Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Well, that's just terrible logic. I'm sorry, but it is. Kobe, for example, was more efficient during his years post Shaq, than he was during his years with Shaq. And if you think age has anything to do with it, Kobe was more efficient prior to Gasol, than he was with Gasol. These past two seasons, he's as inefficient as he's ever been. And that's with arguably the most stacked supporting cast in the league.

Kevin Garnett's most efficient season ever(albeit, by a single point) was posted as a Timberwolf.

Michael Jordan was significantly more efficient prior to Pippen, and his 6 championship runs, than he was during those years. He posted a TS% of 60 or greater 4 straight times, and then after his first championship, never did so again.

Etc.

Now, this isn't to say there aren't exceptions. But it surely isn't an indisputable truth that playing with Durant would make Rose a more efficient player.

So Kobe and Garnett were more efficient in their primes than they were on their decline, and Jordan was more efficient when he was pretty much a slasher and hadn't become more of a jumpshooter yet? You don't say...

[slimm44]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

But that's why you can't exactly look at just stats to determine things. Two years ago he was still taking a backseat to Ben Gordon in the offense. I don't see how he's a shoot first point guard two years ago when practically all of Chicago was begging the guy to step up and take over the team as it's PG like he was suppose to because Ben Gordon was still dominating the team.

He averaged 14.9 shots a game his rookie year, second to Ben's 16. 15 shots a game for a PG, to me, is still a shoot first PG. Again, IT'S NOT A KNOCK ON HIS GAME. He's a very dynamic scorer, especially for a PG.

Two posters with Bulls avatars in a row defending Rose against a shoot-first label? Is that really a bad thing when he leads the team to the ECF and wins the MVP award?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

He averaged 14.9 shots a game his rookie year, second to Ben's 16. 15 shots a game for a PG, to me, is still a shoot first PG. Again, IT'S NOT A KNOCK ON HIS GAME. He's a very dynamic scorer, especially for a PG.

Two posters with Bulls avatars in a row defending Rose against a shoot-first label? Is that really a bad thing when he leads the team to the ECF and wins the MVP award?

Does it really matter what the avatar says for us? I didn't say it was a knock on his game or that it was a bad thing that you're labeling him a shoot-first point guard. I'm simply pointing out that I don't agree with that assesment of his game and that simply looking at a number on a paper doesn't explain the whole story. He took 14.9 shots a game okay cool, at what point in the game did those shots come? How many of those shots were in the first quarter and then spread out throughout the rest of the game? When did those shots come in comparison to Ben Gordon's shots? Who took more shots in the fourth quarter? Like I said, you can't consider someone a shoot first point guard when you have to beg him to take over a game from the guy that's shooting you out of a lot of games and there were several spots in his rookie year where Vinny wasn't even playing him down the stretch of the fourth quarter. Again just looking at numbers on a sheet of paper don't tell everything.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

The term "scoring PG" sounds so much better IMO when talking about Rose...

[slimm44]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Does it really matter what the avatar says for us? I didn't say it was a knock on his game or that it was a bad thing that you're labeling him a shoot-first point guard. I'm simply pointing out that I don't agree with that assesment of his game and that simply looking at a number on a paper doesn't explain the whole story. He took 14.9 shots a game okay cool, at what point in the game did those shots come? How many of those shots were in the first quarter and then spread out throughout the rest of the game? When did those shots come in comparison to Ben Gordon's shots? Who took more shots in the fourth quarter? Like I said, you can't consider someone a shoot first point guard when you have to beg him to take over a game from the guy that's shooting you out of a lot of games and there were several spots in his rookie year where Vinny wasn't even playing him down the stretch of the fourth quarter. Again just looking at numbers on a sheet of paper don't tell everything.

You're arguing semantics. I like stats, but I'm not Bumis. You don't have to accuse me of just going off of stats. Read through my posts, I think you'll find it's obvious I've seen Rose play. We probably agree a lot on Rose but you're coming off more defensive now than you were before.

[1Rose]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

I feel this getting as redundant as the Melo/Durant thread. I'm done debating, because frankly, you're not going to change the mind of a person (Bumi) who said Rose didn't do anything to deserve the MVP award. I will say this though, the one thing Westbrook has on Rose, is his post dunk screaming, definitely one of the better dunk celebrators in the league. Lol

I'll leave you all with this little nugget:

MVP Count:
Rose: 1
Westbrook: 0

Yeah, I went there...

[Altimus]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

This again? Really? Really?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

You're arguing semantics. I like stats, but I'm not Bumis. You don't have to accuse me of just going off of stats. Read through my posts, I think you'll find it's obvious I've seen Rose play. We probably agree a lot on Rose but you're coming off more defensive now than you were before.

We probably are arguing the same thing really. I was simply pointing out that I didn't agree with the idea that he was a shoot first point guard two years ago. Now? I might not have a problem with that statement, but two years ago he definitely wasn't. If that second post comes off as more defensive it's probably because you threw in the little line about two Bulls avatars defending Rose and whatnot as if we were just homers not wanting anything bad said about dude. So if I'm being defensive, then well...yeah, there you go. Bottomline though I don't think you can look at Derrick Rose's play and situation two years ago and read off a sheet of paper about shots per game and tell me he was a shoot first PG when I watched every game that year and it definitely wasn't a shoot first situation with him considering he was handing off to Gordon most of the time or not even touching the ball because Gordon was still the focal point of the offense.

[The15thunter]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

they are similar players, but rose is better at basketball than westbrook. without looking at a single statistic, the only advantage i would give westbrook over rose based on watching them...rebounding. and that's a close call. everything else, i think rose is either clearly or slightly better.

[noize]

That was my first thought as well. Rose is just doing so much more with his team. And clutchness? Let's not even go there.

When I think of Rose, I think of him as the face and the franchise of the Bulls whose dependent on Rose for success a lot more then the thunder dependent of WB.

I can't believe someone is even contemplating Russ being better than Rose.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9630 using Tapatalk

[Po Pimp]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Maybe Westbrook is better at drawing fouls? Seems like a plausible conclusion seeing as Westbrook has averaged more FTA than Rose throughout the entirety of their careers.

Ok, what about each of their first 2 seasons when Westbrook averaged more 3PA AND more FTAs? Like I said earlier, I've seen almost every game Rose has played for the Bulls, and the reason Westbrook gets to the line more than Rose is because Rose doesn't sell the calls...i.e, Rose gets penalized for not flopping on plays.

Like I said earlier, Rose doesn't sell the calls, so he doesn't get to the line as much as Westbrook. Growing up hooping in the streets in Chicago, we don't call fouls, so u have to adjust your game and make the shot, because ur not gonna get bailed out by a foul call. When you've been doing it so long, u get used to not flopping, and that's the reason why Rose only goes to the line when the contact is pretty obvious.

[wwharton]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Like I said earlier, Rose doesn't sell the calls, so he doesn't get to the line as much as Westbrook. Growing up hooping in the streets in Chicago, we don't call fouls, so u have to adjust your game and make the shot, because ur not gonna get bailed out by a foul call. When you've been doing it so long, u get used to not flopping, and that's the reason why Rose only goes to the line when the contact is pretty obvious.

Now you're stretching. Growing up "hooping in the streets" of just about any "hood" is no different. If you want to make a case that the players that honed their craft more in college ball... or even AAU, then you may have somewhat of a case but probably 80% of the league grew up hooping in the streets of "Somewhere, USA" where fouls weren't called. You play organized ball and cater your game to it, whether its toning down the traveling and palming or learning how to draw/sell a foul. Rose has played plenty of organized ball. If you want to praise him for not selling the calls, that's fine... we all hate the way the NBA handles that stuff. But we can't really criticize WB for taking advantage of the rules that allow him to be more successful at his craft either. I'd just leave it as "it is what it is" as I don't think it helps or hurts either of their cases.

[mvspree8]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

But we can't really criticize WB for taking advantage of the rules that allow him to be more successful at his craft either. I'd just leave it as "it is what it is" as I don't think it helps or hurts either of their cases.

Can't criticize a guy.... for flopping?

[JBH3]

I love Westbrook. I even argued previously in the season that he was the better PG, or that the difference between the two were neglible. I think that westbrook is equally athletic in his own right, but does not posess the same Basketball IQ. The MVP would not be interchangeable if these two players switched teams. I think Rose could still win an MVP and be even more dominant with Durant.

I think Rose comes with more fanfare too. He has the backing of the larger market and #1 overall selection so that gives him an edge, be it right, wrong, or indifferent.

[wwharton]

Re: Debate: Russel Westbrook vs Derrick Rose

Can't criticize a guy.... for flopping?

You can do whatever you want on a message board. Personally, if I were his career coach... or lets just say agent, I'd advice him to do whatever he can to increase his earning power or ability to be as successful as possible. Shooting foul shots is the easiest way to put points on the board, so therefore getting to the line is an important part of the game. Whether anyone likes that certain aspect of the game or not, it IS part of the game and it doesn't make sense to criticize a player for taking advantage of it in the way WB does. Some definitely go overboard and we can laugh at them. Some are too good in their own right to need to abuse it to the extent they do. But overall, any problems with it should be directed at the league and the refs imo.