Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

[Drewski]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

I agree with all of this, except the last sentence. I feel as if Dallas was destined to win the title this season. Rose probably would have struggled against the zone, and OKC would have ultimately lost.

That is true, the zone would have been hard to overcome. I didnt' consider that I was shooting Dallas down in that statement, not my intention. The point I was trying to make is that I think OKC would have benefited more from Rose than Russ, but crowning them champions is a bit over the top sensationalism on my end. Against a zone I'd have to take Russ.

[1Rose]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Well, I watch them both play, and have never noticed a significant difference.

And nope, I'm pretty sure Westbrook is supposed to score in his current role. That's the burden you carry when you're involved in a starting rotation consisting of Kendrick Perkins, Thabo Sefolosha, and Serge Ibaka. If he and Durant don't score, no one does. Not until James Harden comes off the bench at least.

Pretty sure his role is to be a PG. If I recall, when he did anything but, he was ripped for it, and with good reason when you have Kevin Durant and are throwing up 30 shots a game.

Give Derrick Rose Kevin Durant, and he'd become Russell Westbrook. An All-Star PG playing second fiddle to the leagues best scorer. In fact, I suspect nothing would change except a decrease in PPG and an increase in APG.

And if Westbrook were swapped for Rose, I'm sure he'd front the scoring load for the Bulls. Doesn't make one significantly better or worse than the other.

I was referring to your comments on efficiency, which is your end all be all to a players talent level.

You're points aren't in context to what I was referring to.

[Drewski]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Pretty sure his role is to be a PG. If I recall, when he did anything but, he was ripped for it, and with good reason when you have Kevin Durant and are throwing up 30 shots a game.

He's not throwing up 30 a game though, he's throwing up 17 a game. For a second scoring option, I don't think that's insane. A little higher than most 2nd fiddles probably, but that team really only has 3 legitimate half court offense scoring options. I see what you're getting at with the PG thing, but he still dropped 8 assists a game. He isn't ignoring his role. Rose only had 15 total more assists through this last playoff run, and 29 more total points. I'm not saying Westbrook couldnt have played better, made smarter decisions, or any of that. But to say he isn't playing his role seems a bit silly.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Pretty sure his role is to be a PG. If I recall, when he did anything but, he was ripped for it, and with good reason when you have Kevin Durant and are throwing up 30 shots a game.

This is very odd coming from a Chicago, and by extension, Derrick Rose fan. Especially considering both Rose's and Westbrook's roles are almost identical. The only difference being the weight of their burdens. One being slightly heavier than the other.

Having Kevin Durant on roster is great. But Durant doesn't and never will average 50 ppg. Someone has to score, and it's Westbrook's role to do so. I'm sure this role will be relieved a bit once James Harden is inserted into the starting rotation and begins logging more minutes, but as far as this last season was concerned, Westbrook was doing exactly what was asked of him.

I was referring to your comments on efficiency, which is your end all be all to a players talent level.

You're points aren't in context to what I was referring to.

Efficiency statistics aren't the end all be all of, nor have I claimed they were. They are important though. Also, playing for OKC probably wouldn't have made Rose more efficient. It wouldn't have made him a better jump shooter, finisher around the rim, etc.

[1Rose]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

This is very odd coming from a Chicago, and by extension, Derrick Rose fan. Especially considering both Rose's and Westbrook's roles are almost identical. The only difference being the weight of their burdens. One being slightly heavier than the other.

Not sure how you can say they have similar roles when the personnel of each team is completely different. Rose was asked to be the #1 option, handle the scoring load, and when the opportunity presented itself, to get his team involved. Every defense was geared toward stopping Rose.

Russell was asked to be the facilitator, to get Durant the ball and IF need be, to score. Not to be the #1 option, which is why when he tried doing it in the playoffs, and failed, people rose hell about it.

Obviously with a guy like Durant on your team, you are going to get easier opportunities when the defense is geared toward stopping him.

Having Kevin Durant on roster is great. But Durant doesn't and never will average 50 ppg. Someone has to score, and it's Westbrook's role to do so. I'm sure this role will be relieved a bit once James Harden is inserted into the starting rotation and begins logging more minutes, but as far as this last season was concerned, Westbrook was doing exactly what was asked of him.

