQ. But I think people's opinion of the two would change BIG TIME.

I agree with most of what you have said. But why do week keep acting like the knicks are the bobcats while the thunder are the heat talent wise. the only players durant had to kick it to, was harden, and westbrook who is really streaky. Sefalosha could not shoot a respectable percentage until last year, and ibaka really up until the year before last did nothing except dunk. Even then he didn't really develop a completly reliable jumper until last year. And even if i just go off of talent each guys had last year, durant had ibaka and sefalosha and martin to kick it too. Melo had smith, novak, shumpert, felton, copeland, kidd, prigioni, and a few others that he could pass to. I agree with eveything else you said, but lets not act like outside of westbrook, that okc is flowing with talented offensive players or anything. Plus melo has been labeled a chucker even in his days in denver. Granted not as bad, but still labeled as one, and though he didn't have much talent there, he still had a great offensive coach in george karl. Like i said, i agree with most of what you said except, the durant has better shooters part. The only thing i can't argue is talent level of the 2011 teams because i watched neither of these teams that much during that season.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I agree with most of what you have said. But why do week keep acting like the knicks are the bobcats while the thunder are the heat talent wise. the only players durant had to kick it to, was harden, and westbrook who is really streaky. Sefalosha could not shoot a respectable percentage until last year, and ibaka really up until the year before last did nothing except dunk. Even then he didn't really develop a completly reliable jumper until last year. And even if i just go off of talent each guys had last year, durant had ibaka and sefalosha and martin to kick it too. Melo had smith, novak, shumpert, felton, copeland, kidd, prigioni, and a few others that he could pass to. I agree with eveything else you said, but lets not act like outside of westbrook, that okc is flowing with talented offensive players or anything. Plus melo has been labeled a chucker even in his days in denver. Granted not as bad, but still labeled as one, and though he didn't have much talent there, he still had a great offensive coach in george karl. Like i said, i agree with most of what you said except, the durant has better shooters part. The only thing i can't argue is talent level of the 2011 teams because i watched neither of these teams that much during that season.

You're right. Saying shooters was a little much. My intention with the post was just to mean more reliable scoring options. Not necessarily just spot up shooters. Good point with Novak and Copeland. Both great kick out options.

Either way neither Melo or Durant kick the ball often unless somebody is just wide open or they have been cut off defensively or doubled teamed.. But why should they right? Both great scorers and I don't really have a problem with it, they should be shooting on most their possessions.

[OkayC]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

You're right. Saying shooters was a little much. My intention with the post was just to mean more reliable scoring options. Not necessarily just spot up shooters. Good point with Novak and Copeland. Both great kick out options.

Either way neither Melo or Durant kick the ball often unless somebody is just wide open or they have been cut off defensively or doubled teamed.. But why should they right? Both great scorers and I don't really have a problem with it, they should be shooting on most their possessions.

the last sentence of your post is what i want to emphasize for a moment. why should we have a problem with them shooting alot. people used to say westbrook shoots too much and durant needs to shoot more. now that he is, more people have complained about him shooting. yet we here all former basketball players say, your best players should demand the ball and shoot x amount of shots a game. i know three guys on a thursday night show on tnt who emphasize this the most. even with melo, i dont mind him shooting alot, my problem is his shot selection and unwillingness to make his teammates better.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Carmelo Anthony has played the same way, one way, his entire career. He's always been a ball stopper. It's in his DNA. So you can't use the support cast as an excuse as to why he's such a terrible ball stopper and offense staller. Now if you get him with the right coach, maybe it'll improve but Durant's proven that he's a team player since his days at Texas. He doesn't need to hold the ball for 10 seconds+ to be effective.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

That's kind of my point in my other posts though. I don't feel that Melo has an unwillingness to make the players around him better any more so than all the other all time great scorers do. I mean what does he do to have people say that? He's doing the same things other great scorers do or have done. He even does it with a decent assist average. So does Durant.

We had a thread here not long ago showing that Durant shoots more per possession than Melo does. That's not opinionated it's a fact. I believe it was a pass rate percentage, which showed passes per game/touches per game. And the article listed the lowest percentages of passes.. Durant was in the top 10, I think 7th or 8th, while Melo I don't think was even in the top 20.

So even if he does have a little worse shot selection how is he somehow credited as a guy who doesn't make teammates better while other great scorers including Durant don't have that label. We have solid proof that Durant passes less than Melo, I don't get where it comes from.

