Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

Collapse

Recommended Videos

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Chairman7w
    MVP
    • Mar 2006
    • 1490

    #1

    Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

    I know we've had this discussion before, and I respect your opinions on the matter, one way or another.

    BUT - I've been watching old school games on NBA TV, and Fox Sports (during the lockout_) and after watching a '75 game last night (Warriors vs Nuggets, I think), I have to say that there's NO WAY old school teams (certainly prior to mid 80s) could hang with players of today.

    Skinny, weak players compared to today, dribbling like 8 yr olds, and very little athleticism.

    yes, i know there are SOME exceptions player-wise (Oscar Robertson comes to mind), but 95% of the players would not be able to hang. Not to diminish the achievements of the teams of the past, but it's just a different game.

    And before somebody pops in and says, "but players of today couldn't adjust to the hard, physical play, and they'd get called for travelling, blah blah blah..." I will just say that, WHY do we have to adjust backwards?? Hell, players of back then could not adjust to TODAY'S game.
  • Sellaz32
    MVP
    • Dec 2010
    • 2339

    #2
    It's simple evolution. Athletic ability and skills evolve in every sport. That's why world records keep getting beat over time. You can't make comparisons without accounting for that. It's like comparing game systems from different generations. A Jerry West today would be totally different...and Kobe in the 60's would as well.

    Comment

    • dkrause1971
      All Star
      • Aug 2005
      • 5176

      #3
      Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

      Originally posted by Chairman7w
      I know we've had this discussion before, and I respect your opinions on the matter, one way or another.

      BUT - I've been watching old school games on NBA TV, and Fox Sports (during the lockout_) and after watching a '75 game last night (Warriors vs Nuggets, I think), I have to say that there's NO WAY old school teams (certainly prior to mid 80s) could hang with players of today.

      Skinny, weak players compared to today, dribbling like 8 yr olds, and very little athleticism.

      yes, i know there are SOME exceptions player-wise (Oscar Robertson comes to mind), but 95% of the players would not be able to hang. Not to diminish the achievements of the teams of the past, but it's just a different game.

      And before somebody pops in and says, "but players of today couldn't adjust to the hard, physical play, and they'd get called for travelling, blah blah blah..." I will just say that, WHY do we have to adjust backwards?? Hell, players of back then could not adjust to TODAY'S game.
      The reason the adjustment always comes up is because its easier to adjust to a more open style than it is to constant hand-checking, getting drilled if you enter the paint, and so on. I agree with your general premise that the players of today are too big and athletic for the 60, 70s teams especially to handle. I am thankful that your not one of those guys who literally think no one from that era could play today.
      Gamertag and PSN Name: RomanCaesar

      Comment

      • st0rmb11
        All Star
        • Nov 2008
        • 5167

        #4
        Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

        Originally posted by Chairman7w
        I know we've had this discussion before, and I respect your opinions on the matter, one way or another.

        BUT - I've been watching old school games on NBA TV, and Fox Sports (during the lockout_) and after watching a '75 game last night (Warriors vs Nuggets, I think), I have to say that there's NO WAY old school teams (certainly prior to mid 80s) could hang with players of today.

        Skinny, weak players compared to today, dribbling like 8 yr olds, and very little athleticism.

        yes, i know there are SOME exceptions player-wise (Oscar Robertson comes to mind), but 95% of the players would not be able to hang. Not to diminish the achievements of the teams of the past, but it's just a different game.

        And before somebody pops in and says, "but players of today couldn't adjust to the hard, physical play, and they'd get called for travelling, blah blah blah..." I will just say that, WHY do we have to adjust backwards?? Hell, players of back then could not adjust to TODAY'S game.
        First off, this should probably be in the Pro Basketball thread.

        Second, not many people would claim that players from the 60s or 70s could dominate today's game. The argument you usually see is that players from the 80s & 90s would dominate today. And I agree that they would.

        There are no better athletes in today's NBA than there were in the 80s and 90s. The game (as it is played by the players) was pretty much the same in 1986 as it is in 2011. The only difference is the rules. The game was much more physical (hand checking, less flagrant fouls called, etc.) in the 80s and 90s than it is today.