Rose doesn't have two other guys who can create off the dribble and get their shot, and can light it up. Russell does.

Efficiency statistics aren't the end all be all of, nor have I claimed they were. They are important though. Also, playing for OKC probably wouldn't have made Rose more efficient. It wouldn't have made him a better jump shooter, finisher around the rim, etc.

Then how come every time a discussion like this comes up, that's the first thing I see you post.

If you honestly believe the bolded statement, then I'm not going to debate further.

[Drewski]

Rose doesn't have two other guys who can create off the dribble and get their shot, and can light it up. Russell does.

Whoa whoa whoa let's not get too crazy over Harden here. He's good but he's not lighting it up every time he steps on the court. He's solid though definitely. Westbrooks role is not score if needed either, its score because we absolutely need you to score almost as much as Durant every night while trying to keep our offense flowing. I won't even get into the offensive limitations implemented by Brooks vs the Bulls offense.

Sent from the free throw line

[1Rose]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Not saying he does, but he's an option that Rose wished he had.

Any guy that can come in on limited minutes and give you 20-25 on his own, without needing someone to create for him, would be a welcome addition to any team.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Not saying he does, but he's an option that Rose wished he had.

Any guy that can come in on limited minutes and give you 20-25 on his own, without needing someone to create for him, would be a welcome addition to any team.

I would love to have Harden on the Hornets. As dymanic as Westbrook is if your going to run point you have to look to get others involved way more than Russ did in the playoffs.

[Drewski]

Not saying he does, but he's an option that Rose wished he had.

Any guy that can come in on limited minutes and give you 20-25 on his own, without needing someone to create for him, would be a welcome addition to any team.

I agree he's a great piece but westbrook shouldn't be deferring to 3rd option under harden. Id have a problem with Russell doing that, unless Harden really steps up and okcs success followed Russ relagating himself to 13 shots a game and picking up an extra assist or two. Which puts him close to double double territory, which is pretty snappy. Regardless I think both guards (have to) force the issue too often. Ironic that cp doesn't seem to have that kind of label while being on a pretty rough team compared to either of these guys. That's not for here though.

Sent from the free throw line

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Not sure how you can say they have similar roles when the personnel of each team is completely different.

It's easy. They have similar roles. You said as much yourself below.

Rose was asked to be the #1 option, handle the scoring load, and when the opportunity presented itself, to get his team involved. Every defense was geared toward stopping Rose.

Both roles attributed to Westbrook as well. The only difference being, Rose is the #1 option for his team, and Westbrook is the #2 option for his own.

Russell was asked to be the facilitator, to get Durant the ball and IF need be, to score. Not to be the #1 option, which is why when he tried doing it in the playoffs, and failed, people rose hell about it.

He is the facilitator, but he also scores. And yes, Russell got ahead of himself at times in the playoffs. He's young, it happens. That has absolutely no bearing on his assigned role.

Obviously with a guy like Durant on your team, you are going to get easier opportunities when the defense is geared toward stopping him.

But defenses aren't always aimed at stopping Durant. Dallas, for example, didn't play zone in hopes of stifling Durant's production. They played zone to filter penetration. In other words, their zone was aimed at throwing a hitch in Westbrook's game. Keeping him out of the paint, making him settle for jumpers, etc.

Rose doesn't have two other guys who can create off the dribble and get their shot, and can light it up. Russell does.

James Harden didn't have a significant role in OKC's rotation until after the All-Star break. 28 regular season games, and 17 playoff games. During that time, he was coming off the bench 8 minutes into the game. That's typically when Westbrook goes off the court in the first and third.

And to this point, due to their limited time playing together, they haven't meshed too particularly well. I suspect this will change in time, but is was a small problem when they were on the court together this season.

Then how come every time a discussion like this comes up, that's the first thing I see you post.

I'm not sure what threads you're following, but I'm certain I posted much more than efficiency statistics in this thread. In fact, the premise of my argument, in this particular case, has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency as neither of the two players in this discussion are significantly more efficient than the other. They're both fairly mediocre in that aspect.

