Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I'm confused by what your asking. If your asking for stats to back up my Melo assertion with one game on the line, over the years on 82games.com has showed that Melo % is significantly higher for game winning shots is higher than anyone else. One shot with the game on the line, give me Melo over anybody.

Melo is clutch. No denying that. I'm referring to the notion that Durant struggles in the clutch, when statistics such as this exist.

Kevin Durant

<table bgcolor="cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="500"> <tbody><tr bgcolor="33cc33"><td><center>Min</center></td> <td><center>Net Pts</center></td> <td><center>Off</center></td> <td><center>Def</center></td> <td><center>Net48</center></td> <td><center>W</center></td> <td><center>L</center></td> <td><center>Win%</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="ffffff"> <td align="center"> 85%</td> <td align="center">+86</td> <td align="center"> 111.5</td> <td align="center"> 92.0</td> <td align="center"> 19.6</td> <td align="center"> 29 </td> <td align="center"> 14 </td> <td><center> 67.4%</center></td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Scoring
<table bgcolor="cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="460"><tbody><tr bgcolor="e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="33cc33" width="60"><center>By</center></td> <td width="50"><center>FG.</center></td> <td width="50"><center>FGA</center></td> <td width="50"><center>FG%</center></td> <td width="50"><center>eFG%</center></td> <td width="50"><center>Ast'd</center></td> <td width="50"><center>Blk'd</center></td> <td width="50"><center>FTM</center></td> <td width="50"><center>Pts</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="ffffff"> <td><center>48 Min</center></td> <td align="right">12.3 </td> <td align="right">30.3 </td> <td align="right">.406 </td> <td align="right">.440 </td> <td align="right"> 57% </td> <td align="right"> 2% </td> <td align="right">17.5 </td> <td align="right">44.2 </td></tr></tbody></table>

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Shooting % is shooting %, now I don't even want to go into this kind of debate, but you can't tell me that shooting % isn't a stat we should be considering. If anything, shooting % is one of the better things to statistically keep in consideration. Especially over careers. Durants career is still very short, but Nash is a pretty full career, and Bird is obviously Bird. Not going to get into who's a better shooter between Nash and Bird, but statistically, while playing in the NBA, Nash is statistically a better shooter. And I don't see why that's too crazy to consider - Nash is a very gifted NBA player. There is NO argument there. Now who would hit the most 3s during a 3 point contest, or who would hit the most jumpers in a pick up game, that's not to be seen in these statistics.

I guess I just don't think TS% or eFG% or any of that stuff necessarily tells us who the best shooter is. If the gap is gigantic (like comparing Zach Randolph's 3 point shooting to Dirk's or something), then obviously the numbers show who the better shooter is. But in instances like this, I think the numbers merely show who has made a higher % of their shots, not necessarily who the better shooter is. I'm a huge Steve Nash fan, but I would never say he's hands down a better shooter than Bird. Bird is one of the best shooters of all-time. Everyone knows this. But the numbers show that Steve Nash puts him to shame. I just don't buy that.

I don't think anyone was vying to compare Udrih to James, but you made your point, albeit it's one I don't think anyone here intended to argue in regards to. I don't think anyone is that tunnelled in, and if anyone were, then obviously they more likely than not shouldn't be speaking on the NBA.

Bumi has said countless times that Durant is a better finisher than Carmelo and that it's a concrete fact because even though we know Melo forces his way to the rim almost twice as much as Durant and that Durant doesn't like to force things, the fact that he has a higher FG% at the rim means that Durant is hands-down a better finisher. If we use this same logic, then Beno Udrih and Steve Nash are hands-down better finishers than LeBron James and almost every other guard/wingman in the NBA. Again, that's just not something that I can believe.

[Drewski]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Bumi has said countless times that Durant is a better finisher than Carmelo and that it's a concrete fact because even though we know Melo forces his way to the rim almost twice as much as Durant and that Durant doesn't like to force things, the fact that he has a higher FG% at the rim means that Durant is hands-down a better finisher. If we use this same logic, then Beno Udrih and Steve Nash are hands-down better finishers than LeBron James and almost every other guard/wingman in the NBA. Again, that's just not something that I can believe.

I see what you're getting at, but comparing Durant and Melo isn't comprable to comparing Lebron and Udrih. We've established they're both "elite", so now we look at the statisical comparisons. Because they both pass the eye test. Now it's time to look at stats to finely comb over each player and compare opinions with statistical backings. Doesn't seem like a crazy concept to me.

[DC35]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Am i missing something? both are prolific scorers the best thing both these players do is put points on the board and one of them scores more and does it more efficiently (Durant) so why is this even a debate?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

Am i missing something? both are prolific scorers the best thing both these players do is put points on the board and one of them scores more and does it more efficiently (Durant) so why is this even a debate?