        No one would argue that Bill Russell would average 20+ rebounds in today's league, or that Oscar would average a triple double for a season in today's league. But, you would find people who would (rightfully) argue that Jordan would average 37 points per game in today's league, or that Magic would average 20 points, 8 boards, & 13 assists in today's game.

        Not many people ever say that the 60s & 70s was the dominant era of basketball. In fact, any knowledgeable fan would readily admit that 95% of those guys wouldn't excel today. (I feel that Walton, Maravich, Chamberlain, West, Frazier, Havlicek, Kareem & others would have), but the likes of Heinsohn, Tom Sanders, Clyde Lovelette, & Hal Greer would have no place in today's league.
        However, not only could Bird, Jordan, Magic, Dr. J, & Moses Malone succeed today, but "lesser" guys like Mitch Richmond, Mark Jackson, Orlando Woolridge, & Horace Grant would also translate over to today's league quite well. Guys like Richmond would be better in today's league, due to the aforementioned "no hand checking" rule.
        Last edited by st0rmb11; 12-03-2011, 10:03 PM.

        Cincinnati Reds

        UNC Tarheels

        Twitter: @st0rmb11

        PS4

        Comment

        • ggsimmonds
          Hall Of Fame
          • Jan 2009
          • 11235

          #5
          Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

          should probably move this thread to the pro basketball forum....


          To enter my thoughts into the discussion, it is true that I believe the players of today are superior, at least athletically, to the players of past eras; but that does not mean that they are more skilled. There is actually an interesting line in the game where Steve Kerr (or was it Kellog?) opines that players of today may be better in ball handling and other things, yet in other areas (off ball movement) they were inferior. I agree with this.

          Players of today are better than they were previously, but they are not as better as they could be. I think in any sport there will typically be progression ( one could argue that there are exceptions such as boxing) but aside from the athleticism, the sport of basketball has not progressed as quickly and as far as it could. At some point when players reached this new level of athleticism they fell in love with it and started to neglect the non-athletic aspects of the game.

          But basketball's modern era started in the 80's and generally we can use that as something of a landmark. That is to say that there is such a thing as pre 80's basketball and post 80's. And typically the quality of the sport is tilted heavily towards one side.

          Comment

          • ggsimmonds
            Hall Of Fame
            • Jan 2009
            • 11235

            #6
            Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

            Originally posted by st0rmb11
            First off, this should probably be in the Pro Basketball thread.

            Second, not many people would claim that players from the 60s or 70s could dominate today's game. The argument you usually see is that players from the 80s & 90s would dominate today. And I agree that they would.

            There are no better athletes in today's NBA than there were in the 80s and 90s. The game (as it is played by the players) was pretty much the same in 1986 as it is in 2011. The only difference is the rules. The game was much more physical (hand checking, less flagrant fouls called, etc.) in the 80s and 90s than it is today.

            No one would argue that Bill Russell would average 20+ rebounds in today's league, or that Oscar would average a triple double for a season in today's league. But, you would find people who would (rightfully) argue that Jordan would average 37 points per game in today's league, or that Magic would average 20 points, 8 boards, & 13 assists in today's game.

            Not many people ever say that the 60s & 70s was the dominant era of basketball. In fact, any knowledgeable fan would readily admit that 95% of those guys wouldn't excel today. (I feel that Walton, Maravich, Chamberlain, West, Frazier, Havlicek, Kareem & others would have), but the likes of Heinsohn, Tom Sanders, Clyde Lovelette, & Hal Greer would have no place in today's league.
            However, not only could Bird, Jordan, Magic, Dr. J, & Moses Malone succeed today, but "lesser" guys like Mitch Richmond, Mark Jackson, Orlando Woolridge, & Horace Grant would also translate over to today's league quite well. Guys like Richmond would be better in today's league, due to the aforementioned "no hand checking" rule.
            I am inclined to agree. I do think players of today are more athletic than they were in the 80's and the gap is relatively large. However, the game as it was 20 years ago had a better mix of athleticism and IQ and the other less glamorous parts of the game.
            It is similar to the goldilocks idea of being just right.