If you honestly believe the bolded statement, then I'm not going to debate further.

Instead of taking your ball and going home, why not explain how exactly playing for OKC makes Rose a more efficient player? Playing for OKC doesn't make him a better jump shooter. Playing for OKC doesn't magically increase his 60% at rim percentage. It doesn't alter his shot selection, or make FT's go in at a higher frequency. Etc.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Not saying he does, but he's an option that Rose wished he had.

And Carlos Boozer, who has career playoff numbers of 18/12/3, would be an attractive option for OKC.

Any guy that can come in on limited minutes and give you 20-25 on his own, without needing someone to create for him, would be a welcome addition to any team.

As I already alluded to. Westbrook and Harden have played very limited minutes together to this point. It wasn't until the playoffs that their rotations began to frequently overlap. I'm sure with more time to become accustomed to each others play styles, they'll become more conducive of the others abilities on the court.

Also. Harden averaged 12 during the regular season, and 13 during the playoffs. He's a great player, and I suspect he'll develop into one of the better SG's in the league, but he isn't there yet. Lets not act like he's some skilled assassin as this point.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

I agree he's a great piece but westbrook shouldn't be deferring to 3rd option under harden. Id have a problem with Russell doing that, unless Harden really steps up and okcs success followed Russ relagating himself to 13 shots a game and picking up an extra assist or two. Which puts him close to double double territory, which is pretty snappy. Regardless I think both guards (have to) force the issue too often. Ironic that cp doesn't seem to have that kind of label while being on a pretty rough team compared to either of these guys. That's not for here though.

Sent from the free throw line

I'd be elated if Westbrook altered his game in order to average more assist and less points once Harden is inserted into the starting lineup. I'd love to see something like this out of the starting rotation.

Westbrook: 16/4/9/55 TS%

Harden: 17/4/5/58 TS%

Durant: 30/8/4/60 TS%

Ibaka: 14/10/1/58 TS%

Perkins: 10/7/1/57 TS%

Westbrook becomes less of a scorer and more of a facilitator.(Methinks people are forgetting that Westbrook has only run the point for 3 seasons. He played the off guard at UCLA), Harden logs more minutes, and as a result, averages more points. Durant is his usual self, Ibaka develops a bit more, and Perkins reverts back to his Bostons form.

[Drewski]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

I'd be elated if Westbrook altered his game in order to average more assist and less points once Harden is inserted into the starting lineup. I'd love to see something like this out of the starting rotation.

Westbrook: 16/4/9/55 TS%

Harden: 17/4/5/58 TS%

Durant: 30/8/4/60 TS%

Ibaka: 14/10/1/58 TS%

Perkins: 10/7/1/57 TS%

Westbrook becomes less of a scorer and more of a facilitator.(Methinks people are forgetting that Westbrook has only run the point for 3 seasons. He played the off guard at UCLA), Harden logs more minutes, and as a result, averages more points. Durant is his usual self, Ibaka develops a bit more, and Perkins reverts back to his Bostons form.

This is all very possible, I like that team alot more than the current teams set up, but until that offense steps it up with X's and O's, Harden will continue to be an anomaly of what he could be. We all can agree here that Harden is kind of the ace up OKC's sleeve, but they need to really implement him. Get him in that starting line up, run him some plays to get him going. If Harden can produce 17ppg, then I'd hope that Westbrook could shift more to a CP3 game where he's picking his spots very wisely and not forcing the issue when he's got two options that can score as efficienty - or more efficiently - than he does. But that was not this years Harden. Maybe next year, all depending on Harden's progression along with the teams philosophy on what they intend to do with The Bearded One.

[1Rose]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

It's easy. They have similar roles. You said as much yourself below.

Both roles attributed to Westbrook as well. The only difference being, Rose is the #1 option for his team, and Westbrook is the #2 option for his own.

Last time I checked. Being the #1 scoring option and load bearer for an entire team, is ALOT different than being the #2 scorer on a team lead by someone else.