It comes down to this.

When you ask a consensus top 5-7 players, you will hardly and rarely ever hear Carmelo's name. On the other hand, you will see Durant's name come up without fail.

I was just looking to see specifically what made Durant's name come up, and Melo's not. Further, I wanted to see specifically what separates the two.

That's the discussion. Not whether or not both are prolific scorers or not.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I guess I just don't think TS% or eFG% or any of that stuff necessarily tells us who the best shooter is.

TS% and eFG% aren't measures of shooting proficiency. They're measures of scoring efficiency.

If the gap is gigantic (like comparing Zach Randolph's 3 point shooting to Dirk's or something), then obviously the numbers show who the better shooter is. But in instances like this, I think the numbers merely show who has made a higher % of their shots, not necessarily who the better shooter is. I'm a huge Steve Nash fan, but I would never say he's hands down a better shooter than Bird. Bird is one of the best shooters of all-time. Everyone knows this. But the numbers show that Steve Nash puts him to shame. I just don't buy that.

I find it extremely interesting that you're willing to argue against FG percentages. I honestly don't understand how you can argue against one players shot going in more than anothers. Color me mind blown.

Bumi has said countless times that Durant is a better finisher than Carmelo and that it's a concrete fact because even though we know Melo forces his way to the rim almost twice as much as Durant and that Durant doesn't like to force things, the fact that he has a higher FG% at the rim means that Durant is hands-down a better finisher. If we use this same logic, then Beno Udrih and Steve Nash are hands-down better finishers than LeBron James and almost every other guard/wingman in the NBA. Again, that's just not something that I can believe.

You're reaching at straws at this point. A Durant versus Melo comparison is in no way comparable to a Udrih versus LeBron comparison. We've already established that Durant and Melo are elite players, now we're exploring why one may be greater than the other through statistical analysis.

[DC35]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

It comes down to this.

When you ask a consensus top 5-7 players, you will hardly and rarely ever hear Carmelo's name. On the other hand, you will see Durant's name come up without fail.

I was just looking to see specifically what made Durant's name come up, and Melo's not. Further, I wanted to see specifically what separates the two.

That's the discussion. Not whether or not both are prolific scorers or not.

I know this isn't about prolific scoring i was simply pointing out that is what they do best...Yea i noticed that it is almost like Melo is starting to get underrated he is still top 10 he just isn't better than KD imo

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I see what you're getting at, but comparing Durant and Melo isn't comprable to comparing Lebron and Udrih. We've established they're both "elite", so now we look at the statisical comparisons. Because they both pass the eye test. Now it's time to look at stats to finely comb over each player and compare opinions with statistical backings. Doesn't seem like a crazy concept to me.

I just don't think the statistical backings display anything more concrete than the fact that Nash is a better finisher than LeBron.

Nash and Udrih don't attempt nearly as many shots at the rim, just like the fact that Durant doesn't attempt nearly as many shots at the rim compared to Melo.

If I recall correctly, Udrih attempts about 1.8 shots at the rim per game compared to 3.6 from Durant, so we're talking about half the attempts. The same goes with comparing Durant to Melo. 3.6 attempts at the rim per game compared to 6.6. That's about half the attempts. So I think if we say Durant is in the same group as Melo as far as finishing around the rim, then we can also argue Udrih is in the same group as Durant as far as finishing around the rim, and if A (Durant's status as a finisher) = B (Melo's status as a finisher), and C (Udrih's status as a finisher) = A, then we can also say C = B, or in this particular situation, Udrih is in the same class as Melo when it comes to finishing at the rim, and if that's the case, then Udrih is a better finisher than Melo and LeBron in the same sense that Durant is.

[mKoz26]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

If we took fastbreak-dunks out of the equation, I wouldn't doubt that Carmelo's FG% at the rim would be higher than Durant's. It's too bad we don't have those stats.

That said, Durant is the better player by a wide margin, in my opinion. Better (albeit less diverse) scorer. More efficient. Longer and slightly better defensively. I'll take Durant.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I just don't think the statistical backings display anything more concrete than the fact that Nash is a better finisher than LeBron.

Nash and Udrih don't attempt nearly as many shots at the rim, just like the fact that Durant doesn't attempt nearly as many shots at the rim compared to Melo.

If I recall correctly, Udrih attempts about 1.8 shots at the rim per game compared to 3.6 from Durant, so we're talking about half the attempts. The same goes with comparing Durant to Melo. 3.6 attempts at the rim per game compared to 6.6. That's about half the attempts. So I think if we say Durant is in the same group as Melo as far as finishing around the rim, then we can also argue Udrih is in the same group as Durant as far as finishing around the rim, and if A (Durant's status as a finisher) = B (Melo's status as a finisher), and C (Udrih's status as a finisher) = A, then we can also say C = B, or in this particular situation, Udrih is in the same class as Melo when it comes to finishing at the rim, and if that's the case, then Udrih is a better finisher than Melo and LeBron in the same sense that Durant is.

Ok. Udrih is a better finisher than Melo and LeBron. Glad we've cleared that up.

[Jano]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I just don't think the statistical backings display anything more concrete than the fact that Nash is a better finisher than LeBron.

Nash and Udrih don't attempt nearly as many shots at the rim, just like the fact that Durant doesn't attempt nearly as many shots at the rim compared to Melo.

If I recall correctly, Udrih attempts about 1.8 shots at the rim per game compared to 3.6 from Durant, so we're talking about half the attempts. The same goes with comparing Durant to Melo. 3.6 attempts at the rim per game compared to 6.6. That's about half the attempts. So I think if we say Durant is in the same group as Melo as far as finishing around the rim, then we can also argue Udrih is in the same group as Durant as far as finishing around the rim, and if A (Durant's status as a finisher) = B (Melo's status as a finisher), and C (Udrih's status as a finisher) = A, then we can also say C = B, or in this particular situation, Udrih is in the same class as Melo when it comes to finishing at the rim, and if that's the case, then Udrih is a better finisher than Melo and LeBron in the same sense that Durant is.

LMAO!

It's funny how all of that made sense to me, and if you look at it from that angle I would have to agree with you. Beno Udrih = Melo finishing at the the rim lol

If we took fastbreak-dunks out of the equation, I wouldn't doubt that Carmelo's FG% at the rim would be higher than Durant's. It's too bad we don't have those stats.

This is one of the reasons why I feel like Melo is a better finisher in the lane. If Durant took it to the rack the SAME way Melo does I think his percentage drops.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I know this isn't about prolific scoring i was simply pointing out that is what they do best...Yea i noticed that it is almost like Melo is starting to get underrated he is still top 10 he just isn't better than KD imo

OK well that's what the debate is about, lol.

I don't think Melo is underrated by any means, btw. I think the consensus is correct in not including him in the top 5-7. Putting him in there would be a tough case.

With names like James, Bryant, Wade, Dirk, Howard, Paul, Durant, Rose, it's hard to put him there. Now top 10, yes, he belongs IMO. Interestingly enough, most of the responses in the thread have been that Melo currently is the "better" ball player.

So that's the discussion.

[Bumi]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I would just like to point out another issue with Yeah's gripe about "at rim" percentages.

Melo, regardless of attempts. Whether he was attempting 9(9.4) shots at the rim per game as he did in 2007, or the 5(5.4) attempts he finished with exclusively as a NYK. He's consistently finished in from the mid 50's, to the mid 60's percentage wise. That's never changed.

By the same token, Durant, regardless of attempts. Whether it's the 4(3.6) he finished with this season, or the 5(5.1 and 5.3 respectively) he finished with the two seasons prior to this season. He's always finished with high 60 to low 70's percentage wise. Consistency.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

TS% and eFG% aren't measures of shooting proficiency. They're measures of scoring efficiency.

I find it extremely interesting that you're willing to argue against FG percentages. I honestly don't understand how you can argue against one players shot going in more than anothers. Color me mind blown.

You're reaching at straws at this point. A Durant versus Melo comparison is in no way comparable to a Udrih versus LeBron comparison. We've already established that Durant and Melo are elite players, now we're exploring why one may be greater than the other through statistical analysis.

A shooting percentage is a shooting percentage. Nothing more.

And I don't think a shooting percentage can distinguish who is a better shooter when the numbers are so close because no two shots are the same. These metrics don't take intO account the difficulty of a shot (like that buzzer beater Durant had vs the Knicks or whoever it was vs a wide open 3). Those aren't the same shot but statistics count them the same and things like that can change percentages to the point that small gaps might not realistically be gaps at all.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Let's settle this: Kevin Durant vs. Carmelo Anthony

I would just like to point out another issue with Yeah's gripe about "at rim" percentages.

Melo, regardless of attempts. Whether he was attempting 9(9.4) shots at the rim per game as he did in his rookie season, or the 5(5.4) attempts he finished with exclusively as a NYK. He's consistently finished in from the mid 50's, to the mid 60's percentage wise. That's never changed.

By the same token, Durant, regardless of attempts. Whether it's the 4(3.6) he finished with this season, or the 5(5.1 and 5.3 respectively) he finished with the two seasons prior to this season. He's always finished with high 60 to low 70's percentage wise. Consistency.

But there's still so many variables not accounted for. How much melo improved from year 1 to year 5, how many defenders were on him on his layups as he began to demand more respect from defenses at the rim. Things like that can't be captured by statistics (at least not yet)