            Comment

            • AlexBrady
              MVP
              • Jul 2008
              • 3341

              #7
              Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

              Originally posted by Chairman7w
              I know we've had this discussion before, and I respect your opinions on the matter, one way or another.

              BUT - I've been watching old school games on NBA TV, and Fox Sports (during the lockout_) and after watching a '75 game last night (Warriors vs Nuggets, I think), I have to say that there's NO WAY old school teams (certainly prior to mid 80s) could hang with players of today.

              Skinny, weak players compared to today, dribbling like 8 yr olds, and very little athleticism.

              yes, i know there are SOME exceptions player-wise (Oscar Robertson comes to mind), but 95% of the players would not be able to hang. Not to diminish the achievements of the teams of the past, but it's just a different game.

              And before somebody pops in and says, "but players of today couldn't adjust to the hard, physical play, and they'd get called for travelling, blah blah blah..." I will just say that, WHY do we have to adjust backwards?? Hell, players of back then could not adjust to TODAY'S game.
              Actually, the majority of the players and teams would be able to hang. Why? Better man movement and ball reversals. Better footwork and box outs. Indeed, 90% of the game is played off the ball, and that is the transcendent advantage the players of yester-year would have.

              Now, some guys could not play in today's game because they had physical limitations, Bob Cousy and George Mikan were shackled to the Earth and Ed Macauley was only 190 pounds. But fleet-footed players would fit right in with the faster paced game.

              The violent nature of the game back then necessitated that ball-handlers be more careful with their dribble. Hand-checking has since been outlawed and that has made perimeter play much easier. The bean-counters want to see the scoreboard blink and flash after all.

              Which old school teams would storm through today's league? The 67 Sixers, 65 and 66 Celtics, 70 Knicks, 71 Bucks, 72 Lakers, 75 Warriors, and 77 Blazers to name a few.

              In my estimation, the 67 Sixers were one of the best teams of all time, their front line:

              Wilt Chamberlain 7'1 310 lbs
              Lucius Jackson 6'9 250 lbs
              Chet Walker 6'7 220 lbs

              Good luck dealing with those brutes. The screens were Earth-moving, the fouls were vicious, and they left most every team battered after they trounced them.

              Modern day fans think todays players and teams are sacrosanct. Obviously, their own egos are at stake.


              Originally posted by st0rmb11
              First off, this should probably be in the Pro Basketball thread.

              Second, not many people would claim that players from the 60s or 70s could dominate today's game. The argument you usually see is that players from the 80s & 90s would dominate today. And I agree that they would.

              There are no better athletes in today's NBA than there were in the 80s and 90s. The game (as it is played by the players) was pretty much the same in 1986 as it is in 2011. The only difference is the rules. The game was much more physical (hand checking, less flagrant fouls called, etc.) in the 80s and 90s than it is today.

              No one would argue that Bill Russell would average 20+ rebounds in today's league, or that Oscar would average a triple double for a season in today's league. But, you would find people who would (rightfully) argue that Jordan would average 37 points per game in today's league, or that Magic would average 20 points, 8 boards, & 13 assists in today's game.

              Not many people ever say that the 60s & 70s was the dominant era of basketball. In fact, any knowledgeable fan would readily admit that 95% of those guys wouldn't excel today. (I feel that Walton, Maravich, Chamberlain, West, Frazier, Havlicek, Kareem & others would have), but the likes of Heinsohn, Tom Sanders, Clyde Lovelette, & Hal Greer would have no place in today's league.
              However, not only could Bird, Jordan, Magic, Dr. J, & Moses Malone succeed today, but "lesser" guys like Mitch Richmond, Mark Jackson, Orlando Woolridge, & Horace Grant would also translate over to today's league quite well. Guys like Richmond would be better in today's league, due to the aforementioned "no hand checking" rule.
              Bill Russell would average 20 plus boards in today's game. He was a six space rebounder with incredibly quick ups, sinewy strength, and impeccable timing.

              Heinsohn was a bully player and would have been a force on the boards in any era. Satch Sanders was fleet-footed and thus suited to hang with the jet-setters. Hal Greer was a mini-tank. They would all dominate today's game. Clyde Lovelette, I agree with you, he couldn't make it.

              Note: To any modern day fans eye-balling 'older' games, take your eyes off the ball. Its okay, the ball won't explode or float off into space. Notice the solid screens and determined cuts.
              Last edited by AlexBrady; 12-03-2011, 11:14 PM.

              Comment

              • Chairman7w
                MVP
                • Mar 2006
                • 1490

                #8
                Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                Actually, the majority of the players and teams would be able to hang. Why? Better man movement and ball reversals. Better footwork and box outs. Indeed, 90% of the game is played off the ball, and that is the transcendent advantage the players of yester-year would have.
                I actually disagree with this. I think that's a relic of some romantic nostalgia of a bygone era... If you go back and actually watch some of those old games, there were lazy, dumb players back then, too (some might argue more of them). It wasn't the high-dollar, high-profile world of today, where you simply can't get away with that crap.

                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                The violent nature of the game back then necessitated that ball-handlers be more careful with their dribble. Hand-checking has since been outlawed and that has made perimeter play much easier.
                Violent nature? Ppfffttt... Not so. The old standbye statement of "They'd knock your teeth out if you came in the lane back then" is simply untrue. Again, go back and watch some of those games and that was NOT happening on a regular basis AT ALL. There was PLENTY of lane to drive into, defense was often poor. I'd argue that today's defense is far superior to the defense of old. Guys like Artest, Gerald Wallace, Dwayne Wade, Kobe... Those old flat-footed players would have NONE chance scoring against the likes of them.


                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                In my estimation, the 67 Sixers were one of the best teams of all time, their front line:

                Wilt Chamberlain 7'1 310 lbs
                Lucius Jackson 6'9 250 lbs
                Chet Walker 6'7 220 lbs

                Good luck dealing with those brutes. The screens were Earth-moving, the fouls were vicious, and they left most every team battered after they trounced them.
                You're kidding, right? First of all, playing against a team of today, they'd get ran off the court. I honestly believe that. Second of all, this INCREDIBLE team that sets Earth-moving screens, leaving teams battered won a total of... ONE championship. So - they weren't even the best team of that era (save that one year), and you're telling me they'd waltz through today's league? Sorry, I aint buyin' it.



                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                Heinsohn was a bully player and would have been a force on the boards in any era. Satch Sanders was fleet-footed and thus suited to hang with the jet-setters. Hal Greer was a mini-tank. They would all dominate today's game.
                Like I said, SOME players from older eras could hang. (But I'm not including any of those guys. I don't think they could even hang with today's guys, and you think they'd DOMINATE? No. Maybe Russell, Wilt, Oscar...


                Originally posted by AlexBrady
                Note: To any modern day fans eye-balling 'older' games, take your eyes off the ball. Its okay, the ball won't explode or float off into space. Notice the solid screens and determined cuts.
                And you do the same. Watch today's game. Away from the ball. Watch Kobe shadow Ray Allen all over the court, running around screens. Watch Ray make determined cuts to get free. Watch the solid screens that Ray uses to get free. Don't worry, your head won't explode if you do that.

                Comment

                • youvalss
                  ******
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 16601

                  #9
                  Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                  It's a matter of opinion. My opinion, there's no such thing as 70's players vs. today's players - as they are. Meaning, if today's players played in the 70's they would all be skinny, some of them wouldn't be picked by the NBA. If 70's players played today they would look like today's players.

                  I think that you can compare athleticism and fundamentals (not game style though, because just like built - it has changed), but you can't compare built. Just like you can't compare cell phone with the first phones in the early 1900's.

                  I also believe that 70's player would work on other areas if played today. Today's game doesn't take much of a great post game - like the old-school centers, and you don't need to be a sharp shooter to succeed, because today's game is built more on athleticism rather than shooting J's all game.

                  You can say that many of the old-school players weren't as athletic as today's players. But then again, some of them wouldn't seem athletic because they didn't need to use athleticism, and therefore you wouldn't be able to see it even if they had it. I think that Dr. J (and maybe some others) has changed the game, changed the concept of a basketball player, but it took years for players to become what they are today.
                  My Specs:

                  ZX Spectrum
                  CPU: Z80 @ 3.5 MHz
                  GPU: Monochrome display
                  RAM: 48 KB
                  OS: Sinclair BASIC

                  Comment

                  • wwharton
                    *ll St*r
                    • Aug 2002
                    • 26949

                    #10
                    Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                    Originally posted by youvalss
                    It's a matter of opinion. My opinion, there's no such thing as 70's players vs. today's players - as they are. Meaning, if today's players played in the 70's they would all be skinny, some of them wouldn't be picked by the NBA. If 70's players played today they would look like today's players.

                    I think that you can compare athleticism and fundamentals (not game style though, because just like built - it has changed), but you can't compare built. Just like you can't compare cell phone with the first phones in the early 1900's.

                    I also believe that 70's player would work on other areas if played today. Today's game doesn't take much of a great post game - like the old-school centers, and you don't need to be a sharp shooter to succeed, because today's game is built more on athleticism rather than shooting J's all game.

                    You can say that many of the old-school players weren't as athletic as today's players. But then again, some of them wouldn't seem athletic because they didn't need to use athleticism, and therefore you wouldn't be able to see it even if they had it. I think that Dr. J (and maybe some others) has changed the game, changed the concept of a basketball player, but it took years for players to become what they are today.
                    Yeah, this is my problem with these type of comparisons. Back in the 70's guys didn't have advanced training facilities and knowledge of how to best maximize the potential of their body... starting back in high school. They didn't have film breaking down every situation and opponent. And as teams figured out ways to get better on offense and defense, eventually the rest of the league figured out a proper counter... the players of yesteryear with great work ethics and a desire to study wouldn't be behind today's players at all.

                    Considering all of that, it's really impossible to say who would and wouldn't be able to play if their career was in the current era or vice versa. All I'd be willing to say is there are definitely players that could do it, and a number of them.

                    Comment

                    • DJ2Kay
                      Rookie
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 37

                      #11
                      Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                      these old players wouldn't do ****. bill russel would be a bench warmer, along with wilt.

                      Bird would still be good. people around his era would still be good, but not AS good..
                      KYRIE IRVING

                      Comment

                      • DJ2Kay
                        Rookie
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 37

                        #12
                        Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                        everyone that thinks that bill russel would average 20 rebounds in todays game is an idiot, and whoever thinks that oscar would average a triple double is also dumb. all the players that were around when they played were little *** white guys.

                        Nowadays players are A LOT more athletic..players back then didn't even train like they do today..
                        KYRIE IRVING

                        Comment

                        • spit_bubble
                          MVP
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 3292

                          #13
                          Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                          If you asked Kobe to play a full game, let alone a full season, in some Chuck Taylors he'd look at you like you were crazy.
                          All ties severed...

                          Comment

                          • RedSceptile
                            MVP
                            • Jun 2011
                            • 3680

                            #14
                            Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                            Originally posted by DJ2Kay
                            these old players wouldn't do ****. bill russel would be a bench warmer, along with wilt.

                            Bird would still be good. people around his era would still be good, but not AS good..
                            Spoiler

                            Comment

                            • Drewski
                              Basketball Reasons
                              • Jun 2011
                              • 3783

                              #15
                              Re: Old School vs. today...you can't be serious

                              Originally posted by DJ2Kay
                              these old players wouldn't do ****. bill russel would be a bench warmer, along with wilt.

                              Bird would still be good. people around his era would still be good, but not AS good..
                              I hate feeding trolls but.

                              <object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rCWrGWuU2Ak?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rCWrGWuU2Ak?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

                              And I'll leave it at that.

                              Great discussion here, anyway.
                              Follow me on Twitter@DrewGarrisonSBN

                              Comment

                              Working...