And again part of the iffy shot selection is do to his teammates, lack of defense, etc. things mentioned in my other post.

But just to question..... Lots of people complain when he, or anybody else, get the ball with say 12 second left on the shot clock and hold it to shoot with a second or 2 left. Obviously if it goes in that's great, if it doesn't it's basically a wasted possession. Or what we call a "bad shot" for holding the ball so long..

But what about when Durant, or a teammate, get a defensive rebound dribble up and Durant pulls a transition jumper with 19-20 seconds left on the shot clock. If it goes in great. If not that's 20 seconds wasted they could have used on a better shot, which again is a wasted possession. Why isn't that considered a bad shot? It's just as much of a wasted possession as the Melo scenario, right?

But yeah, the point is what is there to show that Melo is a ball hog or inefficient while others aren't? Or that he somehow doesn't make his teammates better but Durant and others do even though they pass less?

Is it contested jumpers? Because that doesn't fail to make his teammates better anymore than an open jumper does. And I've already posted on his "inefficient" shooting label and how it's not much different from any other great scorers and even better than lots of them.

This post has nothing at all to do with the Melo vs. Durant topic.. Just trying to figure out where all of the negative labels that surround Melo come from. Because he isn't in a situation to get better looks or more open looks than he currently does, he's not nearly as inefficient as made out to be, and he's not even among the leagues worst in low pass percentages.

Yet he's black hole, ball hog, or bad teammate.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Carmelo Anthony has played the same way, one way, his entire career. He's always been a ball stopper. It's in his DNA. So you can't use the support cast as an excuse as to why he's such a terrible ball stopper and offense staller. Now if you get him with the right coach, maybe it'll improve but Durant's proven that he's a team player since his days at Texas. He doesn't need to hold the ball for 10 seconds+ to be effective.

Because he shoots after 2 seconds. That's the point. His team gets stops and he gets better looks and quicker shots.. Until Melo gets on a team where a guard can get into the lane and break down a defense to get him looks or until he gets on a team that gets stops and runs for transition looks he's going to have to be a guy who gets the ball and creates for himself... What else do you expect him to do?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

You get caught up in assist numbers when you know yourself that assists don't mean much. You can still stall an offense and hold the ball for a majority of the shot clock before finally passing off to a teammate for a bucket. That's not good offense.

Just because Carmelo "passes" doesn't mean he's a team player nor that he's doing the smart thing/being a good teammate. Durant may shoot more or less, that's irrelevant, he's proven he shoots at the right moments rather than not. He's proven he doesn't need to hold onto the basketball for 10 seconds+ to get points.

I'd encourage Melo to shoot til his hand falls off if he goes about those attempts the right way i.e. not having to hold the ball for the entire shot clock.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

You get caught up in assist numbers when you know yourself that assists don't mean much. You can still stall an offense and hold the ball for a majority of the shot clock before finally passing off to a teammate for a bucket. That's not good offense.

Just because Carmelo "passes" doesn't mean he's a team player nor that he's doing the smart thing/being a good teammate. Durant may shoot more or less, that's irrelevant, he's proven he shoots at the right moments rather than not. He's proven he doesn't need to hold onto the basketball for 10 seconds+ to get points.

I'd encourage Melo to shoot til his hand falls off if he goes about those attempts the right way i.e. not having to hold the ball for the entire shot clock.

I wasn't looking at assist numbers. It was a pass rate. And again holding and shooting with 4 seconds left and pulling up with 20 seconds left is still wasting 20 seconds of your shot clock. Neither is worse than the the other one.

Again if Melo had someone to create him looks or a defense to get stops and turnovers he would have the luxury of taking quicker shots.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

How often does Durant pull up with 20 seconds on the shot clock though compared to how often Anthony holds the ball for 10+ seconds and sits there and jab steps aimlessly? Anthony's offense has been predicated on this from day 1.

Since his days in Denver, when he had a lot more talent. I would like to see him with an elite coach to rid him of his bad habits and put him in an actual offense. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that but don't act like he hasn't been playing like that only since he's been a Knick.

[ojandpizza]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Durant - touches per game: 66.3, time of possession per game: 3.2 minutes.

Melo- touches per game: 71.1, time of possession per game 3.5 minutes.

And Melo holds on to the ball longer than Durant?