I'm not sure what threads you're following, but I'm certain I posted much more than efficiency statistics in this thread. In fact, the premise of my argument, in this particular case, has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency as neither of the two players in this discussion are significantly more efficient than the other. They're both fairly mediocre in that aspect.

You're right, the rest was spent pointing out biases and fallacies in everyone elses argument.

Instead of taking your ball and going home, why not explain how exactly playing for OKC makes Rose a more efficient player? Playing for OKC doesn't make him a better jump shooter. Playing for OKC doesn't magically increase his 60% at rim percentage. It doesn't alter his shot selection, or make FT's go in at a higher frequency. Etc.

I'm not taking my ball and going home, it's the frustration of someones failure to admit being on one team would make it easier on a player than the other. Instead, you just keep pointing to percentages and stats that are useless.

If you honestly believe that having the scoring champ on your team, doesn't help make other people's opportunites around you easier. Then you obviously have not watched basketball...well ever.

He would be met with less resistance at the rim, which in Chicago, he often goes up against multiple defenders at the rim, due to Noah, who was no threat on offense and having Boozer's man camped down there. Would have wider lanes to penetrate seeing D can't sag off as they can when there isn't anyone else on your team that can dribble penetrate, thus allowing more open jumpers.

Also. Harden averaged 12 during the regular season, and 13 during the playoffs. He's a great player, and I suspect he'll develop into one of the better SG's in the league, but he isn't there yet. Lets not act like he's some skilled assassin as this point.

Don't know too many bums that can come off the bench and score 25 in the variety of ways that Harden does. Bulls definitely don't have anyone like that.

James Harden didn't have a significant role in OKC's rotation until after the All-Star break

He didn't?? Pretty sure he was putting in 25-30 minutes almost every night from the time the season started.

[Bumi]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Last time I checked. Being the #1 scoring option and load bearer for an entire team, is ALOT different than being the #2 scorer on a team lead by someone else.

As I said, despite their respective positions in their teams hierarchical builds, their roles are essentially the same. Score and facilitate. One is asked to score a little more(3 points on two shots) and the other to facilitate a little more.(1 more assist)

You're right, the rest was spent pointing out biases and fallacies in everyone elses argument.

I do what I must.

I'm not taking my ball and going home, it's the frustration of someones failure to admit being on one team would make it easier on a player than the other. Instead, you just keep pointing to percentages and stats that are useless.

If you honestly believe that having the scoring champ on your team, doesn't help make other people's opportunites around you easier. Then you obviously have not watched basketball...well ever.

He would be met with less resistance at the rim, which in Chicago, he often goes up against multiple defenders at the rim, due to Noah, who was no threat on offense and having Boozer's man camped down there. Would have wider lanes to penetrate seeing D can't sag off as they can when there isn't anyone else on your team that can dribble penetrate, thus allowing more open jumpers.

Well, that's just terrible logic. I'm sorry, but it is. Kobe, for example, was more efficient during his years post Shaq, than he was during his years with Shaq. And if you think age has anything to do with it, Kobe was more efficient prior to Gasol, than he was with Gasol. These past two seasons, he's as inefficient as he's ever been. And that's with arguably the most stacked supporting cast in the league.

Kevin Garnett's most efficient season ever(albeit, by a single point) was posted as a Timberwolf.

Michael Jordan was significantly more efficient prior to Pippen, and his 6 championship runs, than he was during those years. He posted a TS% of 60 or greater 4 straight times, and then after his first championship, never did so again.

Etc.

Now, this isn't to say there aren't exceptions. But it surely isn't an indisputable truth that playing with Durant would make Rose a more efficient player.

Don't know too many bums that can come off the bench and score 25 in the variety of ways that Harden does. Bulls definitely don't have anyone like that.

Don't recall labeling Harden a bum. And, as I said, OKC doesn't have a front court player who can score like Boozer. It goes both ways.

He didn't?? Pretty sure he was putting in 25-30 minutes almost every night from the time the season started.

And I'm pretty sure he was thought of as an underachiever, as most of his production was being eaten by Jeff Green. And he seldom played 30 minutes per game prior to the trade.

To that point, critics were saying OKC should have picked Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry.