Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

[Crossover1]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I hate when someone completely relies on stats like its the end all be all. AI is the perfect example. Why because he shot low percentages throughout his career. Stats didnt show how many offensive rebounds he created for the bigs on his team nor how terrible his teammates were offensively (resulting in taking tough shots with multiple defenders on him).

Stats don't let you know how many tough shots Melo took under the rim and then keep puttin back up until he made it, which he is famously known for - and after shooting 3 or 4 times he would finally make it, therefore resulting in a 1/3 or 1/4 attempts. All I'm sayin is that you can use stats in your arguments but don't think that they make player A better than player B, C, etc.

[Las Vegas Ligers]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Would anyone else call Melo's career underachieved so far? His first few seasons in Denver he didn't have that much talent but what about the last 2?

I know George Karl had chemotherapy but he still had the pieces to at least get to finals, which he still hasn't done in his entire career.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Would anyone else call Melo's career underachieved so far? His first few seasons in Denver he didn't have that much talent but what about the last 2?

I know George Karl had chemotherapy but he still had the pieces to at least get to finals, which he still hasn't done in his entire career.

He's never had the best team in the West, so to expect him to have gotten to the Finals is asking a bit much. They've always been inferior to the Lakers, and he got them to the WCF before losing to the Lakers. I think that's really all you could have expected at this point. His teams were in the same boat as LeBron's Cavs in the fact that do you expect them to get to the Finals? No, but did they have a legitimate chance to get to the Finals? Yes.

[Crossover1]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I always said if Nuggets didn't face Jazz or LA (or Spurs that one year they won) they would tear apart any team and reach the finals. I knew the Nuggets (AI/Melo era til pre-carmelo trade) like I did the back of my hands, so I knew who they couldn't beat from who they could.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Would anyone else call Melo's career underachieved so far? His first few seasons in Denver he didn't have that much talent but what about the last 2?

I know George Karl had chemotherapy but he still had the pieces to at least get to finals, which he still hasn't done in his entire career.

It's fair to say he's underachieved. Hasn't he only been outta the first round once?

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

It's fair to say he's underachieved. Hasn't he only been outta the first round once?

I think it's fair to say he's underachieved in the sense that he hasn't given much of an effort towards defense until this year's post-season, but blaming him for only getting Denver out of the first round once or however many times it's been is a little unfair.

Looking at his playoff teams, he took Denver from the 3rd overall pick to a playoff birth in his rookie season, losing in the first round to Garnett's Timberwolves. The 2nd season they only made the post-season because he went bonkers in the last month of the season and led them on a 10-2 streak to end the regular season and they lost to the Spurs, who went on to win the championship. So both of those teams were heavily favored to beat the Nuggets. His 3rd year they lost to the Clippers, who had the better regular season record. Not to mention 2/5 of the Nuggets starting lineup was Eduardo Najera and Greg Buckner...

The next season they ran into the Spurs once again, who were once again the heavily favored team and eventual NBA Champs. The following year they were swept by the Lakers, who were favored in the series and got through the West pretty easily before losing to the Celtics in the championship. The year after was the year Melo finally got the Nuggets over the hump, as he went crazy and carried them past the Hornets and Mavs before losing in 6 to the 65-17 Lakers that went on to win the championship. And then last year it was Nuggets vs. Jazz, who had the same record, and Deron Williams just went absolutely crazy in that series, averaging almost 26 points, over 11 assists per game, shooting 49.4% from the floor and 48% from downtown while also getting to the FT line almost 12 times a game. That was just an incredible stretch from Deron, and that was probably the only time that Melo's team ever lost to a team that they were expected to beat, and even then, I'm not sure people expected them to beat the Jazz so much as they just wanted to see a Nuggets-Lakers rematch again.

The West is so strong year in and year out, to see Melo's team get out of the first round only once while being the underdogs every season isn't that big of a dent on his resume in my opinion.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Good stuff.

The year the lost to the Clippers, was that when KMart went crazy on George Karl?

I guess losing to the eventual champion, or eventual conference champion in the first round softens it just a bit. I can't really hate on him for that.

His winnable first round losses were against LAC and Utah.

In the Utah series he did all he could. Can't hate on his production.

Overall, it's one of the rare cases where only one second round appearance probably isn't underachieving.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

In your opinion.

Opinion? It is a fact.

I really hoped the phrase, "your eyes are lying to you" was never going to make it's way into basketball discussions. Sigh...

Leave that ish in baseball debates.

Or, we can bring it here. Where it seems shockingly appropriate.

I hate when someone completely relies on stats like its the end all be all. AI is the perfect example. Why because he shot low percentages throughout his career. Stats didnt show how many offensive rebounds he created for the bigs on his team nor how terrible his teammates were offensively (resulting in taking tough shots with multiple defenders on him).

There actually are metrics that reflect how poor your teammates are offensively.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

No. There is no stat that says Player A > Player B. Stats are used to help paint a picture, but there is no stat that definitively states that player A > player B as a basketball player.

No, there isn't a singular independent statistic that says Player A > Player B. However, when combined with other statistics they're certainly capable of doing so. Stats don't paint the picture. They clarify it.

Again, why can't Melo have improved his shot? Do you then think the way Durant played in the post-season this year was a fluke based on how much he struggled in his first post-season?

Melo has improved his shot. Doesn't change the fact that nigh every pertinent metric, advanced or basic, is in Durant's favor.

5.4 compared to 3.6 is a much bigger difference than 5 to 4, and Melo averaged 6.6 attempts at the rim over the course of the season.

Doesn't make 66% > 77%

So for example, if player A took 10 uncontested layups, and made all of them, and player B took 10 layups where there was a lot of physical contact but no call was made, and he made 5 of them, would you still say player A must be a better finisher because his efficiency is so much higher? This is why these metrics don't paint the whole picture.

Analyze every shot, and log and collect the data. Then, and only then, will this logic be applicable. At this point, you're speaking hypothetically.

Either way, I honestly don't see how a credible argument can be made in Melo's favor. Durant has consistently finished with higher percentages around the rim than Melo.

But the year before he played terrible, so based on your logic, his consistency is pretty putrid come playoff time.

That isn't my logic. It's yours. I give respect to sample sizes.

So is saying that the numbers would remain the same if Durant attempted the kind of shots that Melo attempts.
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Intelligent guessing. Guessing based on consistency within a large sample size.
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I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I don't want my star scorer taking the majority of his shots from his worst spots on the floor.

I want mine scoring as much as possible, efficiently.

So what this shows is that Melo is more efficient in the clutch even though Durant is more efficient outside of the clutch.

That 1% difference in efficiency(Not even that if you're looking at efg%) is what you noticed? Interesting. I noticed that not only was Durant better than Melo in the clutch, he was significantly better. Both offensively and defensively. Damn those pesky statistics.

And once again, the play is run poorly. In the play against Dallas, Durant never attempts to actually use the screen and instead gets the ball at mid court and gets blocked on a 40 foot shot attempt with 3 seconds left on the clock that he could have used to get a legitimate shot off.

In this example that you provided, he once again shows that he doesn't know how to use the screen, and gets the ball in a poor position to make the play. He ends up taking a bad shot, but thankfully, he is a good shooter and is able to make it. Do you really want Durant taking fall-away 3 pointers to win the game all the time for you? Do you really think that's the most efficient way for him to get a shot?

Ok. Durant doesn't know how to use a screen. Back to the Melo vs. Durant discussion.

Wow.

Tis the truth.

Again, just wow. Melo had an injured Amare, a non-existent Landry Fields, Toney Douglas who played like crap, and Jared Jeffries who couldn't even catch a pass much less make a layup. How can you even compare that to the talent that they have in OKC?

Melo hasn't been to the playoffs 7 other times. Only one of which, can be considered a success.

Did you actually look at Melo's numbers in that post-season? 47% FG% and 46.2% 3PT, 6 rebounds, 5.2 assists, and 1.8 steals in the first round; 49% FG% and 44% 3PT, 6.8 rebounds, 3.4 assists, and 2.2 steals while dealing with foul trouble in the 2nd round; and then he struggled vs. the Lakers, shooting 40.7% FG%, 25% 3PT, 4.8 rebounds, 3.7 assists, and 1.3 steals per game, while once again struggling with foul trouble, but at the same time, his foul shots increased dramatically in this series as well. That's a hell of a playoffs, much like Durant's. Durant shot 47% and 43%, with 5.6 rebounds and 3.6 assists per game and 1 steal per game in the first round; 45% and 33% with 9 rebounds and 1.4 assists and 1 steal per game in the 2nd round; and then he struggled against Dallas in the WCF (like Melo did with the Lakers in his post-season), shooting 43% and 23% with 9.4 rebounds and 4 assists and 1.2 steals. There's no way to say one was better than the other. Both were excellent.

Actually, there is.

29/9/3/.58 TS% > 27/6/4/.56 TS%

Regardless of how good the latter is, the former is superior. That's indisputable.

Dude, Durant didn't average 29 points per game. I don't know where you get that from. His career post-season average is not 29, and neither was his average this season. He averaged like 28.6 points or something. Stop rounding all of his numbers up. There's no point in rounding in these kind of stats. He averaged about 28 and a half points per game.

I can't say for certain. But I'm probably going to keep rounding all the numbers.

27.7/8.0/2.7/.560 TS% > 24.7/7.3/3.1/.521 TS%

&

28/8/3/.56 TS% > 25/7/3/.52 TS%

Either way, Durant's post season averages are superior to Melo's. That would remain true even if the sample were Melo's first two playoff runs, or even his playoff runs at 21 & 22.

[DemiGodzillla]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Your eyes are lying to you. Melo isn't a better rebounder than Durant. You can argue it all you want, that doesn't change what actually happens on the court.

No, your number's are misleading you, Durant isn't a better rebounder than Melo, you can argue it all you want, doesn't change what actually happens on the court.

[slimm44]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

You guys are starting to place the factors influencing production (or your perceived lack thereof) to be more important than the actual production itself. At the end of the day, you want production out of your best players, not qualifiers, excuses, or reasons why something did or didn't happen.

Durant is taller, longer, thinner, probably weaker.
Melo is shorter, shorter, thicker, and probably stronger.

Guess what...it doesn't matter that much. What matters the most is, on the court, they both have roughly the same production. A lot of people are losing sight of that and are putting WAY too much time and energy into proving that their point of view is correct more than anything else. Pretty sure there's a whole other thread for that debate.

Melo takes more shots at the rim than Durant, Durant shoots more jumpers, Melo posts up more, Durant comes off more screens. The only differences you're going to find in actual production are going to be marginal, if not nearly identical.

Words of wisdom - if you're going to have a peeing contest, make sure you don't do it into the wind, otherwise things get messy.

[ehh]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Judging rebounding ability by numbers is the same old story, no matter how "advanced" you get you still don't factor in a variety of things.

1. Defensive assignment the player is given. If Melo or Durant are told to stick tight to a shooter and not sag off they'll rebound less. If they guard a guy who shoots a ton then they'll be challenging more shots and not in a position to rebound as frequently.

2. Transition offense/strategy can effect rebounding numbers.

3. If the player's team defense is subpar they'll be rotating and helping more, thus moving them out of rebounding position.


Again, you can use those stats to say "Player A has a better rebounding percentage than Player B" but that does not mean they are definitively a better rebounder. You need some incredible tunnel-vision to believe that.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

If you judge players by TS% to say who is a better shooter than whom, then you're saying Kevin Durant is a better shooter than Larry Bird, and that Steve Nash is a better shooter than Bird and Ray Allen (and Dirk and Durant too).

I'm curious as to whether Bumi really thinks Durant is a better shooter than Larry Bird.

[1Rose]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Which is why what the eye sees and interprets >>>>> "Advanced" metrics.

You could sit and here and analyze all the numbers and statistics all year long. It doesn't tell the whole story. Basing your incredibly narrow opinion off statistics alone, you're going to have a pretty skewed perception of reality.

I'm with ehh and Yeah on this all the way.

[Drewski]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Well this has been quite the thread. Pretty good discussion across the board. Those who prefer stats lean towards KD, those who prefer eye tend to lean towards Melo, and then there's everything in between.

At the end of the day though, this is what's beautiful about the NBA. It can be discussed up and down, can be quantified, can be picked apart to the smallest nuance. Alot of it, however, comes down to preference. And in this case, Melo vs. Durant, an argument can be made for either player. I honestly don't think there's a wrong answer to be had, it's all in preference and how you feel about the situation.

Think both sides did a great job arguing, I think Bumi's statistical edge to Durant was very fundamentally sound (like Duncan). I think alot of great, non stat, points were made in favor of the Melo Man. Same for Durant. It's hard to conclude A player is better than B, but this is a great way to stir the pot and take alot of things into consideration in regards to them both. Discussion is good, and necessary, in the sports world.

For the record: I would take Durant, though I feel Melo's offensive skill set is more polished.